2 missing features with auto-iso

Hi,

As far as I know, no cameras have the following features:

1 - selecting the minimum shutter speed with auto-iso with a dial. Most cameras allow to set aperture and shutter speed very quickly but to be honest, in most cases I would prefer by far selecting a minimum shutter speed !!! In most cases, I don't want to force the shutter speed, I just want to set it as a minimum. It would be better if we could set it very quickly instead of going into the auto-iso menu.

2 - having a mode where the camera selects the maximum (=fastest) of the minimum shutter speed and the shutter speed to avoid camera shake. It would allow to avoid blurriness due to camera shake AND subject motion automatically. It is in fact natural to do it this way in my opinion.

Strangely, I don't know any camera having these features (if so, please tell me) . This is "only" software, it should not be that complicated.

And

3 - Option to select a limit for aperture so that e.g. in dim light once my preferred limit it reached the camera would start to raise ISO without first forcing aperture wide open. This would help me on travels with my Tamron 16-300 which is quite fine if I could block the f3.6 which is very blurry. I can deal with f5.6 and ISO 1600 but any ISO with f3.6 is a wasted shot.

Christof21 said:

Hi,

As far as I know, no cameras have the following features:

1 - selecting the minimum shutter speed with auto-iso with a dial. Most cameras allow to set aperture and shutter speed very quickly but to be honest, in most cases I would prefer by far selecting a minimum shutter speed !!! In most cases, I don't want to force the shutter speed, I just want to set it as a minimum. It would be better if we could set it very quickly instead of going into the auto-iso menu2 - ...

Click to expand...

A possible work around. (assumes that the camera has auto ISO and allows setting min and max ISO values). (a) Using A mode, set appropriate Aperture (probably fast) (b) set minimum ISO to a highish value eg 400/800. The camera is now forced to choose a faster shutter speed since it can not select base ISO with good lighting.

Not too elegant I am afraid :-D

Bert

Christof21 said:

Hi,

As far as I know, no cameras have the following features:

1 - selecting the minimum shutter speed with auto-iso with a dial. Most cameras allow to set aperture and shutter speed very quickly but to be honest, in most cases I would prefer by far selecting a minimum shutter speed !!! In most cases, I don't want to force the shutter speed, I just want to set it as a minimum. It would be better if we could set it very quickly instead of going into the auto-iso menu.

Click to expand...

I've been asking for this for some time, but within a more extensive, complete overhaul of a camera's operations at a very deep, fundamental level. In many ways camera manufacturers still think like there still is a roll of film in their cameras.

But the current somewhat reactionary retro trend isn't exactly giving me confidence about it. Because now I've got to choose between the PASM + programmable dials design paradigm or the labelled dials design paradigm, and I find both of them very lacking in many ways (for example, none of them address the issue of exposure controls being mostly conceived as a dichotomy between "the camera decides all by itself" or "you have to manually input the precise value yourself" - at the root of two of your issues - a problem that auto ISO settings try to mitigate, in the sense that they give users a degree of control over a camera's automatism, but the implementation is clumsy as it's mostly just a patch over a fundamentally flawed system anyway).

Pentax has a fast TAv setting as well as the Manual, which Nikon, etc. must use.

22codfish said:

Pentax has a fast TAv setting as well as the Manual, which Nikon, etc. must use.

Click to expand...

I doubt you set the minimum shutter speed for auto-iso, you set explicitely the shutter speed, right ?.

Tav is nice but could be better. In most cases, I want to set the minimum shutter speed, not the shutter speed. If the camera can select a faster shutter speed, this is a bonus !!

22codfish said:

Pentax has a fast TAv setting as well as the Manual, which Nikon, etc. must use.

Click to expand...

The OP's issue isn't to be able to quickly set the shutter speed, but to quickly set the minimum shutter speed.

Currently the fastest way to change the minimum shutter speed is to use custom modes.

Such as high speed priority, MTF priority or either DoF deep or shallow options.
--
Steve

www.pbase.com/steephill

MayaTlab0 said:

Christof21 said:

Hi,

As far as I know, no cameras have the following features:

1 - selecting the minimum shutter speed with auto-iso with a dial. Most cameras allow to set aperture and shutter speed very quickly but to be honest, in most cases I would prefer by far selecting a minimum shutter speed !!! In most cases, I don't want to force the shutter speed, I just want to set it as a minimum. It would be better if we could set it very quickly instead of going into the auto-iso menu.

Click to expand...

I've been asking for this for some time, but within a more extensive, complete overhaul of a camera's operations at a very deep, fundamental level. In many ways camera manufacturers still think like there still is a roll of film in their cameras.

