"Sony will concentrate on full-frame cameras in the future"

Plus they can make FF cameras for very cheap. Those bright viewfinders, oil free mirrors and myriad of AF modules cost money.
Please show us the affordable Sony FF. How much is the cheaper Sony FF ?
Please reference the starting price of the NEX-7 and A6000, or NEX-5 and A5100, for an example.

Then imagine the A7, priced similar to the NEX-7 originally, and its lesser quality build, plastic body, cheaper EVF (or no EVF) but larger production volume FF younger brother.
imagine, exactly...
Your premise is wrong. I said they could make FF cameras much cheaper, not that they already are. But they do have the cheapest FF cameras in the market, and it has a bunch of high dollar stuff like that high res EVF and magnesium body.
 
Plus they can make FF cameras for very cheap. Those bright viewfinders, oil free mirrors and myriad of AF modules cost money.
Please show us the affordable Sony FF. How much is the cheaper Sony FF ?
Please reference the starting price of the NEX-7 and A6000, or NEX-5 and A5100, for an example.

Then imagine the A7, priced similar to the NEX-7 originally, and its lesser quality build, plastic body, cheaper EVF (or no EVF) but larger production volume FF younger brother.
imagine, exactly...
The a7 is retailing around 1K at the moment. That's already pretty cheap. In time these cameras will only get cheaper, as they get cycled out by newer models especially.
 
Plus they can make FF cameras for very cheap. Those bright viewfinders, oil free mirrors and myriad of AF modules cost money.
Please show us the affordable Sony FF. How much is the cheaper Sony FF ?
Please reference the starting price of the NEX-7 and A6000, or NEX-5 and A5100, for an example.

Then imagine the A7, priced similar to the NEX-7 originally, and its lesser quality build, plastic body, cheaper EVF (or no EVF) but larger production volume FF younger brother.
imagine, exactly...
The a7 is retailing around 1K at the moment. That's already pretty cheap. In time these cameras will only get cheaper, as they get cycled out by newer models especially.
US$1200.00 is the lowest I can find. This is far from the retail price of the a6000
 
Plus they can make FF cameras for very cheap. Those bright viewfinders, oil free mirrors and myriad of AF modules cost money.
Please show us the affordable Sony FF. How much is the cheaper Sony FF ?
Please reference the starting price of the NEX-7 and A6000, or NEX-5 and A5100, for an example.

Then imagine the A7, priced similar to the NEX-7 originally, and its lesser quality build, plastic body, cheaper EVF (or no EVF) but larger production volume FF younger brother.
imagine, exactly...
The a7 is retailing around 1K at the moment. That's already pretty cheap. In time these cameras will only get cheaper, as they get cycled out by newer models especially.
US$1200.00 is the lowest I can find. This is far from the retail price of the a6000
The body is $999 on Amazon. And it should cost more... it's a much better, significantly higher spec camera.
 
Plus they can make FF cameras for very cheap. Those bright viewfinders, oil free mirrors and myriad of AF modules cost money.
Please show us the affordable Sony FF. How much is the cheaper Sony FF ?
Please reference the starting price of the NEX-7 and A6000, or NEX-5 and A5100, for an example.

Then imagine the A7, priced similar to the NEX-7 originally, and its lesser quality build, plastic body, cheaper EVF (or no EVF) but larger production volume FF younger brother.
imagine, exactly...
The a7 is retailing around 1K at the moment. That's already pretty cheap. In time these cameras will only get cheaper, as they get cycled out by newer models especially.
US$1200.00 is the lowest I can find. This is far from the retail price of the a6000
The body is $999 on Amazon. And it should cost more... it's a much better, significantly higher spec camera.
I see US$1200.00 on Amazon. Show me the US $999.00 link if you can find it, thanks.
 
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Plus they can make FF cameras for very cheap. Those bright viewfinders, oil free mirrors and myriad of AF modules cost money.
Please show us the affordable Sony FF. How much is the cheaper Sony FF ?
Please reference the starting price of the NEX-7 and A6000, or NEX-5 and A5100, for an example.

Then imagine the A7, priced similar to the NEX-7 originally, and its lesser quality build, plastic body, cheaper EVF (or no EVF) but larger production volume FF younger brother.
imagine, exactly...
The a7 is retailing around 1K at the moment. That's already pretty cheap. In time these cameras will only get cheaper, as they get cycled out by newer models especially.
US$1200.00 is the lowest I can find. This is far from the retail price of the a6000
The body is $999 on Amazon. And it should cost more... it's a much better, significantly higher spec camera.
I see US$1200.00 on Amazon. Show me the US $999.00 link if you can find it, thanks.
It was $999 a few weeks ago. It will come down again.

