Proper exposure - using histogram & zebras

thewoz · Feb 27, 2016

hi,

i have to say I've been bitten by the photography bug.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

This morning I set a subject in front of a window. A challenge I face all the time. Taking pictures of people with the sun behind them.

Because im a newbie I figured that if I turn on Zebras, I could dial the exposure compensation until at least my subject didn't have any zebras. I also looked at the histogram.

2 things I heard, and correct them if they're wrong:

1) it's OK for some things that are bright behind your subjects to have zebras as long as your subject doesn't have any.

2) in the color histogram you want your spikes in the center (but I also heard to move them to the right)

To test this I took this picture

a50511f72bdd497b8bf6d01c8882294a.jpg.png

So to my eyes the top picture looks better. But the book had zebras. I can see the lines moved to the right. Exposure comp was +1

The bottom one looks a bit too dark, but the lines are more in the center and the book didn't have any zebras and exposure compensation I left in the middle.

Aperture proprity, ISO was on auto.

So is the picture at the top the one that is properly exposed? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

LynniePad · Feb 27, 2016

I'd say that somewhere between them would be OK. Both should be recoverable PP from raw, but I'd actually be think of using a little flash for that situation; that way you could have a bit of sky as well as the bright subject.

Can you set the Zebra level in your Panansonic? With my Sonys, I set zebra to 95% and just look for a touch of striping in the sky or whatever is the brightest part of the image.

thewoz · Feb 27, 2016

LynniePad said:
I'd say that somewhere between them would be OK. Both should be recoverable PP from raw, but I'd actually be think of using a little flash for that situation; that way you could have a bit of sky as well as the bright subject.

Can you set the Zebra level in your Panansonic? With my Sonys, I set zebra to 95% and just look for a touch of striping in the sky or whatever is the brightest part of the image.

Yes. I can set everything. Actually I just realized there's a live histogram view. You can see the histogram as you're taking the picture. Flash is a good idea for that. Usually I avoid flash, but for this case you're right

im also trying to crack the night photo dilemma. If I take a picture of a city at night for instance. After 1600 it's just too noisy for my taste. I want to keep it at 800 if possible. But I don't want the shutter to open longer than 1/10 because I can't keep it steady longer than that. 3200 ISO is the easiest to do. But the sky is noisy.

Trying to keep the histogram trending left but not all the way left.

i wish I had a faster lens.

Gerry Winterbourne · Feb 27, 2016

thewoz said:
I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

You need to decide if you mean you want those great looking pictures straight from the camera or after you've developed them. For some shots there's not much difference but for the kind you've shown below there are different approaches.

thewoz said:
This morning I set a subject in front of a window. A challenge I face all the time. Taking pictures of people with the sun behind them. Because I'm a newbie I figured that if I turn on Zebras, I could dial the exposure compensation until at least my subject didn't have any zebras. I also looked at the histogram.

That's a good way of working but, as you've realised, there are a few wrinkles to it.

thewoz said:
2 things I heard, and correct them if they're wrong:

1) it's OK for some things that are bright behind your subjects to have zebras as long as your subject doesn't have any.

That's sort of true. If you want the main subject to look good straight from the camera you sometimes have to accept blown highlights in the background. But most pictures look better if the highlights aren't blown. If you wind down exposure to protect the highlights the main subject will look too dark; but if you shoot raw most cameras accept quite a lot of brightening in the shadows.

thewoz said:
2) in the color histogram you want your spikes in the center

Not as a general principle. Whether you use the RGB histogram or the luminance histogram there's no ideal position for the peaks. If the picture is mainly of bright things the peaks will be towards the right; if it is mainly of dark things they'll be to the left. As it happens a lot of ordinary scenes do peak in the middle but that's chance, not a virtue.

thewoz said:
(but I also heard to move them to the right)

I think you're talking about the technique called Expose to the Right (ETTR). This is where you increase exposure so that the histogram just reaches - but doesn't pass - the right-hand end. This puts as much light on the sensor as it's possible to use without clipping highlights so it minimises noise; but it can make the whole image too bright as it comes from the camera.

