Shutter Shock - help me understand it (anyone seen Cliff or his notes?)

I read through the 5DSr review recently and kind of skipped over the shutter shock section but then while perusing another forum, I found that the topic popped up there too, in regards to Nikon gear.

I don't own any of the gear in question but it seems like the common denominators are shutter speeds of 1/80-1/30 and with longer focal lengths. Also, apparently Canon's in-lens IS apparently alleviates some of the issue as well whereas SOME Nikon lenses with VR actually make it worse.

Historically, it's been thought that lower megapixel FF sensors had less, or even nothing, to worry about with regards to this issue (hence I never bothered to learn about it as I use the 20mp Canon 6D) but apparently the Nikon D750 (24 mp) proves otherwise and actually had worse results than the D810.

Before I go any further - does it seem like I have all of the info correct thus far? If so...

That brings me to my question... with a Canon 6D, the lenses I own which have "longer" focal lengths would be the Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L IS USM, Canon EF 135mm f/2L USM, and Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6L IS USM.

With the 100L, I will often shoot in the 1/50-1/60 range for portraits, thanks to the IS. Thus far, I haven't noticed any issue with it and that's even with pixel peeping at eyelashes (curiosity got the best of me).

With the 135L, I usually aim for 1/160 or higher unless braced or on a tripod so I can't see it being an issue, for ME, with that lens. But it WOULD be nice to know in case I have an isolated circumstance pop up where I'm actually going to mount it on a tripod and shoot slower shutter speeds.

But the 70-300L is a new lens in my arsenal and this is the one I'm most worried about. I literally picked up this lens less than a week ago so I have basically zero experience here. I can absolutely see me using this lens all the way out to 300mm and in the 1/30-1/80 range. Can anyone offer any insight?

I'm not really going to go looking for a problem, but at the same time, if I can avoid (real, not theorized) issues by avoiding 1/30-1/80, then I definitely will.

Thanks for any insight you folks can offer!

Jonathan Brady said:

I read through the 5DSr review recently and kind of skipped over the shutter shock section but then while perusing another forum, I found that the topic popped up there too, in regards to Nikon gear.

I don't own any of the gear in question but it seems like the common denominators are shutter speeds of 1/80-1/30 and with longer focal lengths. Also, apparently Canon's in-lens IS apparently alleviates some of the issue as well whereas SOME Nikon lenses with VR actually make it worse.

Historically, it's been thought that lower megapixel FF sensors had less, or even nothing, to worry about with regards to this issue (hence I never bothered to learn about it as I use the 20mp Canon 6D) but apparently the Nikon D750 (24 mp) proves otherwise and actually had worse results than the D810.

Before I go any further - does it seem like I have all of the info correct thus far? If so...

That brings me to my question... with a Canon 6D, the lenses I own which have "longer" focal lengths would be the Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L IS USM, Canon EF 135mm f/2L USM, and Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6L IS USM.

With the 100L, I will often shoot in the 1/50-1/60 range for portraits, thanks to the IS. Thus far, I haven't noticed any issue with it and that's even with pixel peeping at eyelashes (curiosity got the best of me).

With the 135L, I usually aim for 1/160 or higher unless braced or on a tripod so I can't see it being an issue, for ME, with that lens. But it WOULD be nice to know in case I have an isolated circumstance pop up where I'm actually going to mount it on a tripod and shoot slower shutter speeds.

But the 70-300L is a new lens in my arsenal and this is the one I'm most worried about. I literally picked up this lens less than a week ago so I have basically zero experience here. I can absolutely see me using this lens all the way out to 300mm and in the 1/30-1/80 range. Can anyone offer any insight?

I'm not really going to go looking for a problem, but at the same time, if I can avoid (real, not theorized) issues by avoiding 1/30-1/80, then I definitely will.

Thanks for any insight you folks can offer!

Click to expand...

Hi Jonathan, You need to test your own equipment. It is not difficult. I have posted some suggestions for the testing schedule on my Camera Ergonomics blog at the link above. I find newspaper classified adverts a useful test target as the print will readily show up any movement during exposure. DSLRs can suffer from loss of sharpness due to mirror slap or shutter shock or both. With the DSLR run your tests using first the OVF then live view.

