A7 or A7R

Aasmund G · Sep 14, 2015

Mathieu18 said:
Okay, so A7 or A7II. Do either have significantly better IQ than the A6000?

I would not really think of it like that, it's a question of lens and camera combinations. You seem to have a a lot of decent APS-C glass, so I would be very reluctant.

Here is a simple explanation (A7 vs A6000)

A7 advantages:

cheap legacy lenses if you want (24 mp is plenty for most legacy lenses)

High-end lenses when you need it/for your favorite focal lengths.

FF zooms often provide similar IQ to APS-C primes (especially 2.8's - which would have to be adapted)

A6000 advantages

smaller lenses

more reasonable new lenses

- you have it already.

Member said:
I know I'll get about a stop of high ISO for astro photography. But otherwise, I shot real estate with flash / ISO400 or less, landscapes with tripod for low light and a running toddler (which A6000 can't even keep up with if she's really going.)

To me, if I'm going to give up good AF than I want the large gains in IQ.

I know I asked for advice, I'm not being argumentative cause I'm a troll, I'm just testing my conclusion, and that is to sacrifice AF and get ultimate IQ.

Mathieu18 · Sep 14, 2015

Aasmund G said:
Mathieu18 said:

Okay, so A7 or A7II. Do either have significantly better IQ than the A6000?

Click to expand...

I would not really think of it like that, it's a question of lens and camera combinations. You seem to have a a lot of decent APS-C glass, so I would be very reluctant.

I've sold some of it. Buy & sell used a decent amount and buy carefully, so changing gear doesn't bother me, in other words I won't lose a lot vs. what I paid if I liquidate my APS-C glass.

Aasmund G said:
Here is a simple explanation (A7 vs A6000)

A7 advantages:

cheap legacy lenses if you want (24 mp is plenty for most legacy lenses)

Already have Minoltas (35 2.8, 58 1.4, 135 2.8, 200 3.5 & Sigma 90 Macro) None of the prized lenses but good performers (except for the 200, it's eh.)

Aasmund G said:
High-end lenses when you need it/for your favorite focal lengths.

Would probably pick up a 35 2.8, found I loved the 24 1.8 on the A6000. Maybe the 28 f/2 instead though.

Aasmund G said:
FF zooms often provide similar IQ to APS-C primes (especially 2.8's - which would have to be adapted)

Aasmund G said:
A6000 advantages

smaller lenses

If I keep the A6000 I'll probably keep the DT 16-50 2.8 since it's sharper than the 24 1.8. So no small lenses...

Aasmund G said:
more reasonable new lenses

Eh, Sigmas maybe, otherwise APS-C is just as overpriced as FE relatively.

Aasmund G said:
- you have it already.

Yup, that's the rub...

Aasmund G · Sep 14, 2015

Mathieu18 said:
Already have Minoltas (35 2.8, 58 1.4, 135 2.8, 200 3.5 & Sigma 90 Macro) None of the prized lenses but good performers (except for the 200, it's eh.)

These lenses will be a lot better on A7, and in particular A7II in my opinion. Do you really want to throw away half your image? In fact, I would say it is reason enough to get the A7II

Member said:
Member said:

High-end lenses when you need it/for your favorite focal lengths.

Click to expand...

Would probably pick up a 35 2.8, found I loved the 24 1.8 on the A6000. Maybe the 28 f/2 instead though.

I find you use slightly wider on FF due to more cropping headroom. I have the A7 + 35, but will either switch to the 16-35 or A7II + 28.

Member said:
Member said:

FF zooms often provide similar IQ to APS-C primes (especially 2.8's - which would have to be adapted)

A6000 advantages

smaller lenses

Click to expand...

If I keep the A6000 I'll probably keep the DT 16-50 2.8 since it's sharper than the 24 1.8. So no small lenses...