As with reducing exposure to preserve highlights, this doesn't really work when you want good results straight from the camera but it's easy enough to darken things if you develop your photos.

The principle I've just described can be used with either the luminance or RGB histograms. For many ordinary scenes it doesn't make a significant difference but when (as below) you have areas of vivid colours like the red flowers you should use RGB because it warns when individual channels start to clip.

thewoz said:
To test this I took this picture

I'll now relate them to what I've said.

thewoz said:
So to my eyes the top picture looks better. But the book had zebras. I can see the lines moved to the right. Exposure comp was +1

That's true - for a straight out-of-camera shot it looks better, and if that's the way you want to work it's fine. However, you can see vertical lines at the ends of the histograms. That means they've gone pat the right so all the channels are clipped - in other words, it's not just the bright background that's overcooked. The result of clipping any channel is that you lose detail and texture in it.

thewoz said:
The bottom one looks a bit too dark,

It is. Even from JPG it's not too dark to brighten the shadows but it's safer to do that from raw (but it's up to you if you want that safety). If you do open up the mid-tones and shadows you'll get the important bits to look right without losing detail and without clipping the background highlights.

thewoz said:
but the lines are more in the center

As I said, being in the centre isn't a big deal. What is important is that you've lost those past-the-right verticals.

You see a past-the-left vertical on the B histogram in both shots, although it's higher in the second. That means you've lost some detail in the darkest shadows which probably doesn't matter; but if it does matter that's where you get a benefit from hooting raw.

thewoz said:
and the book didn't have any zebras and exposure compensation I left in the middle.

Zebras are just a way of showing where the luminance histogram goes past the right, so this confirms what the histograms show us.

thewoz said:
Aperture priority, ISO was on auto.

So is the picture at the top the one that is properly exposed?

Yes and no - read more below ...

thewoz said:
Sorry if this is a stupid question.

... it's not at all stupid. People get into a tangle about what "proper exposure" means. As I said above, it all depends on the way you want to work. I dealt with a similar question a while back http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56560644

--
---
Gerry
___________________________________________
First camera 1953, first Pentax 1985, first DSLR 2006

Galleries by Gerry Winterbourne

www.pbase.com

[email protected]

thewoz · Feb 27, 2016

Gerry Winterbourne said:
thewoz said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

Click to expand...

You need to decide if you mean you want those great looking pictures straight from the camera or after you've developed them. For some shots there's not much difference but for the kind you've shown below there are different approaches.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

This morning I set a subject in front of a window. A challenge I face all the time. Taking pictures of people with the sun behind them. Because I'm a newbie I figured that if I turn on Zebras, I could dial the exposure compensation until at least my subject didn't have any zebras. I also looked at the histogram.

Click to expand...

That's a good way of working but, as you've realised, there are a few wrinkles to it.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

2 things I heard, and correct them if they're wrong:

1) it's OK for some things that are bright behind your subjects to have zebras as long as your subject doesn't have any.

Click to expand...

That's sort of true. If you want the main subject to look good straight from the camera you sometimes have to accept blown highlights in the background. But most pictures look better if the highlights aren't blown. If you wind down exposure to protect the highlights the main subject will look too dark; but if you shoot raw most cameras accept quite a lot of brightening in the shadows.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

2) in the color histogram you want your spikes in the center

Click to expand...

Not as a general principle. Whether you use the RGB histogram or the luminance histogram there's no ideal position for the peaks. If the picture is mainly of bright things the peaks will be towards the right; if it is mainly of dark things they'll be to the left. As it happens a lot of ordinary scenes do peak in the middle but that's chance, not a virtue.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

(but I also heard to move them to the right)

Click to expand...

I think you're talking about the technique called Expose to the Right (ETTR). This is where you increase exposure so that the histogram just reaches - but doesn't pass - the right-hand end. This puts as much light on the sensor as it's possible to use without clipping highlights so it minimises noise; but it can make the whole image too bright as it comes from the camera.

As with reducing exposure to preserve highlights, this doesn't really work when you want good results straight from the camera but it's easy enough to darken things if you develop your photos.

