DSLR stands now for Dead-SLR

Roland Karlsson said:

BobORama said:

To be honest the cameras I no longer use are my pocket-able P&S cameras ( my beloved F30 ) - that has been entirely replaced by my phone.

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I have made a rather surprising discovery. I had my Sony RX100 iii with me in a rather dark restaurant. I set it at auto ISO and just took lots of photos. They were sharp and nice without any flash. Others had DSLR or phones. They did not succeed so well. Hmmmmmm ....

The Sony camera has a 1 inch BSI sensor. In the dark restaurant, it never used longer exposure time than 1/30 s. It used ISO 2000-4000.

Magic?

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Not entirely sure what the point is, I'm assuming it is that "the camera you have is the best" camera?

But its not magic. Its f/1.8 optics + a good sensor + image stabilization + $800 msrp. So you get what you pay for - and you did.

But if that were your ONLY camera you owned, it would still be rather limiting, IMO.

-- Bob
http://bob-o-rama.smugmug.com -- Photos
http://www.vimeo.com/boborama/videos -- Videos
http://blog.trafficshaper.com -- Blog

BobORama said:

Not entirely sure what the point is, I'm assuming it is that "the camera you have is the best" camera?

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I was only surprised. I have never used in such low light before, always taking my K-3/K-5 instead.

BobORama said:

But its not magic. Its f/1.8 optics + a good sensor + image stabilization + $800 msrp. So you get what you pay for - and you did.

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Sure.

BobORama said:

But if that were your ONLY camera you owned, it would still be rather limiting, IMO.

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I have lots of cameras.

How disappointing to read all the negative comments on the OP's post.

It is obvious he thought a lot about the state of the DSLR market before posting, and although one might not agree with his standpoints, one should at least respect it, and offer your own views. But many of the posts were just plain aggressive and poor mannered. Is this how how you react to people around you daily?

Notable exceptions were people like tcom and BoB O'Rama, who offered (like always) interesting views of their own on the subject.

mxx said:

How disappointing to read all the negative comments on the OP's post.

It is obvious he thought a lot about the state of the DSLR market before posting, and although one might not agree with his standpoints, one should at least respect it, and offer your own views. But many of the posts were just plain aggressive and poor mannered. Is this how how you react to people around you daily?

Notable exceptions were people like tcom and BoB O'Rama, who offered (like always) interesting views of their own on the subject.

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Zvonomir has written a bunch posts with similar tema.

Moreover, Zvonomir is not all that careful when commenting others posts.

So, all in all I think the answers are rather well balanced.

Of course, nothing wrong with taking what he has written, word by word, and commenting disagreement or not.

And nothing wrong with you disagreeing with the posts.

But, I think you go off in a tangent. Why ask if this is how we react to people around us daily? Of course we do not! If you want to be seen as better as those you criticizes you ought to be more careful with your own wordings, IMHO.

Just because someone has switched to mirrorless totally, does not mean DSLR is dead. DSLRs far outsell mirrorless in worldwide units, and although numbers sold have decreased a bit, does not mean DSLRs are on their way out.

Professionals and enthusiasts still buy plenty of them yearly.

Smaller cameras have design constraints by their size, while larger cameras can have more performance due to less size contraints for better AF tracking system with phase detect for one good example, as sports shooters will still reach for a DSLR to do their work for example which works far more accurately and consistently than most mirrorless.

High performance cameras still sell, despite smaller size cameras.

I still prefer an OVF to an EVF, as do many serious photographers. (Perhaps not all I would say as Sony and Fuji get more users.) Canon and Nikon still outsell them.

DSLRs could be around for a long time at least to the use of professionals and serious enthusiasts that prefer OVF viewing experience when taking photos over EVF. Which means mirrors with OVF.

mxx said:

Notable exceptions were people like tcom and BoB O'Rama, who offered (like always) interesting views of their own on the subject.

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I disagree! That Bob-O-Rama guy is a weasel!

One of the many ways in which Human Beings manage to be Humans Doing is to identify with our possessions. We like to feel good about our purchasing decisions. Thorsten Veblen nailed it when he asserted that consumerism is our belief in the idea that we can buy our way into a higher social class. This is the reason marketing works, that grade school desire to be one of the cool kids. From the type of cancer stix we smoke, to the rotgut we drink, to the chicken nuggets we consume, to the personal conveyances we drive, and to the cameras we use - we like to think we made the right choice. When other people make different choices, we are forced to confront those decisions, and second guess them.

But I'm not my possessions. There will always be something more awesome than what I can afford to have, and there will always be ( many ) people way more talented at using them than I am.

The thing I sense is that, often, these sorts of threads are not started out of an interest to education, enlighten, or discuss - but rather elicit that squirming reaction.

-- Bob
http://bob-o-rama.smugmug.com -- Photos
http://www.vimeo.com/boborama/videos -- Videos
http://blog.trafficshaper.com -- Blog

Are you talking about the DoF or light gathering capability of the lens?

Hey "weasel"...

Great reply!