I think you have a lot to gain by switching to A7II. You will gain more than a stop with FF + IBIS, and your legacy lenses will be more forgiving with the larger FF pixels (corners might not though

)

CraigArnold · Sep 14, 2015

AdamT said:
Adam-T said:

It defintely will not keep up with any kind of living being that is not sleeping or a plant

Click to expand...

Utter rubbish .. I managed to EASILY get the A7R to track a Tree Sloth in Chester Zoo in continuous even !! and some of the shots were perfectly focussed - OK it struggled with a tortoise heading for a lettuce leaf but take the leaf away and no Probs , it tracked that too ! (in good light anyway) .. All the Sonys are poor at AFing in low light even the hyped up A6000.

No this cam isn`t for tracking focus on an excitable puppy by a long chalk but with 36Mp to play with, shoot wide, pre-focus and crop ...

Seriously, if a desperate need for fast (or even depedably accurate) AF is important then the A7R is the last Mirrorless to choose, the A7 and A7-II are a lot better (and not much between those two by many accounts) so if you don`t want IBIS save pots or cash and get the Orig A7

Mathieu18 · Sep 15, 2015

So who has an A7 or A7R or A7II for sale?

I'm just as undecided as I was when this all started!

tammons · Sep 15, 2015

Go on the Fred Miranda site and you will find a lot of equipment for sale.

Bottom line is if you need IBIS then get the A7II or the A7RII.

If you dont need IBIS and it sounds like you dont and you want 24mp get the A7. Nothing wrong with it.

If you want 36mp then get the A7R but realize its a slower camera, slower AF with Caveats but nothing really that bad and I can live with all of it.

That said keep in mind if everything is not perfect with the A7R you can drop in equiv rez down to 24mp pretty quick. Like stop down too much, bad lens, slightly OOF etc and that can happen with peaking if you dont magnify.

When the A7R is very slightly OOF there is still a ton of detail there. Also you have a 15.4mp crop mode when the A7 is less.

The A7R is my preferred camera but I am a resolution freak. Even though it can drop pretty quick to a lower rez if things aren't perfect when its sharpest and really on the images are pretty amazing.

CraigArnold · Sep 15, 2015

Mathieu18 said:
So who has an A7 or A7R or A7II for sale?

I'm just as undecided as I was when this all started!

Nah, I'm hanging on to my A7R for another year or two.

I've made peace with the fact that it's not the camera I thought I was buying, and curse all those glowing internet reviews. Gold award my ar**.

I've just got myself a Loxia 35 and it's probably going to stay on permanently until I can afford an A7RII one day.

With the Loxia attached it's a bit like a modern high-rez rangefinder. Eventually I may learn to like the camera, for now it's just a nice change that I don't actually hate it anymore.

Adam-T · Sep 15, 2015

CraigArnold said:
I've made peace with the fact that it's not the camera I thought I was buying, and curse all those glowing internet reviews. Gold award my ar**.

Hmmm, most of us knew it was a slow clattery heap with dodgy AF but a brilliant sensor from the start, I don`t remember any reviews covering this up, in fact all the negativity about shutter shock drove me away from getting one for ages (On actually getting one, I found this far less of an issue than it is with a large number of Micro 4/3 cams) . Nope, the R`s pitfalls were never a mystery right from the get go..

R usability Depends on whether the workarounds are acceptable or its compromises fit in with your usage . for me and now, it`s a fill in for when super-hi-rez images are needed, thankfully in my job, that`s rarely where fast operation or silence is needed - cards are big enough to bracket focus anyway .

Mathieu18 · Sep 15, 2015

So what is missing that you expected? Just the AF performance or something more?

Out of curiosity, anyone know how the A7R performs with native lenses vs the AF performance of adapted lenses on all the other Alphas (except A7RII). I ask because I have a 16-50 2.8 on my A6000, so have a frame of reference for how truly slow that is.

CraigArnold said:
I've made peace with the fact that it's not the camera I thought I was buying, and curse all those glowing internet reviews. Gold award my ar**.

jalywol · Sep 15, 2015

My A7r arrived (used, but mint, with 1100 shutter actuations).