Click to expand...

I agree with you.

To be honest, this is a mystery for me. There is competition between camera makers and none of them think about this...

Are they reluctant in some way ? Maybe. Consider the time they take to implement a good auto-iso, Sony and Fuji's implementation are still not satisfying (compared to Nikon).

MayaTlab0 said:

But the current somewhat reactionary retro trend isn't exactly giving me confidence about it. Because now I've got to choose between the PASM + programmable dials design paradigm or the labelled dials design paradigm, and I find both of them very lacking in many ways (for example, none of them address the issue of exposure controls being mostly conceived as a dichotomy between "the camera decides all by itself" or "you have to manually input the precise value yourself" - at the root of two of your issues - a problem that auto ISO settings try to mitigate, in the sense that they give users a degree of control over a camera's automatism, but the implementation is clumsy as it's mostly just a patch over a fundamentally flawed system anyway).

Click to expand...

auto-iso could be almost perfect in my opinion. Shoot in aperture priority mode with auto-iso, for me it is almost like shooting in manual because I would select the same exposure parameters in manual. It is just faster.

They are not far from a very satisfying system.

Christof21 said:

Hi,

As far as I know, no cameras have the following features:

1 - selecting the minimum shutter speed with auto-iso with a dial. Most cameras allow to set aperture and shutter speed very quickly but to be honest, in most cases I would prefer by far selecting a minimum shutter speed !!! In most cases, I don't want to force the shutter speed, I just want to set it as a minimum. It would be better if we could set it very quickly instead of going into the auto-iso menu.

Click to expand...

I assume you are talking about Av mode. With Nikon, you select minimum shutter speed in two ways. Either as an absolute value, such as 1/80s or as a ratio to focal length. When you set a ratio, it can be 4/FL, 2/FL, 1/FL, 1/2xFL and 1/4xFL. If you cannot get what you want under this system, you might as well just use full auto.

Member said:

2 - having a mode where the camera selects the maximum (=fastest) of the minimum shutter speed and the shutter speed to avoid camera shake. It would allow to avoid blurriness due to camera shake AND subject motion automatically. It is in fact natural to do it this way in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Maximum minimum itself is oxymoron. There can be only one minimum, there isnt a range within minimum which you can pick an maximum. On a Nikon, with a 85 lens, you can either set Minimum shutter at 1/80 for more light, or 1/320 to free motion, so I dont see what the problem is.

Member said:

Strangely, I don't know any camera having these features (if so, please tell me) . This is "only" software, it should not be that complicated.

Click to expand...

Between M and Av and Nikon's Auto-ISO, I dont see anything else that need to be added.

idr said:

And

3 - Option to select a limit for aperture so that e.g. in dim light once my preferred limit it reached the camera would start to raise ISO without first forcing aperture wide open. This would help me on travels with my Tamron 16-300 which is quite fine if I could block the f3.6 which is very blurry. I can deal with f5.6 and ISO 1600 but any ISO with f3.6 is a wasted shot.

Click to expand...

Arent you talking about Av mode with Auto-iso? You set aperture to F5.6, let the camera pick shutter speed and ISO based on metering. You can set minimum SS on a ratio to FL or as fixed.

Christof21 said:

22codfish said:

Pentax has a fast TAv setting as well as the Manual, which Nikon, etc. must use.

Click to expand...

I doubt you set the minimum shutter speed for auto-iso, you set explicitely the shutter speed, right ?.

Tav is nice but could be better. In most cases, I want to set the minimum shutter speed, not the shutter speed. If the camera can select a faster shutter speed, this is a bonus !!

Click to expand...

With my Nikon, I set both a minimum shutter speed and a maximum ISO. I change the aperture setting manually, and the camera selects shutter and ISO.

Christof21 said:

MayaTlab0 said:

Christof21 said:

Hi,

As far as I know, no cameras have the following features:

1 - selecting the minimum shutter speed with auto-iso with a dial. Most cameras allow to set aperture and shutter speed very quickly but to be honest, in most cases I would prefer by far selecting a minimum shutter speed !!! In most cases, I don't want to force the shutter speed, I just want to set it as a minimum. It would be better if we could set it very quickly instead of going into the auto-iso menu.

Click to expand...

I've been asking for this for some time, but within a more extensive, complete overhaul of a camera's operations at a very deep, fundamental level. In many ways camera manufacturers still think like there still is a roll of film in their cameras.

Click to expand...

I agree with you.

To be honest, this is a mystery for me. There is competition between camera makers and none of them think about this...

Are they reluctant in some way ? Maybe.

Click to expand...