Daryl
--
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway

Great photography is largely a matter of perspective, both visually and mentally - Daryl Kottwitz (but probably said before )

My gallery: http://darylkottwitzphoto.smugmug.com
My shots on PPG: http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/darylkottwitz

For those who still don't understand, and harp around in wrong directions misconstruing my remarks, I have written that DSLR stands for Dead *SLR*, because DSLRs have become a totally different cameras from SLRs they are supposed to represent.

It is impossible, for some strange reason, to have a small and light DSLR anymore.

One company that could deliver it, was Pentax. But Ricoh refused to listen.

Tell me, dear Pentax forum users, for how long many of you have longed for a beautiful, smaller and lighter body than the K7/K5/K3, which could be used well with small DA limiteds, for example, and be carried around with less strain?

We had the lenses! We only needed a suitable camera.

We chartered it, we drew it, we described it. But alas — what users asked was ignored, and we have gotten .. the K-S1. The K-S1?! Who in the right mind drew that?! Users did not!

So even when all users wants and requests are charted, a manufacturer delivered smaller DSLR in a totally twisted, crazy direction, and then admitted they screwed it up. To compensate for the failure, K-S2, again bigger and heavier, was delivered immediately.

And now, you call me a prophet of doom? For stating the obvious?!

Who is killing SLR but manufacturers themselves, who for some odd reason cannot add two and two together, and totally ignore customers. While mirrorless companies look at what DSLR makers do wrong, and carve their own niche where they prosper.

That is the tragedy, and the comedy.

For those who can add two and two together.

mxx said:

How disappointing to read all the negative comments on the OP's post.

It is obvious he thought a lot about the state of the DSLR market before posting, and although one might not agree with his standpoints, one should at least respect it, and offer your own views. But many of the posts were just plain aggressive and poor mannered. Is this how how you react to people around you daily?

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The tone of the post, starting with the title itself, practically invited negative comments. I don't usually partake in that sort of thing, but in this case I made an exception.

In the interest of adding something positive, let me say that DSLR vs. Mirrorless will depend on your point of view. Each has advantages over the other. Old tech isn't inferior just because it's old!

I think the people who have been using phones for a camera will be more likely to gravitate to mirrorless if they upgrade, simply because that's what they're used to. Forget the EVF, they'll just keep looking at the screen on the back. The K-01 was ahead of its time. If they do choose a DSLR, it will be because of the perception that DSLRs are serious cameras, or because they've realized that their needs aren't fulfilled by current mirrorless offerings.

On the other hand, the people buying the majority of ILC are already starting with a SLR background, and will buy what they're comfortable with. It may take a while for this to change, if ever - remember what I said about advantages. A mirrorless would have to be demonstrably better in key regards to even have a chance.

James O'Neill said:

The mad theories, the drivel postings. The life untouched by facts.

I won't reply to any of the points in the post ... its would be like trying to teach a pig to sing. A waste of my time and annoying to the pig

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.. is while others exercised their false righteousness and content towards the situation, and were giving up constantly, year after year, he had guts to openly tell about things gone wrong and what could be good for the brand not to slip into obscurity (Pentax lost more than half users in the last 5 years alone, proving his predictions correct). Rice dared. Thus he became a magnet to the hypocrisy of the crowd. He went away, becoming a lone voice in the blogosphere.

That he also missed more than a few shots, he did. But he was stoned and then lynch mobbed by those who were claiming Pentax is doing just fine, which was not true, in the end. Rice was right, they were wrong. They missed every single hit in their replies when they appeased their conformity.

So, you see, while you say you won't reply, you do reply, and you miss it same as before.

I think the camera you are looking for is the K-01 - small, mirrorless, created with an eye to design. It was a flop because it couldn't sell for the kind of prices that would make it profitable.

Mark Ransom said:

I think the camera you are looking for is the K-01 - small, mirrorless, created with an eye to design. It was a flop because it couldn't sell for the kind of prices that would make it profitable.

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Mark,

Was it not a good reason to make things better with the K-S1 then? Why repeat same mistakes twice?

K-S1 could have been that what Fujifilm XT1 is for the mirrorless crowd, but it isn't. Pentax even had all the lenses ready! So while Fujifilm XT1 comes and gets accolades, builds a new system for Fujifilm, the K-S1 is ridiculed. Both K-01 and K-S1 were not what users wanted. Even a half-blind designer and a marketing director could understand that.

Fujifim needs not marketing degree director at all: they need someone with the ability to add two and two together, who watches mistakes done by DSLR makers. In this instance, Fujifilm carved niche in the market Pentax never addressed. Pentax lost customers, Fujifilm gained.

Who is crazy, who is smart there and why?

PS. Nikon to an extent addressed the issue of bleeding customers and addressing SLR promise with the Df1.

--
Madamina, il catalogo è questo; Delle belle che amò il padron mio; un catalogo egli è che ho fatt'io; Osservate, leggete con me.

Zvonimir Tosic said:

K-S1 could have been that what Fujifilm XT1 is for the mirrorless crowd, but it isn't. Pentax even had all the lenses ready! So while Fujifilm XT1 comes and gets accolades, builds a new system for Fujifilm, the K-S1 is ridiculed. Both K-01 and K-S1 were not what users wanted. Even a half-blind designer and a marketing director could understand that.

