impossible to manual focus at night

sumofallfears · Sep 27, 2016

turned liveview setting effects off. ISO 6400, at night using street lights on model. viewfinder is full of visible grain when magnifying to check focus. USELESS.

manual focus sucks on an EVF at night.

I have to slide the focus ring back and forth and take like 5 photos and hope I get one in focus.

This camera's autofocus craps out when it gets dark.

Only option would have been to raise the ISO past 6400 and let the Dynamic range suffer more than it needed too.

osv · Sep 27, 2016

so did you like it better with "setting effect:OFF"?

alextardif · Sep 27, 2016

What camera? What lens?

sumofallfears · Sep 27, 2016

osv said:
so did you like it better with "setting effect:OFF"?

--
dan

I turned setting effect off because I was using a off camera flash.

reason I have it off is because when not using flash I shoot -2 stops under exposed and the focus peak does not work that far under exposed.

I hope the a7rIII is better. Should just work

osv · Sep 27, 2016

the better sensor on the a7rii should help, but lenses and setting effects also makes a difference.

the laea4 for instance keeps the lens wide open all the time, only stops down to take the shot.

PVCdroid · Sep 28, 2016

alextardif said:
What camera? What lens?

tn1krr · Sep 28, 2016

osv said:
the better sensor on the a7rii should help, but lenses and setting effects also makes a difference.

the laea4 for instance keeps the lens wide open all the time, only stops down to take the shot.

"Setting Effect off" with manual focus keeps a native lens wide open during focus too, if one is using a lens with electronic aperture. One of the reasons I have not bought any Zeiss Loxias (manual aperture only): if you shoot stopped down in dark conditions with flash you do not get automatical wide open focus. In this sense for example a smart-adapted Zeiss ZE lens is better match to an A7-series camera than a Loxia is.

Fast lens helps too since you get more light for wide open focus ==> less grain and better refresh in EVF. If I compare my FE 70-200/4 @ 135 mm with my Zeiss ZE APO 135/2 there is a world of difference in EVF quality (MF, Setting effect off) in low light due to Zeiss Being 2 stops faster. A faster lens gives a thinner DoF during wide open focus ==> easier to place focal place + more accurate focus peaking.

For very very dark conditions setting "Creative style" to B/W may help as it makes color noise less distracting and makes colored peaking more visible; that is if you can get any peaking from where you are focusing.

Put a fast lens with electronic aperture into A7R II and with the superb sensor and stabilized EVF there pretty much is nothing better available for handheld lowlight manual focus. Not saying there is no grain, of cource there is in very dark conditions, but there really is no better solution in existence.

JelleNL · Sep 28, 2016

I stumbled into the same problem a few nights ago when photographing the (rather faint) northern lights. Only noise in the viewfinder or on the screen. But then I started paying attention to the information on the screen. It actually shows you what distance focus is at and surprisingly it seemed to be accurate. I used the FE16-35/4 and FE24-70/4 on F4 on the A7 and both go quite a bit past infinity, but when I focussed them to the point where the 'meters/feet' marker went over to the 'infinity' marker I got perfect sharpness at infinity (trees on the horizon). I haven't experimented more with this, but you could give that a try.

--
JelleNL

http://www.jelledobma.photography

Bobo Hodls · Sep 28, 2016

The A7Rm2's EVF in this regard is also a pain. Color noise is horrid, looking past that is difficult (though like anything, one gets used to it). Attaining MF on stars or the city across the river takes some racking focus intent.

Your situation asks so much more of the EVF, and while I don't find it impossible to attain MF I'm not surprised you do.

Other than using LED lighting instead of strobes, would using a small LED panel, flashlight, or laser pointer be useful just for setting focus, or would that be too tedious a slow down for the session?

--
...Bob, NYC
.
"Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't." - Chief Dan George, Little Big Man
.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobtullis/
http://www.bobtullis.com
.

biza43 · Sep 28, 2016

Well, in the end it's better than with an OVF...

chironNYC · Sep 28, 2016

tn1krr said:
osv said:

the better sensor on the a7rii should help, but lenses and setting effects also makes a difference.

the laea4 for instance keeps the lens wide open all the time, only stops down to take the shot.

Click to expand...

"Setting Effect off" with manual focus keeps a native lens wide open during focus too, if one is using a lens with electronic aperture. One of the reasons I have not bought any Zeiss Loxias (manual aperture only): if you shoot stopped down in dark conditions with flash you do not get automatical wide open focus. In this sense for example a smart-adapted Zeiss ZE lens is better match to an A7-series camera than a Loxia is.

Fast lens helps too since you get more light for wide open focus ==> less grain and better refresh in EVF. If I compare my FE 70-200/4 @ 135 mm with my Zeiss ZE APO 135/2 there is a world of difference in EVF quality (MF, Setting effect off) in low light due to Zeiss Being 2 stops faster. A faster lens gives a thinner DoF during wide open focus ==> easier to place focal place + more accurate focus peaking.

For very very dark conditions setting "Creative style" to B/W may help as it makes color noise less distracting and makes colored peaking more visible; that is if you can get any peaking from where you are focusing.