First impressions:

Nicer color on this particular A7R vs my A7. Not sure if this is true across the board, or just on the ones I have (subtle difference, more an impression than anything else).

AF just as dodgy as everyone said it would be. Better after firmware upgrade to version 2.00, but still dodgy.

Oddly enough, even though this is not supposed to be how it works, my adapted A-mount lenses with the LAEA4 work faster and focus lock more accurately on the A7 than the A7R. I can't possibly figure out why, since the PDAF mechanism is in the adapter, not the camera for theses lenses, so they really should behave the same.

Wonderful sensor.

Clackity clack shutter. It's even louder than the A7 with the EFCS off, which surprised me.

Shutter shock turns out to be an issue for me with this body. Since I use longer lenses, both native and adapted, which are where it usually is most likely to occur, that's not really a surprise. However, it is significant enough in my particular usage that I think it might outweigh the benefits of the better sensor. I was hoping it would not be, but for me, I think it is.

So, I think for my purposes, my A7 is just overall a better tool for my use.

I wish they made a 36MP version with the same small body as my A7, but with EFCS and PDAF. It's too bad the A7RII has even more stuff in it, and is larger, making it definitely not the right one for me either.

Oh well...I guess someone up there doesn't want me to spend money I don't have at the moment.....so A7 it is!

-J

Random Photographer · Sep 15, 2015

Haha, yeah. Stick with the A7 (if you can). Who knows, maybe Sony might release a pixel shift app, that'll let you take 50MP photos of still objects like some smartphone apps do ;X, for when you're craving dem extra pixels

jalywol · Sep 15, 2015

Random Photographer said:
Haha, yeah. Stick with the A7 (if you can). Who knows, maybe Sony might release a pixel shift app, that'll let you take 50MP photos of still objects like some smartphone apps do ;X, for when you're craving dem extra pixels

No IBIS....no pixel shift

It's not a big deal, I like my A7 a lot, was just interested in the extra resolution mostly for cropping more than anything else.

-J

osv · Sep 15, 2015

jalywol said:
Shutter shock turns out to be an issue for me with this body.

raising the shutter speed a bit will alleviate that.

tammons · Sep 15, 2015

Depends on the lens.

Depends on the holding technique.

I have been using manual 50mm lens a lot lately at 1/60th and no issues.

One you get to around 1/125 to 1/160th IMO is one problem area at times but not always.

Once you get up to about 85mm or so then SS can be more prevalent. 135mm and up even more so with my camera.

That said I have been using a Canon FD 300mm F4 L hand held and have very little issues. You follow the old pre IBIS and IS lens rules.

I personally try to keep the shutter speed on longer lenses at 1.5x or 2x the focal length.

Unfortunately Sony doesnt think they need a custom minimum shutter speed on their cameras via the menu but I sure wish they would add that feature in FW.

jalywol · Sep 15, 2015

osv said:
jalywol said:

Shutter shock turns out to be an issue for me with this body.

Click to expand...

raising the shutter speed a bit will alleviate that.

Duh?

Of course, that's the ideal solution. However, it's not always the most practical for any given lighting situation.

I think with longer adapted lenses, as others have mentioned, this is a more difficult camera to work with, and, for the way I prefer to use the camera, it's not ideal for me. I was hoping it wouldn't be that big a deal, but for the way I work with it, it's a little limiting. YMMV, as always, of course.

-J

osv · Sep 15, 2015

tammons said:
I personally try to keep the shutter speed on longer lenses at 1.5x or 2x the focal length.

ansel adams said that it should be 5x the focal length... but what does he know, lol

tammons said:
Unfortunately Sony doesnt think they need a custom minimum shutter speed on their cameras via the menu but I sure wish they would add that feature in FW.

that would definitely help, if you aren't shooting in manual mode.

tammons · Sep 15, 2015

osv said:
tammons said:

I personally try to keep the shutter speed on longer lenses at 1.5x or 2x the focal length.

