Is it time for full frame ...(Sony A7RII) ??

…99% of the rest of us.

And why look only at the EM1? Try the GH4, etc. And the smaller cameras and lenses. Whether you like it or not, the Sony you are talking about is 50% to 100% heavier and bigger.

That is really pathetic use of today's technology in my view.

And the price?

16MPX sensor technology "being left behind"? Hahahahahahahaha! That's silly talk. Of course there is new sensor technology down the road for m43 but the 16MPX sensors are right up there.

Or haven't you taken a picture?
 
Still, the prices will continue to drop on full frame sensors.
Why people keep repeating that? It's not going to happen.

Two thirds of FF cameras released have price well over $2000. Yet, every time people keep bring up that FF prices are going down. They are not.
So is it time?
Not to me. I came to m43 for smaller lenses, and Sony EF is simply not there - neither camera-body-price-wise nor lens-size-selection-wise. Considering that persisting fetish for the shallow DOF, I doubt the lens trend is going to change. Considering the appalling state of the camera market, I too doubt that the camera prices are going to come down in the next 2-3 years.

Otherwise, yes, I'd love to have the GX7+1.7/20mm combo but with the FF sensor - but only if everything else stays the same: features, size, price and handling.
 
Or haven't you taken a picture?

--
Geoffrey Heard
Down and out in Rabaul in the South Pacific
http://rabaulpng.com/we-are-all-traveling-throug/i-waited-51-years-for-tavur.html




63fd361d828c41c0bea0e89bd7e649a3.jpg
 
I have bought and supported four thirds starting back with the E300 (still have it). I now have a EM5 and I really love it a lot.

I had thought with the advances Olympus was making in M4/3, especially with the OMD series, that the sensor size was finally being accepted by more folks.

Now it looks like Sony is pushing the envelope way out there with it's A7RII. I know ...it's about three times the cost of a EM5MkII!

Still, the prices will continue to drop on full frame sensors. And some of the lenses that most would use on a RII are not THAT large.

Once the new EM1 MkII shows up, I would bet they address the 4K, and it would not surprise me if they get a bit of help from Sony on the focusing front.

But the sensor is getting left behind, and not just in size!

So is it time?

:-)
Full frame market is too congested. It's a small market with Canon, Nikon, Sony and Leica all players. They all had a vested interest in getting into full frame in the first place, with existing full frame lenses that they needed to support.

The prices on full frame lenses haven't changed much in the past decade either. What difference does it make, spending $2000 or $1500 on a camera body when altogether the lenses you need are in the range of $5000?
But they are not.

It would seem certainly not for this new camera.

Canons cheap lenses should work well with an AF adapter, A mount lenses should work well with a simple LA-EA3 adapter.

Then there are/will be some cheaper native lenses too.

The tiny Canon 40 2.8 STM works very well already on an A7/A7s.....it will just be better still on the A7Rii.

The Canon 50 1.8 STM is another very cheap lens that will be much more useful (though not one I would use but if you have it already).

There are Canon lenses at all price points from cheap to very expensive that will work well.....same with A mount lenses.

The camera is not for everyone (it is not for me as it is too dear) but the technology will come into later cheaper cameras.....in a few years I will upgrade from my current A7s and A7 (that I am very happy with along with my GX7).

The coming Kipon adapter also may well mean one Canon lens kit for the most part with three systems (along with the odd lens from E mount and M4/3).
Olympus would have to develop all new cameras and lenses to break into full frame. They would break their own back trying to go down that road. They need to focus on making what they have as good as possible, not bankrupt themselves chasing everybody else.

--
http://www.photoklarno.com
 
No. I went FF and back once. Unless Sony somehow manage to provide same quality/weight/size/speed lenses as my m4/3 lenses (which I don't think is possible for at least the time of my life) and cameras, and same price, I have 0 interest.

The second reason is when I watch my photos in print or my 4k screens I can't see any difference. Staring at some random 1:1 pixels does nothing for me.
 
I have bought and supported four thirds starting back with the E300 (still have it). I now have a EM5 and I really love it a lot.

I had thought with the advances Olympus was making in M4/3, especially with the OMD series, that the sensor size was finally being accepted by more folks.

Now it looks like Sony is pushing the envelope way out there with it's A7RII.
Sounds a little like "the grass is greener ..."
I know ...it's about three times the cost of a EM5MkII!