The principle I've just described can be used with either the luminance or RGB histograms. For many ordinary scenes it doesn't make a significant difference but when (as below) you have areas of vivid colours like the red flowers you should use RGB because it warns when individual channels start to clip.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

To test this I took this picture

Click to expand...

I'll now relate them to what I've said.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

So to my eyes the top picture looks better. But the book had zebras. I can see the lines moved to the right. Exposure comp was +1

Click to expand...

That's true - for a straight out-of-camera shot it looks better, and if that's the way you want to work it's fine. However, you can see vertical lines at the ends of the histograms. That means they've gone pat the right so all the channels are clipped - in other words, it's not just the bright background that's overcooked. The result of clipping any channel is that you lose detail and texture in it.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

The bottom one looks a bit too dark,

Click to expand...

It is. Even from JPG it's not too dark to brighten the shadows but it's safer to do that from raw (but it's up to you if you want that safety). If you do open up the mid-tones and shadows you'll get the important bits to look right without losing detail and without clipping the background highlights.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

but the lines are more in the center

Click to expand...

As I said, being in the centre isn't a big deal. What is important is that you've lost those past-the-right verticals.

You see a past-the-left vertical on the B histogram in both shots, although it's higher in the second. That means you've lost some detail in the darkest shadows which probably doesn't matter; but if it does matter that's where you get a benefit from hooting raw.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

and the book didn't have any zebras and exposure compensation I left in the middle.

Click to expand...

Zebras are just a way of showing where the luminance histogram goes past the right, so this confirms what the histograms show us.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

Aperture priority, ISO was on auto.

So is the picture at the top the one that is properly exposed?

Click to expand...

Yes and no - read more below ...

Gerry Winterbourne said:

Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Click to expand...

... it's not at all stupid. People get into a tangle about what "proper exposure" means. As I said above, it all depends on the way you want to work. I dealt with a similar question a while back http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56560644

--
---
Gerry
___________________________________________
First camera 1953, first Pentax 1985, first DSLR 2006
http://www.pbase.com/gerrywinterbourne
[email protected]

That's right. I see now. The spikes on the right.

GeorgianBay1939 · Feb 27, 2016

thewoz said:
hi,

i have to say I've been bitten by the photography bug.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

Good challenge, join the crowd!

When I was at that stage I was encouraged to shoot raw. That really got me going on the subject of exposure and brightening!

Check out: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8148042898/exposure-vs-brightening That will help to prevent misunderstanding the many false interpretations of the "Exposure Triangle".

thewoz said:
This morning I set a subject in front of a window. A challenge I face all the time. Taking pictures of people with the sun behind them.

Because im a newbie I figured that if I turn on Zebras, I could dial the exposure compensation until at least my subject didn't have any zebras. I also looked at the histogram.

2 things I heard, and correct them if they're wrong:

1) it's OK for some things that are bright behind your subjects to have zebras as long as your subject doesn't have any.

2) in the color histogram you want your spikes in the center (but I also heard to move them to the right)

If you are going to post process your images, moving your histogram to the right, (without damaging your highlights) , known as ETTR, will help your shadows. See: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6641165460/ettr-exposed

Both of the above articles are very fundamental to getting an optimal Photographic Exposure , resulting in the first step to getting an appropriately bright result.

thewoz said:
To test this I took this picture

So to my eyes the top picture looks better. But the book had zebras. I can see the lines moved to the right. Exposure comp was +1

I set my zebras (FZ1000) to 105 (whatever that means!) and spot meter the highlight until the stripes just begin. Lock my AE(Lock) there, compose/focus and fire an interval [for difficult shots (-1/3, 0 +1/3)]. I use Lightroom 5.6 to convert raw to jpeg and post process, usually the middle one in the bracket.

If you had shot the upper one in raw, I suspect that you could recover the window detail in Lightroom.

thewoz said:
The bottom one looks a bit too dark, but the lines are more in the center and the book didn't have any zebras and exposure compensation I left in the middle.