Click to expand...

ansel adams said that it should be 5x the focal length... but what does he know, lol

osv said:
osv said:

Unfortunately Sony doesnt think they need a custom minimum shutter speed on their cameras via the menu but I sure wish they would add that feature in FW.

Click to expand...

that would definitely help, if you aren't shooting in manual mode.

CraigArnold · Sep 15, 2015

Mathieu18 said:
So what is missing that you expected? Just the AF performance or something more?

Out of curiosity, anyone know how the A7R performs with native lenses vs the AF performance of adapted lenses on all the other Alphas (except A7RII). I ask because I have a 16-50 2.8 on my A6000, so have a frame of reference for how truly slow that is.

Member said:

I've made peace with the fact that it's not the camera I thought I was buying, and curse all those glowing internet reviews. Gold award my ar**.

Click to expand...

Mostly the AF.

I was expecting that I would eventually be able to get to a slow-but-accurate point after a few weeks of adjustment and learning. Like every other camera I ever used, that at some point I would be able to get 70-80% acceptably in focus. But even today I simply cannot get more than 20% using AF, unless I stop down to f8 or so.

So I have been using DMF with manual adjustment with the FE35,55,24-70. And recently bought the Loxia 35 which really makes all the difference.

I happen to hate the ergonomics and menu design with a passion.

Mostly no-one is to blame. Sony have done a great job, it's just not a camera I like using. My own fault for not renting? Well perhaps, but renting in the UK is easier said than done. It's pretty expensive and not easy to find the stuff you want. Should have got it from Amazon and returned it? Perhaps, but I prefer to support local stores.

But really the sensor is fantastic. And with the Loxia on I do think I will really learn to get along with it. Loxia plus new printer seemed a better bet than taking the chance on the A7R2, which honestly doesn't seem like it's very likely to make my pictures any better, marginal technical improvements are not a silver bullet for a lack of vision.

billzilla2000 · Sep 15, 2015

Mathieu18 said:
The 36MP and better DR / Color Depth on the A7R are good reasons. I've never been a huge fan of IBIS/OSS, so I know it has usefulness but wouldn't pick a camera just for that. Faster AF vs A7R resolution is the decision.

The A7II has even faster AF, and the IBIS gives you an added 2 or more stops to work with in handheld situations re: static subjects. Not sure what makes you 'not a fan' of stabilization but I'd suggest trying it before dismissing it out of hand.

The A7 has the same (normalized) DR as the A7R per DxO testing. The A7II gives up 1/2 EV of shadow noise at base ISO but is basically the same after that.

Tonal and Color range between these three cameras is near identical.

Adam-T · Sep 16, 2015

jalywol said:
Oddly enough, even though this is not supposed to be how it works, my adapted A-mount lenses with the LAEA4 work faster and focus lock more accurately on the A7 than the A7R. I can't possibly figure out why

Neither can I - I have a LEAH4 but have no lenses now as my optically superb Beercan has died, I`ll check then when I do

jalywol said:
Shutter shock turns out to be an issue for me with this body. Since I use longer lenses, both native and adapted, which are where it usually is most likely to occur, that's not really a surprise.

I`ve not used longer than 70mm (the Beercan's Iris failed Prior to getting the R) and seen little or none .. with M43 I had the most SS issues with the wide end of lenses - for instance, the Pan 14-140-II Shocked far worse at 14mm than 140mm for some reason (GX7 Mech shutter / EM5) , in fact it ruined 90% of shots at 14mm in the danger zone .. if indeed the R shocks worse past 100mm then I`m safe .

jalywol said:
I wish they made a 36MP version with the same small body as my A7, but with EFCS and PDAF.

that`s exactly what I said - if they put EFCS and PDAF into the A7R I`d have been more than happy (especially given the 7II IBIS failures posted on the forum and the crappy dials the Mk2s have) - prob is that the 36Mp sensor was designed for a Nikon DSLR , Nikon + LV/Video = Afterthought and the sensor simply wasn`t made for LV operation ..

--
** Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist **

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