I think it's rather a case of very poor design teams, meaning tons of related issues : incoherent design choices galore (ex, at a vary fundamental level : why is it that we're given tons of jpeg customisations while a lot of cameras' screens are still so badly calibrated - and even worse, when the two screens on a mirrorless camera disagree with each others ? Or why is it that Canon didn't give the 5Ds the 7DII's lever, and yet give them the ability to change exposure compensation in M mode, one thing for which the lever is very useful ?), improper evaluation of how photographers actually use the cameras they make, improper evaluation of what features will interest what kind of users (was it really necessary to market the NX1's auto shutter triggering system to its potential user base, or Olympus' color creator ? I'm not sure), terrible software design (the legendary Olympus menus for example), the list goes on.

Member said:

Consider the time they take to implement a good auto-iso, Sony and Fuji's implementation are still not satisfying (compared to Nikon).

Click to expand...

I don't think it's a question of resources as they seem to have all the time and resources in the world to come up with features that might be sometimes useful, but that I don't think many photographers would prioritise over others, simpler features yet to be implemented. For example, Olympus' digital keystoning can actually be pretty useful (mainly to anticipate framing with PP keystoning in mind), but I would have never put it at the top of the list of to-do things at Olympus' HQ. They have far bigger issues to solve.

ultimitsu said:

Christof21 said:

Hi,

As far as I know, no cameras have the following features:

1 - selecting the minimum shutter speed with auto-iso with a dial. Most cameras allow to set aperture and shutter speed very quickly but to be honest, in most cases I would prefer by far selecting a minimum shutter speed !!! In most cases, I don't want to force the shutter speed, I just want to set it as a minimum. It would be better if we could set it very quickly instead of going into the auto-iso menu.

Click to expand...

I assume you are talking about Av mode. With Nikon, you select minimum shutter speed in two ways. Either as an absolute value, such as 1/80s or as a ratio to focal length. When you set a ratio, it can be 4/FL, 2/FL, 1/FL, 1/2xFL and 1/4xFL. If you cannot get what you want under this system, you might as well just use full auto.

Click to expand...

I want to be able to set the absolute value very quickly.

ultimitsu said:

ultimitsu said:

2 - having a mode where the camera selects the maximum (=fastest) of the minimum shutter speed and the shutter speed to avoid camera shake. It would allow to avoid blurriness due to camera shake AND subject motion automatically. It is in fact natural to do it this way in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Maximum minimum itself is oxymoron. There can be only one minimum, there isnt a range within minimum which you can pick an maximum. On a Nikon, with a 85 lens, you can either set Minimum shutter at 1/80 for more light, or 1/320 to free motion, so I dont see what the problem is.

Click to expand...

Maximum minimum is not a paradox.

say m1 = minimum shutter speed set by user.

Minimum shutter speed = max (m1,k/focale)

Consider you shoot a portrait and you consider 1/60s is a minimum for portrait

But you shoot with a 300mm (fixed focal)

Then the camera will select at least 1/300s, not 1/60s. This is what I want.

Both camera shake and subject motion are taken into account. It may seem complicated but it is easy in fact.

ultimitsu said:

ultimitsu said:

Strangely, I don't know any camera having these features (if so, please tell me) . This is "only" software, it should not be that complicated.

Click to expand...

Between M and Av and Nikon's Auto-ISO, I dont see anything else that need to be added.

Click to expand...

Christof21 said:

say m1 = minimum shutter speed set by user.

Minimum shutter speed = max (m1,k/focale)

Consider you shoot a portrait and you consider 1/60s is a minimum for portrait

But you shoot with a 300mm (fixed focal)

Then the camera will select at least 1/300s, not 1/60s. This is what I want.

Click to expand...

If I understand you well :

On Nikon cameras (for example), you can choose to set the minimum shutter speed :

a) either by selecting a fixed value, for example, in the case above, 1/60,

b) or by selecting the "auto" option, which you can then bias up or down, and which will select the minimum shutter speed according to the focal length you're using.

What you would like is the ability to not have to choose between them, but to be able to combine them, am I wrong ?

The result would be, for example, that, if you're using a 28-300mm lens, have set the minimum shutter speed to 1/60 + auto (without bias), the camera would never go below 1/60th at any time, but would raise the minimum shutter speed once you get past the 60mm focal length.

Christof21 said:

ultimitsu said:

Christof21 said:

Hi,

As far as I know, no cameras have the following features:

1 - selecting the minimum shutter speed with auto-iso with a dial. Most cameras allow to set aperture and shutter speed very quickly but to be honest, in most cases I would prefer by far selecting a minimum shutter speed !!! In most cases, I don't want to force the shutter speed, I just want to set it as a minimum. It would be better if we could set it very quickly instead of going into the auto-iso menu.