I find spot metering with AE(lock) to be more precise than metering the whole scene and using EC.

thewoz said:
Aperture proprity, ISO was on auto.

I shoot base ISO 99% of the time. raw. Sometimes I have to push a lot in raw conversion.

thewoz said:
So is the picture at the top the one that is properly exposed? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Good question. It is "properly exposed" but the highlights need to be brought out.

Here is an example of an interior shot from this post in my blog using raw, ETTR with post processing highlight recovery and shadow boosting. NO flash fill.

Good luck. Have fun!

EDIT: I just read Gerry Winterbourne's excellent advice. You might want to think about his more general question.... do you want OOC results or do you want to post process? The "definition" of "proper" exposure varies with that decision.

--
Tom
The best part of growing old is having the opportunity to do so.
https://brtthome.wordpress.com/

Chris R-UK · Feb 27, 2016

Use a tripod for night time shots, especially cityscapes, so that you can use a long shutter speed.

thewoz · Feb 27, 2016

GeorgianBay1939 said:
thewoz said:

hi,

i have to say I've been bitten by the photography bug.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

Click to expand...

Good challenge, join the crowd!

When I was at that stage I was encouraged to shoot raw. That really got me going on the subject of exposure and brightening!

Check out: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8148042898/exposure-vs-brightening That will help to prevent misunderstanding the many false interpretations of the "Exposure Triangle".

GeorgianBay1939 said:

This morning I set a subject in front of a window. A challenge I face all the time. Taking pictures of people with the sun behind them.

Because im a newbie I figured that if I turn on Zebras, I could dial the exposure compensation until at least my subject didn't have any zebras. I also looked at the histogram.

2 things I heard, and correct them if they're wrong:

1) it's OK for some things that are bright behind your subjects to have zebras as long as your subject doesn't have any.

2) in the color histogram you want your spikes in the center (but I also heard to move them to the right)

Click to expand...

If you are going to post process your images, moving your histogram to the right, (without damaging your highlights) , known as ETTR, will help your shadows. See: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6641165460/ettr-exposed

Both of the above articles are very fundamental to getting an optimal Photographic Exposure , resulting in the first step to getting an appropriately bright result.

GeorgianBay1939 said:

To test this I took this picture

So to my eyes the top picture looks better. But the book had zebras. I can see the lines moved to the right. Exposure comp was +1

Click to expand...

I set my zebras (FZ1000) to 105 (whatever that means!) and spot meter the highlight until the stripes just begin. Lock my AE(Lock) there, compose/focus and fire an interval [for difficult shots (-1/3, 0 +1/3)]. I use Lightroom 5.6 to convert raw to jpeg and post process, usually the middle one in the bracket.

If you had shot the upper one in raw, I suspect that you could recover the window detail in Lightroom.

GeorgianBay1939 said:

The bottom one looks a bit too dark, but the lines are more in the center and the book didn't have any zebras and exposure compensation I left in the middle.

Click to expand...

I find spot metering with AE(lock) to be more precise than metering the whole scene and using EC.

GeorgianBay1939 said:

Aperture proprity, ISO was on auto.

Click to expand...

I shoot base ISO 99% of the time. raw. Sometimes I have to push a lot in raw conversion.

GeorgianBay1939 said:

So is the picture at the top the one that is properly exposed? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Click to expand...

Good question. It is "properly exposed" but the highlights need to be brought out.

Here is an example of an interior shot from this post in my blog using raw, ETTR with post processing highlight recovery and shadow boosting. NO flash fill.

Good luck. Have fun!

EDIT: I just read Gerry Winterbourne's excellent advice. You might want to think about his more general question.... do you want OOC results or do you want to post process? The "definition" of "proper" exposure varies with that decision.

--
Tom
The best part of growing old is having the opportunity to do so.
https://brtthome.wordpress.com/

This is good thanks. What a great hobby. I wish I had found photography earlier. I guess my summer break will be fun.

GeorgianBay1939 · Feb 27, 2016

thewoz said:
GeorgianBay1939 said:

thewoz said:

hi,

i have to say I've been bitten by the photography bug.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

Click to expand...