Still, the prices will continue to drop on full frame sensors.
Not if they keep on stuffing more pixels in - but the A7S was more expensive than the A7R. And they might be picked up quite cheaply very soon - why not save yourself some money?
And some of the lenses that most would use on a RII are not THAT large.
More wishful thinking - some might be acceptable size but a dedicated M4/3 lens of the same equivalent length will almost certainly be smaller. If one looks across the M4/3 room there are such cameras as the GM1/5 that provide a complementary small size body to match. So if size is really your problem then think small within the M4/3 format.
Once the new EM1 MkII shows up, I would bet they address the 4K, and it would not surprise me if they get a bit of help from Sony on the focusing front.
Video ho-hum for those that don't do it. I have Panasonic and still don't do video ...
But the sensor is getting left behind, and not just in size!
I don't see the 4/3 sensor as "left behind" any more than I see the "1" sensor as "useless" - once images are good enough then sensor size gets a bit like worrying about manhood .... ;)
So is it time?

:-)
Only an individual with money to burn knows whether they need another camera. Moving to a complete new system is a huge leap of faith and a lot of money if you already own a decent swag of lenses. The A7 series is certainly more desirable now that Sony seems to have addressed the user interface and improved the many clunky controls and the grip - they even have provided electronic shutter on the A7R but I am not sure if the mechanical one is less noisy.

I am one of those caught with a suite of lenses - in this case Canon EF ones. The A7R was a way to get an evf instead of a mirror-ovf and adapters that would AF my lenses.

However the AF was slow-variable to non existent even though other lens functions worked. The A7R has many awkward controls - neatly overlooked by those who could put up with anything to get that FF sensor image. The menu button on the MkII still resolutely hangs on to the left hand operation - not terribly useful when the same hand is supporting a sizable FF lens.

However I am now twice sour - I have an expensive A7R that takes great images but is not nice to use even if the images are great. Now the same camera has been made completely redundant (the Sony way) by fixing most of the faults that Sony should not have been there in the first place and to cap it off the electronic adapters are now said to give true fast focus with Canon EF lenses .... arrggh.

And of course their is the rumoured A9 - rangefinder style FF sensor body - buy the A7RII, junk the A7R and in no time flat (Sony way) they will soon enough have multiple A9 bodies and then the A7III on the market. Like ... how many variations of the NEX were made?

Surely if the FF sensor is the answer to all prayers then just one properly sorted out FF body might have done the job?

Oh, and whilst Sony has been good with a smorgasbord of bodies, they have been less provident with a similar buffet of suitable FF capable lenses to give their FF sensor bodies proper exercise.

But the A7RII is a very desirable camera my excuse for that desire is that I already have the cache of lenses - however I sincerely wish I had not bought the A7R. Furthermore the A9 is more in line for what I really need.

My money is burning in the M4/3 direction at the moment.
 
The Zoom situation on A7 FF is bad enough with only 12Mp of the A7S to scrutinize it - the 24Mp "old" A7/ new A7II show the 24-70 "Zeiss" up to be mediocre let alone the 36Mp A7R -- the glass is even further behind now with 40-odd Mp thrown at it ..
Have you used the 24-70mm lens? I have and I think it is an excellent piece of kit. No, it isn't edge to edge sharp; it is a zoom after all and they have made it relatively small for a FF standard lens. The contrast and colors are first rate and it works well with the Sony A7ii, which I had. It was just too heavy and expensive, and not what I wanted, so I am back using m4/3 as my go to gear.
This is what Sony do - they make fantastic bodies and forget the glass - in Sony APS-C E mount there isn`t a SINGLE standard zoom capable of making even remotely the best of the very first 14Mp NEX-3 and 5 let alone the A6000 and it doesn`t look like there ever will be As they`ve not managed it in 5 years and are now more interested in FF ....

the FF stuff is going the same way , the best standard zoom is the slow cheap 28-70 F3.5-5.6 kit lens which maybe OK On the 12Mp A7S - I`d hate to pixel peep it on a 45Mp body ! ...
Then use either the 55mm Zeiss 1.8 or the 35mm Zeiss 1.4. Both are excellent lenses and will take full advantage of the A7rii.
 
I am sure the a7r M2 is an excellent camera but not for me. I am extremely happy with m4/3 and the release of the new Sony will push Olympus/Panasonic to making even better cameras and lenses. My next decision is this: 60mm 2.8 or 75mm 1.8?
 