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People here, including you, were cheering and asking for K-mount mirrorless. That's why they released K01. Just releasing a smaller DSLR (which Canon actually did with Rebel SL1) would not have created same excitement as Fuji. Pentax DSLRs are already very small. Fuji hype started with X100 (which was a fixed lens camera with APSC size sensor and retro rangefinder like design), and then they followed that hype by going full force into EVF/mirrorless system. That's a very different history then just making small DSLRs

Remember my two sentence rule?

Zvonimir Tosic said:

For those who still don't understand, and harp around in wrong directions misconstruing my remarks, I have written that DSLR stands for Dead *SLR*, because DSLRs have become a totally different cameras from SLRs they are supposed to represent.

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Ok, first sentence I read and got, you originally wrote 'Dead' but you meant 'have become totally different from SLR'. OK, fair enough.

Zvonimir Tosic said:

It is impossible, for some strange reason, to have a small and light DSLR anymore.

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I read it but I don't comprehend. Of course light is a relative term. New Sonys are getting heavier to stabilize the lens better. Not sure if the trend actually a trend.

Zvonimir Tosic said:

*snip*
That is the tragedy, and the comedy.

For those who can add two and two together.

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After second sentence I didn't read anything. Thank you for keeping the core of your post in two sentences though.

ET2 said:

Zvonimir Tosic said:

K-S1 could have been that what Fujifilm XT1 is for the mirrorless crowd, but it isn't. Pentax even had all the lenses ready! So while Fujifilm XT1 comes and gets accolades, builds a new system for Fujifilm, the K-S1 is ridiculed. Both K-01 and K-S1 were not what users wanted. Even a half-blind designer and a marketing director could understand that.

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People here, including you, were cheering and asking for K-mount mirrorless. That's why they released K01. Just releasing a smaller DSLR (which Canon actually did with Rebel SL1) would not have created same excitement as Fuji. Pentax DSLRs are already very small. Fuji hype started with X100 (which was a fixed lens camera with APSC size sensor and retro rangefinder like design), and then they followed that hype by going full force into EVF/mirrorless system. That's a very different history then just making small DSLRs

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.. I don't recall I ever wished for a mirrorless K-mount camera. ... But since you track my posts quite diligently, perhaps you have stored some my reply somewhere, understood in such a way ...

However, that is beside point; the point we discuss is A. form factor, B. price, C. features.
K-01 failed in all three. K-S1 Failed in two. So perhaps we need to wait another attempt?

Fujifilm indeed tested the market, and then took part of it not addressed, and totally ignored by the dSLR manufacturers. If dSLR manufacturers were offering more diversified look and feel of cameras — and history tells they can do that — we would have healthier and more versatile DSLR market.

But that kind of thinking is gone now from dSLR crowd. Perhaps Pentax lost it too sometime in Hoya's takeover, when some people, who designed the DA limited lenses strategy, lost the battle. Once a Pentax product manager said Pentax thought of a K1000-like camera indeed, but that idea was scrapped.

Most likely scrapped not by Pentax, but by some of their corporate owners. And that is the idea Fujifilm resurrected and made its own little world.

ET2 said:

Zvonimir Tosic said:

K-S1 could have been that what Fujifilm XT1 is for the mirrorless crowd, but it isn't. Pentax even had all the lenses ready! So while Fujifilm XT1 comes and gets accolades, builds a new system for Fujifilm, the K-S1 is ridiculed. Both K-01 and K-S1 were not what users wanted. Even a half-blind designer and a marketing director could understand that.

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People here, including you, were cheering and asking for K-mount mirrorless. That's why they released K01. Just releasing a smaller DSLR (which Canon actually did with Rebel SL1) would not have created same excitement as Fuji. Pentax DSLRs are already very small. Fuji hype started with X100 (which was a fixed lens camera with APSC size sensor and retro rangefinder like design),..

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What I was writing about was most likely the strategy at some time, to have alternative design, when the DA Limited lenses were developed. Here in this video we hear some confession at 2:03 min,


But most likely the idea was killed by some new owner of the company (Hoya most likely). When Ricoh came, they decided they know better than users, so to our "excitement" they delivered us K-01 and K-S1.

Zvonimir Tosic said:

Pentax lost more than half users in the last 5 years alone

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That sounds like total BS. Do you have any evidence? I must read a dozen "Just bought a Pentax" posts for every "I'm leaving Pentax" post in Pentax forums.

--
Dan

Zvonimir Tosic said:

.. I don't recall I ever wished for a mirrorless K-mount camera. ... But since you track my posts quite diligently, perhaps you have stored some my reply somewhere, understood in such a way ...

However, that is beside point; the point we discuss is A. form factor, B. price, C. features.
K-01 failed in all three. K-S1 Failed in two. So perhaps we need to wait another attempt?

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Are you telling me you no longer remember all your fanboyish posts where you told us K01 made money and is one of the most successful camera compared to all the other mirrorless cameras (Fuji, Sony) that, according to you, are losing money? Is your memory that bad?