Good challenge, join the crowd!

When I was at that stage I was encouraged to shoot raw. That really got me going on the subject of exposure and brightening!

Check out: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8148042898/exposure-vs-brightening That will help to prevent misunderstanding the many false interpretations of the "Exposure Triangle".

thewoz said:

This morning I set a subject in front of a window. A challenge I face all the time. Taking pictures of people with the sun behind them.

Because im a newbie I figured that if I turn on Zebras, I could dial the exposure compensation until at least my subject didn't have any zebras. I also looked at the histogram.

2 things I heard, and correct them if they're wrong:

1) it's OK for some things that are bright behind your subjects to have zebras as long as your subject doesn't have any.

2) in the color histogram you want your spikes in the center (but I also heard to move them to the right)

Click to expand...

If you are going to post process your images, moving your histogram to the right, (without damaging your highlights) , known as ETTR, will help your shadows. See: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6641165460/ettr-exposed

Both of the above articles are very fundamental to getting an optimal Photographic Exposure , resulting in the first step to getting an appropriately bright result.

thewoz said:

To test this I took this picture

So to my eyes the top picture looks better. But the book had zebras. I can see the lines moved to the right. Exposure comp was +1

Click to expand...

I set my zebras (FZ1000) to 105 (whatever that means!) and spot meter the highlight until the stripes just begin. Lock my AE(Lock) there, compose/focus and fire an interval [for difficult shots (-1/3, 0 +1/3)]. I use Lightroom 5.6 to convert raw to jpeg and post process, usually the middle one in the bracket.

If you had shot the upper one in raw, I suspect that you could recover the window detail in Lightroom.

thewoz said:

The bottom one looks a bit too dark, but the lines are more in the center and the book didn't have any zebras and exposure compensation I left in the middle.

Click to expand...

I find spot metering with AE(lock) to be more precise than metering the whole scene and using EC.

thewoz said:

Aperture proprity, ISO was on auto.

Click to expand...

I shoot base ISO 99% of the time. raw. Sometimes I have to push a lot in raw conversion.

thewoz said:

So is the picture at the top the one that is properly exposed? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Click to expand...

Good question. It is "properly exposed" but the highlights need to be brought out.

Here is an example of an interior shot from this post in my blog using raw, ETTR with post processing highlight recovery and shadow boosting. NO flash fill.

Good luck. Have fun!

EDIT: I just read Gerry Winterbourne's excellent advice. You might want to think about his more general question.... do you want OOC results or do you want to post process? The "definition" of "proper" exposure varies with that decision.

--
Tom
The best part of growing old is having the opportunity to do so.
https://brtthome.wordpress.com/

Click to expand...

This is good thanks. What a great hobby. I wish I had found photography earlier. I guess my summer break will be fun.

I got into it about 10 years ago when I was 66 years old. It has been a source of great pleasure to me .... and a good learning experience, keeping some of my cognitive synapses well exercised!!!

--
Tom
The best part of growing old is having the opportunity to do so.

Brtthome's Blog

photos, prose, prattle and possibilities

brtthome.wordpress.com

thewoz · Feb 27, 2016

GeorgianBay1939 said:
thewoz said:

GeorgianBay1939 said:

thewoz said:

hi,

i have to say I've been bitten by the photography bug.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

Click to expand...

Good challenge, join the crowd!

When I was at that stage I was encouraged to shoot raw. That really got me going on the subject of exposure and brightening!

Check out: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8148042898/exposure-vs-brightening That will help to prevent misunderstanding the many false interpretations of the "Exposure Triangle".

GeorgianBay1939 said:

This morning I set a subject in front of a window. A challenge I face all the time. Taking pictures of people with the sun behind them.

Because im a newbie I figured that if I turn on Zebras, I could dial the exposure compensation until at least my subject didn't have any zebras. I also looked at the histogram.

2 things I heard, and correct them if they're wrong:

1) it's OK for some things that are bright behind your subjects to have zebras as long as your subject doesn't have any.

2) in the color histogram you want your spikes in the center (but I also heard to move them to the right)

Click to expand...