I have bought and supported four thirds starting back with the E300 (still have it). I now have a EM5 and I really love it a lot.

I had thought with the advances Olympus was making in M4/3, especially with the OMD series, that the sensor size was finally being accepted by more folks.

Now it looks like Sony is pushing the envelope way out there with it's A7RII. I know ...it's about three times the cost of a EM5MkII!

Still, the prices will continue to drop on full frame sensors. And some of the lenses that most would use on a RII are not THAT large.

Once the new EM1 MkII shows up, I would bet they address the 4K, and it would not surprise me if they get a bit of help from Sony on the focusing front.

But the sensor is getting left behind, and not just in size!

So is it time?

:-)
Full frame market is too congested. It's a small market with Canon, Nikon, Sony and Leica all players. They all had a vested interest in getting into full frame in the first place, with existing full frame lenses that they needed to support.

The prices on full frame lenses haven't changed much in the past decade either. What difference does it make, spending $2000 or $1500 on a camera body when altogether the lenses you need are in the range of $5000?

Olympus would have to develop all new cameras and lenses to break into full frame. They would break their own back trying to go down that road. They need to focus on making what they have as good as possible, not bankrupt themselves chasing everybody else.

--
http://www.photoklarno.com
+1
 
The A7rII is a VERY interesting body, but the native FE lens lineup puts me off.

The 24-70 f4 sounds pretty lame compared to the Oly 12-40 f2.8 (read photozone's verdict, http://www.photozone.de/sonyalphaff/867-zeiss2470f4oss?start=2 ).

The FE 24-240 is visibly weaker than the Panny 14-140 ( look at the samples at http://www.ephotozine.com/article/sony-fe-24-240mm-f-3-5-6-3-oss-review-27630#Performance - it's apparent even with the web sized jpgs )

The FE 70-200 also seems underwhelming ( http://slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=1655 ).

The 70-400 is supposed to be pretty stellar, but it requires an adapter and is comparatively huge/heavy. It seems nuts to switch to a system, to use adapted lenses that you don't already own.

So, replicating what I use now would mean a big hit in size/weight/cost, and I'm not sure the extra pixels would be used to their best advantage. If I were shooting just a few primes, I might think otherwise.
Yup - anyone buying the Sony A7 series should give up the idea of using zooms. Too big to start with (might as well just use Nikon at that point, with better selection and quality), and simply underwhelming.

So the question becomes, can you be happy shooting with just primes. In this category, both quality and size are more interesting (although selection is still weak).

I currently shoot with 2 zooms: 7-14 f4 and 14-140 Mk ii. Both are ridiculously small, light, and the 14-140 in particular blow the socks off any other superzoom out there. I then shoot with primes, and given that m4/3 primes are faster than Sony FF, I'm not too far behind. By the way, same argument applies when comparing to Fuji. If size is a factor, than m4/3 is very hard to beat in the size/quality dimension.
 
The A7rII is a VERY interesting body, but the native FE lens lineup puts me off.

The 24-70 f4 sounds pretty lame compared to the Oly 12-40 f2.8 (read photozone's verdict, http://www.photozone.de/sonyalphaff/867-zeiss2470f4oss?start=2 ).

The FE 24-240 is visibly weaker than the Panny 14-140 ( look at the samples at http://www.ephotozine.com/article/sony-fe-24-240mm-f-3-5-6-3-oss-review-27630#Performance - it's apparent even with the web sized jpgs )

The FE 70-200 also seems underwhelming ( http://slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=1655 ).

The 70-400 is supposed to be pretty stellar, but it requires an adapter and is comparatively huge/heavy. It seems nuts to switch to a system, to use adapted lenses that you don't already own.

So, replicating what I use now would mean a big hit in size/weight/cost, and I'm not sure the extra pixels would be used to their best advantage. If I were shooting just a few primes, I might think otherwise.
Yup - anyone buying the Sony A7 series should give up the idea of using zooms. Too big to start with (might as well just use Nikon at that point, with better selection and quality), and simply underwhelming.

So the question becomes, can you be happy shooting with just primes. In this category, both quality and size are more interesting (although selection is still weak).