Good luck

Andrew

Jonathan Brady said:

I don't own any of the gear in question but it seems like the common denominators are shutter speeds of 1/80-1/30 and with longer focal lengths.

Click to expand...

It's actually closer to speeds between 1/30 and 1/2 second when using a moderate zoom or standard lens, and it's camera shake caused by the mirror slap.

Tripods and remotes won't be of much use since it's internal, so if you must shoot between that range of speeds the best way to eliminate blur is with mirror lock up.....

--
"Five out of four people have trouble with fractions."
Regards,
Hank

Hank3152 said:

Jonathan Brady said:

I don't own any of the gear in question but it seems like the common denominators are shutter speeds of 1/80-1/30 and with longer focal lengths.

Click to expand...

It's actually closer to speeds between 1/30 and 1/2 second when using a moderate zoom or standard lens, and it's camera shake caused by the mirror slap.

Click to expand...

That's very interesting. So, the way to avoid this problem, then, is to use a mirrorless camera?

But you do make me curious as to why it's not called mirror-slap shock.

--
gollywop
http://g4.img-dpreview.com/D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg

gollywop said:

Hank3152 said:

Jonathan Brady said:

I don't own any of the gear in question but it seems like the common denominators are shutter speeds of 1/80-1/30 and with longer focal lengths.

Click to expand...

It's actually closer to speeds between 1/30 and 1/2 second when using a moderate zoom or standard lens, and it's camera shake caused by the mirror slap.

Click to expand...

That's very interesting. So, the way to avoid this problem, then, is to use a mirrorless camera?

Click to expand...

I've had success eliminating the shake with a DSLR by using mirror lock up. Not sure if current entry level models have that feature though..........

Hank3152 said:

gollywop said:

Hank3152 said:

Jonathan Brady said:

I don't own any of the gear in question but it seems like the common denominators are shutter speeds of 1/80-1/30 and with longer focal lengths.

Click to expand...

It's actually closer to speeds between 1/30 and 1/2 second when using a moderate zoom or standard lens, and it's camera shake caused by the mirror slap.

Click to expand...

That's very interesting. So, the way to avoid this problem, then, is to use a mirrorless camera?

Click to expand...

I've had success eliminating the shake with a DSLR by using mirror lock up. Not sure if current entry level models have that feature though..........

Click to expand...

But can't I just avoid the whole issue with a mirrorless camera?

And why isn't it called mirror-slap shock?

All mirror and mechanical shutter cameras suffer from it to one degree or another. It is the unavoidable consequence of a dynamic mechanical system and its resonant frequencies. Proper design calls for damping or moving the resonant frequency to a range and magnitude where it does not cause problems. In cameras with super high resolutions the problem becomes more obvious and more difficult to mitigate. For a fundamentally identical problem writ large, YouTube "Tacoma Narrows bridge".

With a 6D, you are overthinking it (not unlike the agonizing and overthinking behind getting a 6D in the first place). Go out and shoot with your new L telefoto zoom. I predict it will be the gateway drug to more L zooms, or the cure to the nothing-but-primes dogma.

--
>> I am already lovin' the Canon EF 35L II lens! <<

Probably because some people kind of morphed several problems together. One is mirror slap. It's called mirror slap. The moving parts of the mirror flapping up out of the way can jiggle things. Going mirrorless does eliminate it. But the other is, indeed, shutter shock. It's caused by movement of the shutter elements. Since mirrorless cameras generally still have moving shutters, mirrorless doesn't solve that part of the problem. And since mirrorless cameras are often smaller and lighter than slr type cameras and/or might be used on smaller, lighter tripod systems, the movements may still cause jiggles. Pretty sure that's not the proper scientific term. That one may be harder to completely eliminate because it's, as noted, internal to the camera and the as built structure of the camera may not control it well.

And kind of left out of the thread question, there is still the related issue of motion induced by poking the shutter release button. It's happening about the same time as the other movements, too. That's eliminated by eliminating the photographer. Or by using a timer or remote release.

Since all of these kind of happen together (or not) but the way any given camera, lens and tripod system will respond and at what shutter speeds they absorb well or poorly can vary, testing is probably a good idea.