If you are going to post process your images, moving your histogram to the right, (without damaging your highlights) , known as ETTR, will help your shadows. See: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6641165460/ettr-exposed

Both of the above articles are very fundamental to getting an optimal Photographic Exposure , resulting in the first step to getting an appropriately bright result.

GeorgianBay1939 said:

To test this I took this picture

So to my eyes the top picture looks better. But the book had zebras. I can see the lines moved to the right. Exposure comp was +1

Click to expand...

I set my zebras (FZ1000) to 105 (whatever that means!) and spot meter the highlight until the stripes just begin. Lock my AE(Lock) there, compose/focus and fire an interval [for difficult shots (-1/3, 0 +1/3)]. I use Lightroom 5.6 to convert raw to jpeg and post process, usually the middle one in the bracket.

If you had shot the upper one in raw, I suspect that you could recover the window detail in Lightroom.

GeorgianBay1939 said:

The bottom one looks a bit too dark, but the lines are more in the center and the book didn't have any zebras and exposure compensation I left in the middle.

Click to expand...

I find spot metering with AE(lock) to be more precise than metering the whole scene and using EC.

GeorgianBay1939 said:

Aperture proprity, ISO was on auto.

Click to expand...

I shoot base ISO 99% of the time. raw. Sometimes I have to push a lot in raw conversion.

GeorgianBay1939 said:

So is the picture at the top the one that is properly exposed? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Click to expand...

Good question. It is "properly exposed" but the highlights need to be brought out.

Here is an example of an interior shot from this post in my blog using raw, ETTR with post processing highlight recovery and shadow boosting. NO flash fill.

Good luck. Have fun!

EDIT: I just read Gerry Winterbourne's excellent advice. You might want to think about his more general question.... do you want OOC results or do you want to post process? The "definition" of "proper" exposure varies with that decision.

--
Tom
The best part of growing old is having the opportunity to do so.
https://brtthome.wordpress.com/

Click to expand...

This is good thanks. What a great hobby. I wish I had found photography earlier. I guess my summer break will be fun.

Click to expand...

I got into it about 10 years ago when I was 66 years old. It has been a source of great pleasure to me .... and a good learning experience, keeping some of my cognitive synapses well exercised!!!

--
Tom
The best part of growing old is having the opportunity to do so.
https://brtthome.wordpress.com/

What am I complaining about then! I just turned 39 in October

My pictures aren't good now but at least I'm thinking about the right things.

SoCalWill · Feb 27, 2016

The ideal histogram has data from left to right fully; you can't usually do this by composition, but you can do it in post-processing.

Use a tripod whenever you need, or even want to try, a longer shutter speed.

You'll get more from both/either of these techniques by shooting RAW, if you post-process; your camera is not capable of producing its best picture by itself.

Aberaeron · Feb 27, 2016

thewoz said:
hi,

i have to say I've been bitten by the photography bug.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

This morning I set a subject in front of a window. A challenge I face all the time. Taking pictures of people with the sun behind them.

Because im a newbie I figured that if I turn on Zebras, I could dial the exposure compensation until at least my subject didn't have any zebras. I also looked at the histogram.

2 things I heard, and correct them if they're wrong:

1) it's OK for some things that are bright behind your subjects to have zebras as long as your subject doesn't have any.

2) in the color histogram you want your spikes in the center (but I also heard to move them to the right)

To test this I took this picture

So to my eyes the top picture looks better. But the book had zebras. I can see the lines moved to the right. Exposure comp was +1

The bottom one looks a bit too dark, but the lines are more in the center and the book didn't have any zebras and exposure compensation I left in the middle.

Aperture proprity, ISO was on auto.

So is the picture at the top the one that is properly exposed? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Let's see

Top one 'improved'

Bottom one 'improved'

In 30 seconds using Picassa. Not great but OK. Wouldn't worry about the window, because there's nothing there to see. Probably best not to see whatever there isn't to see in this case.

Flash is the ultimate answer unless you fancy tone mapping or HDR/DRO in-camera, which can be very effective.