I currently shoot with 2 zooms: 7-14 f4 and 14-140 Mk ii. Both are ridiculously small, light, and the 14-140 in particular blow the socks off any other superzoom out there. I then shoot with primes, and given that m4/3 primes are faster than Sony FF, I'm not too far behind. By the way, same argument applies when comparing to Fuji. If size is a factor, than m4/3 is very hard to beat in the size/quality dimension.
The Sony FE 28-70 kit lens is just fine......the best kit lens I have used anyway (I have an Oly 14-42 ii, a Nikon VRii .....and had a VR 1 amongst others).

The Sony Zeiss 55 1.8 is pretty special.

Even the little 16-50 APSC kit lens has it uses for me on the A7/A7s as does the nice APSC 50 1.8 OSS.

Other thing is I can pick and choose lenses from many systems.

Currently my favourites include Canon 17 f4 L and 24 3.5ii L tilt shift lenses, the Canon EF 135 f2 L and the Canon FD 85 1.2 L.

I am hoping the Canon EF lenses will work as well on my GX7 as they do on my A7 and A7s.....well ok the TS-E lenses wont but the 135 might be nice with a 270 FF angle of view......the cheap but nice 40 2.8 STM is another I look forward to.
 
That's OK Big D, but just to remind you that the Grey Cup has been going for more than a hundred years. The Superbowl is a relative newcomer.:-)

F.

--

"We shoot the things that move us in ways that will move others." David duChemin
 
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Now it looks like Sony is pushing the envelope way out there with it's A7RII. I know ...it's about three times the cost of a EM5MkII!
They also have a rather lame lens selection; they added BSI which doesn't help much with 35mm; you need a very stable platform to get the most out of the sensor, etc etc
But the sensor is getting left behind, and not just in size!
Oh, great. It's another Megapixel War thread in disguise. *yawn*

The reality is that 4/3 sensors don't need a lot more MP, and sooner rather than later they won't be able to increase the MP count in any meaningful way. It is no more true today than it was yesterday, that if you really need more detail, you need a bigger sensor.
 
Now it looks like Sony is pushing the envelope way out there with it's A7RII. I know ...it's about three times the cost of a EM5MkII!
They also have a rather lame lens selection; they added BSI which doesn't help much with 35mm; you need a very stable platform to get the most out of the sensor, etc etc
But the sensor is getting left behind, and not just in size!
Oh, great. It's another Megapixel War thread in disguise. *yawn*

The reality is that 4/3 sensors don't need a lot more MP, and sooner rather than later they won't be able to increase the MP count in any meaningful way. It is no more true today than it was yesterday, that if you really need more detail, you need a bigger sensor.
Agree. When I typed that, the reference was intended to be toward those who have railed for so long against 4/3...whether it be minute or overboard in reference. I was not clear enough.

I am hoping for new sensor tech in the EM1-II to quiet some of the naysayers.
 
Have you used the 24-70mm lens? I have and I think it is an excellent piece of kit. No, it isn't edge to edge sharp
Well it ought to be for the money it costs for a slow F4 zoom .

it`s typical of Sony, the only way to get anything like your moneysworth from the bodies is to use a few select primes - it`s not good enough .
 
I owned FF digital long before I bought into MFT. I still own, and use regularily, my 3 FF cameras. Except that today, my FF cameras have become my studio cameras, a place once exclusively occupied, back in the days of film, by medium format. Today, my FF cameras rarely see the outside of the studio.

For travel, and pleasure, I only use MFT. Smaller, lighter and so much more versatile. The only time I would be tempted to take my D800E would be if I really NEEDED the megapixels. And even then, I could just stitch MFT images, and have same or more MP. So actually, pretty much a push.

FF has things it can do better than MFT, and MFT has things it can do better than FF. So it really depends on what it is you want to do with your cameras and whether MFT would be better than FF in those things... FOR YOU.

What is it you think you would gain from FF that MFT cannot (or does not) offer?

If you really think the grass is greener at Sony, then by all means go for it. But I would not be too quick to sell off your MFT gear if you do. You may find that the Sony grass is not as green as they made it out to be.

Oh, as for lenses, ALL my MFT lenses are way way smaller than all of my FF lenses. Ok, there are one or two exceptions, but surprisingly, those exceptions are old 70's legacy FF lenses. All the new 'modern' FF auto everything lenses are huge.

--
The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'
- Rayna Butler
 
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The lenses are huge and the camera is very expensive. I looked for a 600mm lens in the Sony catalog. Nada...< ... > . So the chances of me personally buying a Sony A7rII are slim and none and Slim left town on the last bus.
 

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