Craig Gillette said:

Probably because some people kind of morphed several problems together. One is mirror slap. It's called mirror slap. The moving parts of the mirror flapping up out of the way can jiggle things. Going mirrorless does eliminate it. But the other is, indeed, shutter shock. It's caused by movement of the shutter elements. Since mirrorless cameras generally still have moving shutters, mirrorless doesn't solve that part of the problem. And since mirrorless cameras are often smaller and lighter than slr type cameras and/or might be used on smaller, lighter tripod systems, the movements may still cause jiggles. Pretty sure that's not the proper scientific term. That one may be harder to completely eliminate because it's, as noted, internal to the camera and the as built structure of the camera may not control it well.

Click to expand...

Oh come on, Craig. I was trying to have a bit of fun with Hank, waiting to see if he realized he was taking a very, very provincial view of things – and waiting to see his explanation of why his mirror-slap shock was being called shutter shock. But now you've got to come along a spoil the fun. Oh well!

Hank: if you go to the mFT forum and enter shutter shock in the search field, you will get over 16,000 hits. As Craig correctly points out, mirror-slap shock and shutter shock are two different problems (cousins, to be sure), and the latter does indeed affect some mirrorless cameras.

Shutter shock, the neurosis du jour for the DPR set.

+1

We've moved beyond DR obsession to shutter-shock obsession.

Anyone besides me see a trend here?

Don't tell Rishi. He'll go bonkers on the forum again.

But when we "measure" shutter shock, etc., how do we account for the difference in sensor size, is there some sort of equivalence involved....

Craig Gillette said:

But when we "measure" shutter shock, etc., how do we account for the difference in sensor size, is there some sort of equivalence involved....

Click to expand...

looks like we need some help from the EQ expert GB, looking forward to another equivalence thread at least this one will require hands on experience with different cameras.

cheers don

I found the whole mirror slap and shutter shock problems very difficult to understand. There were so many different and contradictory opinions, so many people who had read stuff, misunderstood it, and were now publishing their confusion as expert advice, so much variation between different combinations of cameras and lenses, and so on. How could I possibly work out whether this was a problem for my particular camera and my particular lenses?

Then I had an amazing idea. The camera and lenses I was worried about actually belonged to me! So why not just carry out some tests to find out by experiment if these problems affected me?

I found out, generally speaking, that mirror slap wasn't a problem. That was what the manufacturer had said. They said that redesign of the mirror mechansim had eliminated it. But lots of people had said that wasn't true. As far as my gear was concerned, it was. And since I later upgraded to a camera without a moving mirror it became irrelevant anyway.

But shutter shock was a problem. It started to show itself around 135mm, and got worse at longer focal lengths. It started to happen at shutter speeds below around 1/250th sec. It first which first showed itself as a slight vertical ghosting of a few pixels in the vertical direction. As shutter speeds lowered it became a vertical smear, which gradually broadened out and and then gradually faded. It happened with three successive camera upgrades. When I upgraded to a camera which had switchable options of electronic first curtain shutter or mechanical it could simply be switched on and off, clearly identifying the mechanical first curtain shutter as the source of the problem. That made it possible for the first time to get really sharp images of distant stationary subjects with long lenses using a tripod and longer exposures. It greatly extended the usefulness of my long lenses, and stopped me lusting after the impossibly expensive wide aperture long lenses which would have helped me keep shutter speeds above the problem range.

It took me a few hours to do the tests and examine the results, far less time than I'd spent googling up all sorts of nonsense and occasionally finding useful fragments of fact. I recommend that people who actually own a camera stop reading and try some experiments. If you can't see the problem with your own gear then you don't have the problem. Experiment trumps speculation!

Chris Malcolm said:

It took me a few hours to do the tests and examine the results, far less time than I'd spent googling up all sorts of nonsense and occasionally finding useful fragments of fact. I recommend that people who actually own a camera stop reading and try some experiments. If you can't see the problem with your own gear then you don't have the problem. Experiment trumps speculation!

Click to expand...

Dead true, test things for yourself to see what happens and what matters.

In the Micro Four Thirds forum shutter shock is a major issue and in the case of Olympus the addition of so-called "zero second anti-shock" feature which adds about 1/40 second delay after the first shutter blades run before initiating electronic first curtain shutter operation.

Latest Olympus bodies optionally don't run the first shutter blades at all and rely entirely on electronic first curtain shutter operation if that option is enabled in the menus.