GeorgianBay1939 · Feb 27, 2016

thewoz said:
GeorgianBay1939 said:

thewoz said:

GeorgianBay1939 said:

thewoz said:

hi,

i have to say I've been bitten by the photography bug.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

Click to expand...

Good challenge, join the crowd!

When I was at that stage I was encouraged to shoot raw. That really got me going on the subject of exposure and brightening!

Check out: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8148042898/exposure-vs-brightening That will help to prevent misunderstanding the many false interpretations of the "Exposure Triangle".

thewoz said:

This morning I set a subject in front of a window. A challenge I face all the time. Taking pictures of people with the sun behind them.

Because im a newbie I figured that if I turn on Zebras, I could dial the exposure compensation until at least my subject didn't have any zebras. I also looked at the histogram.

2 things I heard, and correct them if they're wrong:

1) it's OK for some things that are bright behind your subjects to have zebras as long as your subject doesn't have any.

2) in the color histogram you want your spikes in the center (but I also heard to move them to the right)

Click to expand...

If you are going to post process your images, moving your histogram to the right, (without damaging your highlights) , known as ETTR, will help your shadows. See: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6641165460/ettr-exposed

Both of the above articles are very fundamental to getting an optimal Photographic Exposure , resulting in the first step to getting an appropriately bright result.

thewoz said:

To test this I took this picture

So to my eyes the top picture looks better. But the book had zebras. I can see the lines moved to the right. Exposure comp was +1

Click to expand...

I set my zebras (FZ1000) to 105 (whatever that means!) and spot meter the highlight until the stripes just begin. Lock my AE(Lock) there, compose/focus and fire an interval [for difficult shots (-1/3, 0 +1/3)]. I use Lightroom 5.6 to convert raw to jpeg and post process, usually the middle one in the bracket.

If you had shot the upper one in raw, I suspect that you could recover the window detail in Lightroom.

thewoz said:

The bottom one looks a bit too dark, but the lines are more in the center and the book didn't have any zebras and exposure compensation I left in the middle.

Click to expand...

I find spot metering with AE(lock) to be more precise than metering the whole scene and using EC.

thewoz said:

Aperture proprity, ISO was on auto.

Click to expand...

I shoot base ISO 99% of the time. raw. Sometimes I have to push a lot in raw conversion.

thewoz said:

So is the picture at the top the one that is properly exposed? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Click to expand...

Good question. It is "properly exposed" but the highlights need to be brought out.

Here is an example of an interior shot from this post in my blog using raw, ETTR with post processing highlight recovery and shadow boosting. NO flash fill.

Good luck. Have fun!

EDIT: I just read Gerry Winterbourne's excellent advice. You might want to think about his more general question.... do you want OOC results or do you want to post process? The "definition" of "proper" exposure varies with that decision.

--
Tom
The best part of growing old is having the opportunity to do so.
https://brtthome.wordpress.com/

Click to expand...

This is good thanks. What a great hobby. I wish I had found photography earlier. I guess my summer break will be fun.

Click to expand...

I got into it about 10 years ago when I was 66 years old. It has been a source of great pleasure to me .... and a good learning experience, keeping some of my cognitive synapses well exercised!!!

--
Tom
The best part of growing old is having the opportunity to do so.
https://brtthome.wordpress.com/

Click to expand...

What am I complaining about then! I just turned 39 in October

My pictures aren't good now but at least I'm thinking about the right things.

Yes, you are. Be sure to get your fundamentals right.

Be very critical of ALL that you read on the internet and in pop photographic magazines, and even in some books.

Good learning here seems to depend on having well developed bs detectors and well developed critical thinking skills!

Most important .... have fun!

--
Tom
The best part of growing old is having the opportunity to do so.

Brtthome's Blog

photos, prose, prattle and possibilities

brtthome.wordpress.com

chuxter · Feb 27, 2016

thewoz said:
LynniePad said:

I'd say that somewhere between them would be OK. Both should be recoverable PP from raw, but I'd actually be think of using a little flash for that situation; that way you could have a bit of sky as well as the bright subject.