Click to expand...

I assume you are talking about Av mode. With Nikon, you select minimum shutter speed in two ways. Either as an absolute value, such as 1/80s or as a ratio to focal length. When you set a ratio, it can be 4/FL, 2/FL, 1/FL, 1/2xFL and 1/4xFL. If you cannot get what you want under this system, you might as well just use full auto.

Click to expand...

I want to be able to set the absolute value very quickly.

Click to expand...

There are two ways to deal with this in practice:

1, use M + Auto-ISO

2, use U1 and U2 mode. My default Minimum SS is 1/FL, I got U1 on 2/FL and U2 on 1/2xFL.

Member said:

Member said:

Member said:

2 - having a mode where the camera selects the maximum (=fastest) of the minimum shutter speed and the shutter speed to avoid camera shake. It would allow to avoid blurriness due to camera shake AND subject motion automatically. It is in fact natural to do it this way in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Maximum minimum itself is oxymoron. There can be only one minimum, there isnt a range within minimum which you can pick an maximum. On a Nikon, with a 85 lens, you can either set Minimum shutter at 1/80 for more light, or 1/320 to free motion, so I dont see what the problem is.

Click to expand...

Maximum minimum is not a paradox.

say m1 = minimum shutter speed set by user.

Minimum shutter speed = max (m1,k/focale)

Consider you shoot a portrait and you consider 1/60s is a minimum for portrait

But you shoot with a 300mm (fixed focal)

Then the camera will select at least 1/300s, not 1/60s. This is what I want.

Both camera shake and subject motion are taken into account. It may seem complicated but it is easy in fact.

Click to expand...

Like I said, Nikon camera already does this, you can set Minimum ss to be 1/FL, so when you use 60mm lens, it is 1/60s, when you use 300mm lens, it is 1/320s.

MayaTlab0 said:

Christof21 said:

say m1 = minimum shutter speed set by user.

Minimum shutter speed = max (m1,k/focale)

Consider you shoot a portrait and you consider 1/60s is a minimum for portrait

But you shoot with a 300mm (fixed focal)

Then the camera will select at least 1/300s, not 1/60s. This is what I want.

Click to expand...

If I understand you well :

On Nikon cameras (for example), you can choose to set the minimum shutter speed :

a) either by selecting a fixed value, for example, in the case above, 1/60,

b) or by selecting the "auto" option, which you can then bias up or down, and which will select the minimum shutter speed according to the focal length you're using.

What you would like is the ability to not have to choose between them, but to be able to combine them, am I wrong ?

Click to expand...

Exactly

ultimitsu said:

Like I said, Nikon camera already does this, you can set Minimum ss to be 1/FL, so when you use 60mm lens, it is 1/60s, when you use 300mm lens, it is 1/320s.

Click to expand...

That’s what I do, or rather, set it a bit higher to avoid too much possible camera shake.

Christof21 said:

MayaTlab0 said:

Christof21 said:

say m1 = minimum shutter speed set by user.

Minimum shutter speed = max (m1,k/focale)

Consider you shoot a portrait and you consider 1/60s is a minimum for portrait

But you shoot with a 300mm (fixed focal)

Then the camera will select at least 1/300s, not 1/60s. This is what I want.

Click to expand...

If I understand you well :

On Nikon cameras (for example), you can choose to set the minimum shutter speed :

a) either by selecting a fixed value, for example, in the case above, 1/60,

b) or by selecting the "auto" option, which you can then bias up or down, and which will select the minimum shutter speed according to the focal length you're using.

What you would like is the ability to not have to choose between them, but to be able to combine them, am I wrong ?

Click to expand...

Exactly

Click to expand...

Very useful if you have a zoom for instance...

You may have to switch the mode while you zoom currently. If you had this new mode, no need to bother about it

Christof21 said:

Christof21 said:

MayaTlab0 said:

Christof21 said:

This is what I want.

Click to expand...

If I understand you well :

On Nikon cameras (for example), you can choose to set the minimum shutter speed :

a) either by selecting a fixed value, for example, in the case above, 1/60,

b) or by selecting the "auto" option, which you can then bias up or down, and which will select the minimum shutter speed according to the focal length you're using.

What you would like is the ability to not have to choose between them, but to be able to combine them, am I wrong ?

Click to expand...

Exactly

Click to expand...

Very useful if you have a zoom for instance...

You may have to switch the mode while you zoom currently. If you had this new mode, no need to bother about it

Click to expand...

We're on the same page here, it seems the logical step to make.