 
The Sony exec clearly said they would focus there "in the near term". That means they wish to jump start that side of the equation by focusing on it in the "short term". There is nothing here that says that full frame will be their only focus going forward, just for the near future they will focus on that arena.
If you're refering to the original post title (the one I wrote) then no - exec didn't say it's only a "near term" strategy or goal, he said:

"In the short run, we will target existing full-frame camera users and then attract those who use entry and mid-class models to upgrade their cameras in the long run, raising the popularity of full-frame cameras."

Which means:

- in the short run - target existing FF camera users

- in the long run - attract those who use entry and mid-class models to upgrade to FF

The way I understand this is that FF is their long term priority.
 
The Sony exec clearly said they would focus there "in the near term". That means they wish to jump start that side of the equation by focusing on it in the "short term". There is nothing here that says that full frame will be their only focus going forward, just for the near future they will focus on that arena.
If you're refering to the original post title (the one I wrote) then no - exec didn't say it's only a "near term" strategy or goal, he said:

"In the short run, we will target existing full-frame camera users and then attract those who use entry and mid-class models to upgrade their cameras in the long run, raising the popularity of full-frame cameras."

Which means:

- in the short run - target existing FF camera users

- in the long run - attract those who use entry and mid-class models to upgrade to FF

The way I understand this is that FF is their long term priority.


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It may be. Perhaps, the thinking is to try to move people to the RX100m4/RX10m2.... or FF.
Yes, that is also a distinct possibility

Personally I think APS-C is the perfect mirrorless format as it seems to give the best IQ vs. size compromise in terms of lenses (even if the E-mount supports FF sensors - the resulting lenses are mainly huge and very pricey) whereas FF is clearly the right format for 'legacy' SLR mounts with their longer registration distances which in themselves allow smaller, less-telecentric lenses (only exception being 'action-oriented' cameras like the A77II and 7DII where the reach or APS-C gives benefits and allows cost-effective, high-performance shutters, frame-rates and AF systems 'for the masses')

Fuji agrees with this principle, but clearly Sony doesn't... and they are happy to increase the size of their principal mirrorless offerings till they are just a bit smaller than Canon FF, and direct their 'compact' seeking customers in the direction of the RX series, as you say

Also worth noting, however, that none of the RX series are cheap (unless you consider old models being sold on clearance). I really wonder if Sony are interested at all in the 'entry-level' segment these days...
 
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'and they are happy to increase the size of their principal mirrorless offerings till they are just a bit smaller than Canon FF'

So incorrect it's laughable. Laughing is what Sony is doing these days - all the way to the bank. Increased profit, increased production numbers too! Where is Thom Hogan when you need him?

'..Sony are interested at all in the 'entry-level' segment these days...'

My word they are, they recently significantly ramped up production in phone sensors, phones being the new entry level 'cameras'.

It's to Sony's credit that their acumen is so good they went it alone and achieved the perfect functionality/bulk/weight compromise in the a7 series. You can now use camera/lens combos that weigh under 1000 grams for 25-35-50-55-85 lenses, all of it state of the art in FE and Batis and Loxia.

Smokin!

And in fact they put distance between themselves and the tiny cam brigade at the same time, another market plus.
 
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'and they are happy to increase the size of their principal mirrorless offerings till they are just a bit smaller than Canon FF'

So incorrect it's laughable. Laughing is what Sony is doing these days - all the way to the bank. Increased profit, increased production numbers too! Where is Thom Hogan when you need him?

'..Sony are interested at all in the 'entry-level' segment these days...'

My word they are, they recently significantly ramped up production in phone sensors, phones being the new entry level 'cameras'.

It's to Sony's credit that their acumen is so good they went it alone and achieved the perfect functionality/bulk/weight compromise in the a7 series. You can now use camera/lens combos that weigh under 1000 grams for 25-35-50-55-85 lenses, all of it state of the art in FE and Batis and Loxia.

Smokin!

And in fact they put distance between themselves and the tiny cam brigade at the same time, another market plus.
Keep drinking that Kool-aid, chap
 
I don't like it, I think apsc and ff are different market and apsc market still has room to grow
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It's to Sony's credit that their acumen is so good they went it alone and achieved the perfect functionality/bulk/weight compromise in the a7 series.
Keep drinking that Kool-aid, chap
Way too much koolaid

The A7 series is another demographic from APS-C. It was saved from failure initially only because of it's mighty sensor and being first to market - not at all because of Sony's design decisions.

The design decisions that went into the II's are not about compromise honestly - they are about demographics alone. The size and features in the body are telling. They are not compact or consumer grade, they are not even attempting to disguise themselves as one.

The design decisions that went into the I's are not about compromise either - they are about a prototype product to test that demographic, to put a toe in the water. They are first to market, so they are forgiven.