Put a fast lens with electronic aperture into A7R II and with the superb sensor and stabilized EVF there pretty much is nothing better available for handheld lowlight manual focus. Not saying there is no grain, of cource there is in very dark conditions, but there really is no better solution in existence.

I am just getting to know the Sony system, and I am very interested to understand the issue of focusing aperture.

With the a6300 or the a7r2, do Batis lenses focus wide open or at the shooting aperture? If the latter, which similar lenses would focus wide open rather than at the shooting aperture? And, how does the camera (e.g., setteng effect) have to be set to get wide open focusing?

zackiedawg · Sep 28, 2016

I'm not sure which camera you were using, but many of the newer Sony models have a mode called 'bright monitoring'...you can assign it to a quick access button or the Fn menu. It will automatically turn live view settings to off even if you have them on, and will gain up the ISO and massively slow the shutter speed to give you a brightened view in night conditions when in manual focus mode...it's quite helpful for having a one-button access to a mode that gains up and slows shutter to help focus and compose better.

tn1krr · Sep 28, 2016

chironNYC said:
tn1krr said:

osv said:

the better sensor on the a7rii should help, but lenses and setting effects also makes a difference.

the laea4 for instance keeps the lens wide open all the time, only stops down to take the shot.

Click to expand...

"Setting Effect off" with manual focus keeps a native lens wide open during focus too, if one is using a lens with electronic aperture. One of the reasons I have not bought any Zeiss Loxias (manual aperture only): if you shoot stopped down in dark conditions with flash you do not get automatical wide open focus. In this sense for example a smart-adapted Zeiss ZE lens is better match to an A7-series camera than a Loxia is.

Fast lens helps too since you get more light for wide open focus ==> less grain and better refresh in EVF. If I compare my FE 70-200/4 @ 135 mm with my Zeiss ZE APO 135/2 there is a world of difference in EVF quality (MF, Setting effect off) in low light due to Zeiss Being 2 stops faster. A faster lens gives a thinner DoF during wide open focus ==> easier to place focal place + more accurate focus peaking.

For very very dark conditions setting "Creative style" to B/W may help as it makes color noise less distracting and makes colored peaking more visible; that is if you can get any peaking from where you are focusing.

Put a fast lens with electronic aperture into A7R II and with the superb sensor and stabilized EVF there pretty much is nothing better available for handheld lowlight manual focus. Not saying there is no grain, of cource there is in very dark conditions, but there really is no better solution in existence.

Click to expand...

I am just getting to know the Sony system, and I am very interested to understand the issue of focusing aperture.

With the a6300 or the a7r2, do Batis lenses focus wide open or at the shooting aperture? If the latter, which similar lenses would focus wide open rather than at the shooting aperture? And, how does the camera (e.g., setteng effect) have to be set to get wide open focusing?

Talked only about manual focus in above. The key point was that you will need the electronic aperture to make use of Live View Setting in getting better EVF quality; with a manual aperture lens there is no way to let more light to the sensor on the fly and only stop down to take the shot. The camera can push the gain for the EVF, but that will effective make EVF run on "higher ISO" ==> more noise vs. lens remaining wide open.

As for AF, an A7R II (this is my only E Mount Body currently) with the Batis 85 opens up to autofocus, regardless of Live View Setting being on or off. Not sure if it opens fully, but it open up a lot, at least to around F/2 - F/2.2. This will obviously open the risk of focus shift when shooting stopped down, but there seems to be some mechanism to avoid this; propably a small CDAF step in after the lens have been stopped down.

Biggest gripe with A/R II focusing is that that with AF-C the lens will remain stopped down after initial "green"/lock has been acquired (regardless of Setting effect being on or off) leading to less light being passed into the sensor during tracking ==> lesser AF-C/tracking performance (vs. AF-S or when compared to a similar lens in a high end DSLR) in very low light.

It has been said that some lenses focus always stopped down even with A7R II, for example the GM 85/1.4, but I have not had a chance to personally test those lenses so I cannot be sure.

sumofallfears · Sep 28, 2016

zackiedawg said:
I'm not sure which camera you were using, but many of the newer Sony models have a mode called 'bright monitoring'...you can assign it to a quick access button or the Fn menu. It will automatically turn live view settings to off even if you have them on, and will gain up the ISO and massively slow the shutter speed to give you a brightened view in night conditions when in manual focus mode...it's quite helpful for having a one-button access to a mode that gains up and slows shutter to help focus and compose better.

tn1krr · Sep 28, 2016

sumofallfears said:
zackiedawg said:

I'm not sure which camera you were using, but many of the newer Sony models have a mode called 'bright monitoring'...you can assign it to a quick access button or the Fn menu. It will automatically turn live view settings to off even if you have them on, and will gain up the ISO and massively slow the shutter speed to give you a brightened view in night conditions when in manual focus mode...it's quite helpful for having a one-button access to a mode that gains up and slows shutter to help focus and compose better.

--
Justin
galleries: www.pbase.com/zackiedawg

Click to expand...

You're assuming I don't know how to use my a7rII or a6300, or that I'm not aware of the features on it.