Anyway, in the Olympus menus when you enable the zero second anti-shock you see this screen.....



That says it all, at last an admission within a camera that tells us that shutter shock is real.

Regards..... Guy

gollywop said:

Hank3152 said:

Jonathan Brady said:

I don't own any of the gear in question but it seems like the common denominators are shutter speeds of 1/80-1/30 and with longer focal lengths.

Click to expand...

It's actually closer to speeds between 1/30 and 1/2 second when using a moderate zoom or standard lens, and it's camera shake caused by the mirror slap.

Click to expand...

That's very interesting. So, the way to avoid this problem, then, is to use a mirrorless camera?

But you do make me curious as to why it's not called mirror-slap shock.

Click to expand...

Because both the mirror and a mechanical shutter can cause vibration. It was a problem for the first generation of the (mirrorless) Sony A7r, for instance.

Like human-caused camera shake, it shows most with long lenses or high magnification macro.

Each model of tripod head has a natural resonant frequency, and if this happens to be triggered by the camera's vibration the problem will be worse.

The cure is to use a mirrorless camera, or one with the mirror locked up, and a shutter with an electronic first curtain. Leaf shutters, as used in the Sigma DP cameras, are also free from vibration problems.

D Cox said:

gollywop said:

Hank3152 said:

Jonathan Brady said:

I don't own any of the gear in question but it seems like the common denominators are shutter speeds of 1/80-1/30 and with longer focal lengths.

Click to expand...

It's actually closer to speeds between 1/30 and 1/2 second when using a moderate zoom or standard lens, and it's camera shake caused by the mirror slap.

Click to expand...

That's very interesting. So, the way to avoid this problem, then, is to use a mirrorless camera?

But you do make me curious as to why it's not called mirror-slap shock.

Click to expand...

Because both the mirror and a mechanical shutter can cause vibration. It was a problem for the first generation of the (mirrorless) Sony A7r, for instance.

Click to expand...

Oh thanks D Cox. I count on you to help keep me straight.

As another matter of curiosity, did you read here before posting? or do you just post without reading?

it is something that:

• only affects certain shots under certain conditions
• is thus a bit of a tempest in a teacup. It's a real tempest, mind you, but it is in a teacup.
• is inconsistent---sometimes it's there, sometime it's not, sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, same settings. Go figure :-/
• one of those conditions being focal length used--longer= more problematic. Wide angle shooters can be pretty carefree about their shooting in terms of this problem
• is often only visible at 1:1, so only certain kinds of shots are "ruined" by it
• is affected by the mass of the camera---early "solutions" for the A7R involved metal plates attached to the bottoms. I can attest that the battery grip helped a whole lot. It is almost permanently attached to mine
• probably has always existed, but remained unseen. Why? Because film era cameras tended to be heftier mass-wise, and because the sort of shutters that produce this problem were only used in cameras using smaller format films, like 35mm, but also some 120/220, and that film, especially 35mm, was too coarse/low-rez to show the effects generally. Nobody complained about this much back in the old days, only mirror slap. And in the early, lo-rez digital era, again the rez was such that some of the finer effects of mirror slap could not be seen. Now with high-rez the flaw is far more noticeable when it happens.

So, that's how I see it. It's a mole, not a metastasizing melanoma.

http://improvephotography.com/33218/efcs-and-your-camera-what-photographers-should-know/

Jonathan Brady said:

(hence I never bothered to learn about it as I use the 20mp Canon 6D)

That brings me to my question... with a Canon 6D, the lenses I own which have "longer" focal lengths would be the Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L IS USM, Canon EF 135mm f/2L USM, and Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6L IS USM.

But it WOULD be nice to know in case I have an isolated circumstance pop up where I'm actually going to mount it on a tripod and shoot slower shutter speeds.

Thanks for any insight you folks can offer!

Click to expand...

EFCS and Your Camera: What photographers should know:

Camera Models with EFCS (As of May, 2015). Your 6D is on the list.

http://improvephotography.com/33218/efcs-and-your-camera-what-photographers-should-know/

--
Norm

I am using the 5D2 and I have shot with the 70-200/4 IS, 70-200 II, with or without an 1.4 extender; and I also own the 100L and the 135L. Never saw anything that would resemble shutters shock in my hand held shots. On a tripod, just use LV.