Each of the A7 I's are technically worse than a lowly A5100 - worse at everything but their sensors, which can fit in an A5100 body, ironically. The A7II is technical inferior in a variety of ways as well. The A7RII appears to be better - we will see.

The market for FF cameras must be sufficiently massive to risk APS-C sensors and benefits. That, or they must have applied the A6000 and A5100 technologies and design philosophies to a higher pixel density replacement, and we don't know about it yet.
 
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I don't like it, I think apsc and ff are different market and apsc market still has room to grow
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It would if Sony were able to make one single half decent standard zoom for the thing . they`ve not pulled it off in the last 5 years at any price, I`ve come to the conclusion they`re incapable which is amazing as its easier to make glass for smaller sensors (and all they have to do is copy Canon or Fujis superb Mirrorless APS-C lenses) they did it full frame first time round with the FE28-70 and managed it for APS-C DSLR too (16-50 F2.8) .. Weird . they obvilously don`t care anyway

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I don't like it, I think apsc and ff are different market and apsc market still has room to grow
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It would if Sony were able to make one single half decent standard zoom for the thing . theyve not pulled it off in the last 5 years at any price, Ive come to the conclusion theyre incapable which is amazing as its easier to make glass for smaller sensors (and all they have to do is copy Canon or Fujis superb Mirrorless APS-C lenses) they did it full frame first time round with the FE28-70 and managed it for APS-C DSLR too (16-50 F2.8) .. Weird . they obvilously dont care anyway
 
It's to Sony's credit that their acumen is so good they went it alone and achieved the perfect functionality/bulk/weight compromise in the a7 series.
Keep drinking that Kool-aid, chap
Way too much koolaid

The A7 series is another demographic from APS-C. It was saved from failure initially only because of it's mighty sensor and being first to market - not at all because of Sony's design decisions.

The design decisions that went into the II's are not about compromise honestly - they are about demographics alone. The size and features in the body are telling. They are not compact or consumer grade, they are not even attempting to disguise themselves as one.

The design decisions that went into the I's are not about compromise either - they are about a prototype product to test that demographic, to put a toe in the water. They are first to market, so they are forgiven.

Each of the A7 I's are technically worse than a lowly A5100 - worse at everything but their sensors, which can fit in an A5100 body, ironically. The A7II is technical inferior in a variety of ways as well. The A7RII appears to be better - we will see.

The market for FF cameras must be sufficiently massive to risk APS-C sensors and benefits. That, or they must have applied the A6000 and A5100 technologies and design philosophies to a higher pixel density replacement, and we don't know about it yet.
Humor me. How is an A7I "technically worse" than an A5100? Only thing I can think of is AF, which is irrelevant to the large contingent of A7 owners who don't shoot action or use MF legacy glass 100% of the time anyway. A7 washes A5100 on DR and color depth.... A5100 does beat the A7 on normalized high ISO performance but we are talking half a stop here. For shooting legacy glass the A7 is the better body by an appreciable margin.
 
But Zeiss keeps giving those standard zooms the Zeiss seal of approval. Not Sony's fault. :P
LOL !! , yeah, they`ll do anything for revenue - look at all the Crap compact camera lenses they let their name appear on ....... though it`s nothing new , some of the old eastern Bloc made Carl-Zeiss Jenas were right coke bottles

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Humor me. How is an A7I "technically worse" than an A5100? Only thing I can think of is AF, which is irrelevant to the large contingent of A7 owners who don't shoot action or use MF legacy glass 100% of the time anyway. A7 washes A5100 on DR and color depth.... A5100 does beat the A7 on normalized high ISO performance but we are talking half a stop here. For shooting legacy glass the A7 is the better body by an appreciable margin.
Again, except for the sensor, and it's demographic (the highest end consumers, soccer dad's, and hobbyists), the A7 is weaker, and has inferior technology.

A6000/5100 has a faster processor, much larger buffer, 50mb/s video, wonderful phase detection, better battery, much better wifi implementation and smart phone integration, way higher pixel density, (for the A5100) effective touch to focus, touch to track, touch to snap, quicker face detection, "selfie" potential, quieter (although no by much) shutter, among others.

Sign me up whenever Sony get's serious about FF consumer grade cameras - not A7 prototypes, and not II professional cameras - ones that capable, fast, and compact, ones that are for the masses.
 