No, your suggestion would not fix the issue.

I just started really manual focusing and using non-native lenses after a year of owning my a7rII which is why I just run into this issue I encountered in my OP.

If non-native means using lens without electronic connectivity & electronic aperture then you are quite out of luck as if you shoot stopped down a lot I explained in an earlier reply, there is just not enough light available for noisefree EVF. Too few photons per pixel. And a future camera model will not really change this, at least nowhere near as drastically as using a fast lens with electronic aperture

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58415890

zackiedawg · Sep 28, 2016

sumofallfears said:
You're assuming I don't know how to use my a7rII or a6300, or that I'm not aware of the features on it.

No, your suggestion would not fix the issue.

I just started really manual focusing and using non-native lenses after a year of owning my a7rII which is why I just run into this issue I encountered in my OP.

I didn't make any assumptions - I didn't have information from your original post that you were using an A7RII, or that you were using non-native lenses...and there's never any way to know if a person knows of every single feature a camera has...which is why I asked if you had known about or used 'bright monitoring'.

More than once on these forums, I've casually mentioned a mode or feature assuming everyone knows about it, and gotten replies asking about the mode - from forum members who had been here years and shot with the camera for months and even years. MFNR is a common one, or the fact that DRO and HDR have manual stop settings from 1 to 6, which a surprising number of folks don't realize. I can tell you now if I started shooting video tomorrow with my A6300, I would be completely clueless as to what features and settings the camera has, despite shooting with it for 6 months. So there's no way to know if you had been familiar with 'bright monitoring' mode.

Don't take everything as a slight on your knowledge or experience - I just offered a comment about the mode because it hadn't been mentioned yet, and just wanted to cover all bases in an effort to help. Knowing you are using non-native lenses, that indeed addresses the reason you're having the issue.

PVCdroid · Sep 28, 2016

sumofallfears said:
zackiedawg said:

I'm not sure which camera you were using, but many of the newer Sony models have a mode called 'bright monitoring'...you can assign it to a quick access button or the Fn menu. It will automatically turn live view settings to off even if you have them on, and will gain up the ISO and massively slow the shutter speed to give you a brightened view in night conditions when in manual focus mode...it's quite helpful for having a one-button access to a mode that gains up and slows shutter to help focus and compose better.

Click to expand...

Mathieu18 · Sep 28, 2016

Well what lens and aperture were you trying to focus with? Non native lenses generally have stop down metering, that's a lens issue. If it's as dark as you make it sound a lot of cameras would have trouble with AF, and there isn't a better MF solution out there, so you might just be past the point of current tech. I use manual flash a lot so always have setting effect off. I agree it can get grainy, but unless you want to get a strobe with a modeling lamp you're out of luck (and blaming the camera for trying to use it beyond its limits.) Its a camera, not a night vision goggle.

sumofallfears said:
zackiedawg said:

I'm not sure which camera you were using, but many of the newer Sony models have a mode called 'bright monitoring'...you can assign it to a quick access button or the Fn menu. It will automatically turn live view settings to off even if you have them on, and will gain up the ISO and massively slow the shutter speed to give you a brightened view in night conditions when in manual focus mode...it's quite helpful for having a one-button access to a mode that gains up and slows shutter to help focus and compose better.

Click to expand...

Tristimulus · Sep 28, 2016

Focusing at night.

Setting effect off. Find a suitable target to focus on (dark on dark makes no one happy).

If really dark open up to full aperture, set the ISO quite high and the finder image will become a bit brighter. Reset the camera and take the image when perfect focus is found (professionals always find ways and workarounds when needed).

Take a lot of low light images and have never had problems focusing after getting a camera with EVF (optical viewfinders are much harder to use if wanting pinpoint focus). Am into nightscapes (from city to rural) and astrophotography. My images have pinpoint sharpness but at times getting perfect focus require some knowledge and some added effort.

Would never trade my EVF for an OVF. Just mentioning...

Philnw2 · Sep 28, 2016

sumofallfears said:
turned liveview setting effects off. ISO 6400, at night using street lights on model. viewfinder is full of visible grain when magnifying to check focus. USELESS.

manual focus sucks on an EVF at night.

I have to slide the focus ring back and forth and take like 5 photos and hope I get one in focus.

This camera's autofocus craps out when it gets dark.

Only option would have been to raise the ISO past 6400 and let the Dynamic range suffer more than it needed too.

I have experienced the same thing myself. These tips will help

1. Turn on your Focus assist light. Unforunately, this focus assist light will not function with adapted lenses - even a-mount lenses - why Sony? But if you are using e-mount lenses, the focus assist light will really help in my experience.

2. Carry a strong flashlight and shine the light on whatever you are trying to focus on. Then Manually focus on that object

3. If trying to focus on infinity, like stars at night or distant light, i just manually focus until the star or distant light is the smallest pinpoint possible.

The OP is exactly right, but even DSLRs will have problems with extreme conditions like this. Carrying a flashlight is almost mandatory anyway to find your way and to help adjust your camera and tripod. So use it for focusing manually as well.

impossible to manual focus at night

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