Can you set the Zebra level in your Panansonic? With my Sonys, I set zebra to 95% and just look for a touch of striping in the sky or whatever is the brightest part of the image.

Click to expand...

Yes. I can set everything. Actually I just realized there's a live histogram view. You can see the histogram as you're taking the picture. Flash is a good idea for that. Usually I avoid flash, but for this case you're right

If there are glass surfaces in that scene [I think there are?], then flash is difficult to use...especially if you are using the pop-up flash on the camera. If you have a remote flash that can be positioned anywhere, with a few trial shots you can probably get rid of the reflections.

thewoz said:
im also trying to crack the night photo dilemma. If I take a picture of a city at night for instance. After 1600 it's just too noisy for my taste. I want to keep it at 800 if possible. But I don't want the shutter to open longer than 1/10 because I can't keep it steady longer than that. 3200 ISO is the easiest to do. But the sky is noisy.

Shoot RAW. Get a good photo editor. Get a good NR app.

thewoz said:
Trying to keep the histogram trending left but not all the way left.

i wish I had a faster lens.

I wish I had a faster car. Only takes cubic money... ;-)

digidog · Feb 27, 2016

thewoz said:
hi,

So I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

First question: are you shooting JPEG's in-camera or raw? Big difference in how one handles exposure! The Histogram and 'zebras' are based on the JPEG, not the raw so it's important that you tell us which kind of data you're capturing. You can't get ideal, optimized exposure for both at the same time.

digidog · Feb 27, 2016

thewoz said:
That's right. I see now. The spikes on the right.

This video may help:

Everything you thought you wanted to know about Histograms

Another exhaustive 40 minute video examining:

What are histograms. In Photoshop, ACR, Lightroom.

Histograms: clipping color and tones, color spaces and color gamut.

Histogram and Photoshop’s Level’s command.

Histograms don’t tell us our images are good (examples).

Misconceptions about histograms. How they lie.

Histograms and Expose To The Right (ETTR).

Are histograms useful and if so, how?

Low rez (YouTube):

High rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Histogram_Video.mov

mostlyboringphotog · Feb 27, 2016

thewoz said:
hi,

i have to say I've been bitten by the photography bug.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around how to use shutter speed, ISO, aperture, exposure compensation and my zebras to get great looking pictures.

This morning I set a subject in front of a window. A challenge I face all the time. Taking pictures of people with the sun behind them.

Because im a newbie I figured that if I turn on Zebras, I could dial the exposure compensation until at least my subject didn't have any zebras. I also looked at the histogram.

2 things I heard, and correct them if they're wrong:

1) it's OK for some things that are bright behind your subjects to have zebras as long as your subject doesn't have any.

2) in the color histogram you want your spikes in the center (but I also heard to move them to the right)

To test this I took this picture

So to my eyes the top picture looks better. But the book had zebras. I can see the lines moved to the right. Exposure comp was +1

The bottom one looks a bit too dark, but the lines are more in the center and the book didn't have any zebras and exposure compensation I left in the middle.

Aperture proprity, ISO was on auto.

So is the picture at the top the one that is properly exposed? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Also with digital photography, exposure bracketing is almost at no additional cost...

Fotoni · Feb 27, 2016

Technically proper exposure means that you try to put everything to the right side of histogram without clipping anything important. Left side of the histogram is noisy low quality area and only deep shadows should go there. Technically it is mistake to leave a cap before right edge of the histogram because you haven't then used the full potential of the camera sensor, but sometimes one primary color histogram might clip, if other primary color histogram doesn't have cap, so you have to decide which is more important to you. I often shoot three photos with 1/3 EV difference, so that I can make that decision later.

Usually it is best to let zebras become visible on areas which you don't consider important and increase exposure until zebras spread on the important areas. Then you have technically proper exposure. When there is movement on the scene, you can't always do that without blurring the movement, so that is another compromise you have to make. Also Base ISO (often 100 or 125) is usually the best image quality setting and you could try to increase light on the scene before raising ISO.

Proper exposure - using histogram & zebras

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