Humor me. How is an A7I "technically worse" than an A5100? Only thing I can think of is AF, which is irrelevant to the large contingent of A7 owners who don't shoot action or use MF legacy glass 100% of the time anyway. A7 washes A5100 on DR and color depth.... A5100 does beat the A7 on normalized high ISO performance but we are talking half a stop here. For shooting legacy glass the A7 is the better body by an appreciable margin.
Again, except for the sensor, and it's demographic (the highest end consumers, soccer dad's, and hobbyists), the A7 is weaker, and has inferior technology.
Lol, EXCEPT FOR THE SENSOR lmao. And what piece of Sony documentation do you have that explicitly outlines the A7's target market?
A6000/5100 has a faster processor, much larger buffer, 50mb/s video, wonderful phase detection, better battery, much better wifi implementation and smart phone integration, way higher pixel density, (for the A5100) effective touch to focus, touch to track, touch to snap, quicker face detection, "selfie" potential, quieter (although no by much) shutter, among others.
If any of these things mattered more than the difference in format you tried to take out of a discussion on Sony's shift in focus on format types, why are people still paying 2-4x as much for A7s as they are A6000s/A5100s? Why are people buying $650 focal length reducers, which make the A6000 more expensive than the A7, but still leave it with an inferior EVF, controls and worse AF? And how is the A5100/A6000 battery better when there is no grip option?
Sign me up whenever Sony get's serious about FF consumer grade cameras - not A7 prototypes, and not II professional cameras - ones that capable, fast, and compact, ones that are for the masses.
Sony is undercutting Canikon in price and implementing technologies never seen before on a full frame camera. You can't rationalize irrational bias, but that is what you are trying to do here.
 
Plus they can make FF cameras for very cheap. Those bright viewfinders, oil free mirrors and myriad of AF modules cost money.
Please show us the affordable Sony FF. How much is the cheaper Sony FF ?
Please reference the starting price of the NEX-7 and A6000, or NEX-5 and A5100, for an example.

Then imagine the A7, priced similar to the NEX-7 originally, and its lesser quality build, plastic body, cheaper EVF (or no EVF) but larger production volume FF younger brother.
imagine, exactly...
The a7 is retailing around 1K at the moment. That's already pretty cheap. In time these cameras will only get cheaper, as they get cycled out by newer models especially.
US$1200.00 is the lowest I can find. This is far from the retail price of the a6000
It is 1k CHF here in Switzerland, close to 1 K USD. Nobody is saying it is a6000 price, but we are seeing over time a steady reduction in price for FF cameras. I would not be surprised if we start seeing some basic FF camera bodies being released at or under 1K in the near future. Just my opinion of course.
 
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Humor me. How is an A7I "technically worse" than an A5100? Only thing I can think of is AF, which is irrelevant to the large contingent of A7 owners who don't shoot action or use MF legacy glass 100% of the time anyway. A7 washes A5100 on DR and color depth.... A5100 does beat the A7 on normalized high ISO performance but we are talking half a stop here. For shooting legacy glass the A7 is the better body by an appreciable margin.
Again, except for the sensor, and it's demographic (the highest end consumers, soccer dad's, and hobbyists), the A7 is weaker, and has inferior technology.
Lol, EXCEPT FOR THE SENSOR lmao. And what piece of Sony documentation do you have that explicitly outlines the A7's target market?
A6000/5100 has a faster processor, much larger buffer, 50mb/s video, wonderful phase detection, better battery, much better wifi implementation and smart phone integration, way higher pixel density, (for the A5100) effective touch to focus, touch to track, touch to snap, quicker face detection, "selfie" potential, quieter (although no by much) shutter, among others.
If any of these things mattered more than the difference in format you tried to take out of a discussion on Sony's shift in focus on format types, why are people still paying 2-4x as much for A7s as they are A6000s/A5100s? Why are people buying $650 focal length reducers, which make the A6000 more expensive than the A7, but still leave it with an inferior EVF, controls and worse AF? And how is the A5100/A6000 battery better when there is no grip option?
Sign me up whenever Sony get's serious about FF consumer grade cameras - not A7 prototypes, and not II professional cameras - ones that capable, fast, and compact, ones that are for the masses.
Sony is undercutting Canikon in price and implementing technologies never seen before on a full frame camera. You can't rationalize irrational bias, but that is what you are trying to do here.
You are in forum land I think - think broader than dpreview.com - it's not bias, not at all.

Sales matter - total volume matters - Sony has massive revenue from smaller sensors, camera phone sensors, 1" sensors, and APS-C sensors drive Sony's revenue - FF sensors are a small fraction of this - they will seek to capitalize on their technology at some point - but they haven't even begun to.

Regarding the A7, the positioning of Sony FF sensors in a consumer segment is all that matters over the long haul. In $1k and under cameras, with an upgrade path the likes of an A7RII. As an alternative to American DSLR toting soccer Dad's and hobbiests on dpreview.com - the A7 that is, it is a smaller piece of the pie - it is interesting, widely popular around here, but is not most lucrative.
 
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