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Very, very bad Canon day

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Ravalls wrote:
snip:

"Personally I have found this kind of horror stories useful, because they keep me on my toes when giving out my money"

That's also how I feel about it. However, a lot of people would like to "silence" everyone opening their mouth about the AF (or any) problem. THAT IS NOT GOING TO HELP CANON USERS IN THE LONG RUNG. FOR SURE.

Geir Ove
Ravalls said:
I just came back from a job in an operafestival. There has been
some abuse in the thread, but I guess that is just par for the
course.

Anyway, my aggrevated posting was meant to be like a vote in an
election: one voice among the many. Personally I have found this
kind of horror stories useful, because they keep me on my toes when
giving out my money.

About my problems: yes, I have the body number three now, but that
is a bit misleading. Number two was only a backup from the store
that exhibited the same LENS problem as number one.

Number one died on the operating table, so actually I have now
number two.

The other problems are still the same. I just checked my pics
(sorry, can't post them from here) and the 28-135 is mostly messy
and my Sigma 15-30 variates between splendid and badly backfocused.

I also talked with the festival photographer, who was using 10D. He
had had it serviced once and was really bitter about it. "This job
is difficult enough without unreliable gear" was his comment. He
was very happy with his D60, though, and recommended it to me.

I am quite uncertain at this moment. The 10D colours are WONDERFUL
and when the pic is sharp, the quality at ISO 800 is superb. I
would hate to change to another brand and I dread the price and
weight of 1Ds kit.

Any suggestions?

By the way, I got a message that Canon will give me another memory
card to replace the lost one.

Regards,

Ravalls
still Canonman
Click to expand...
 
That just goes to show that Canon is looking at this forum. I do not think this is hurting sales, but I would bet Canon is not comfortable with all the bad threads about the focus issues of the 10D on this forum. And threads about bad customer service. You never hear about all the good and positive situations.
Ravalls said:
By the way, I got a message that Canon will give me another memory
card to replace the lost one.
Click to expand...
--

'More people shoot Nikon than all other companies combined'. quote from 2003 Nikon Presentation. http://www.pbase.com/daytontp/
 
The AF sensor is not comprised of boxes. It is an "area" sensor.



I think the "boxes" are more of a programming and usability distinction.

I'm not sure which generation of AF the 10D has, but I assume it's the same as their Elan/EOS3/1v bodies. According to my 1v literature, the area AF system uses two kinds of sensor elements that are "able to complement and compensate for each other". Most of them are horizontal line detectors, which operate with lenses with max f/5.6 or larger, and are best at focusing on moving subjects. The central seven points also incorporate vertical line detection sensors, six of which operate with lenses max f/2.8 or larger - these hypothetically are much more accurate than the vertical sensors. The center focusing point uses both horizontal and vertical sensors, and functions with lenses with a maximum aperture of f/4 or greater.



This is how the 1v works, with 45 AF points. I don't know the sensor composition on the 10D, but I would guess that it is either the same sensor or perhaps a stripped down one, with smaller size and lower resolution due to the 10D crop factor. Clearly, the AF system is pretty complicated and capable of producing "intelligently" incorrect results.
Rune Moberg said:
Jason Conner said:
I think the kicker is that, instead of hunting around if what's in
the AF box is "unclear" to AF, it starts looking outside the box a
bit and locks on that. This means that AF can lock on something
that's outside the box if it's "contrastier" than what's in the box.
Click to expand...
This again assumes some form of 'intelligence' on the AF's part and
to me suggests a sensor outside the sensor...

Either that or the AF point is simply bigger than what's indicated
by the red rectangle. (maybe something in your experiment
eliminates this possibility -- but I pose the question anyway)

Interesting pictures though. I'm tempted to post a link in Rob
Galbraith's forums and see if anyone there (i.e. Chuck) will offer
some clues.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
Click to expand...
 
I bet he just complained to Canon, and they agreed to replace the card.

It's not indicative that they read DPR.

Of course, they may read it.
daytontp said:
Ravalls said:
By the way, I got a message that Canon will give me another memory
card to replace the lost one.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
 
Jason Conner said:
As you can see, the AF point is dead-on the wood, but AF chose the
branches instead:
Click to expand...
The branches look a little out of focus, but that could be my eyes, my monitor, etc. In any event, this is a good example of what appears to be a repeatable demonstration showing the relationship between the true area of the focus "point," the contrast in the target and the focus result.
 
Ravalls said:
Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Just treat 10D as an extremely dumb camera (just like D30) and lock AF to the most clear contrast you can find, until you get a replacement or fix. Also, please note that that even a "good" 10D's AF can be very "flakey" depending on target and above advice is probably in place at all times :) The wider the lens, the more careful and alert I need to be, and I use single focus points only (center preferred). Odd thing: adjusting viewfinder diopter to -1.5 made it a lot easier for me to see the current focus plane, even if my eyesight is just fine.
Ravalls said:
By the way, I got a message that Canon will give me another memory
card to replace the lost one.
Click to expand...
I did not doubt that for a moment.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
 
...all other out of focus pics we have seen where almost everything in the viewfinder is at the same distance from the camera. And I can take 50 pictures of a flat brick wall or a house with lots of contrast and none of them are in focus. With all my three lenses and the 10D, which all of them just returned from Canon service with "adjusted and checked AF function".

I'm getting so tired of all this.

--
Tommy
 
Pekka Saarinen said:
Ravalls said:
Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Just treat 10D as an extremely dumb camera (just like D30) and lock
AF to the most clear contrast you can find, until you get a
replacement or fix. Also, please note that that even a "good" 10D's
AF can be very "flakey" depending on target and above advice is
probably in place at all times :) The wider the lens, the more
careful and alert I need to be, and I use single focus points only
(center preferred). Odd thing: adjusting viewfinder diopter to -1.5
made it a lot easier for me to see the current focus plane, even if
my eyesight is just fine.
Pekka Saarinen said:
By the way, I got a message that Canon will give me another memory
card to replace the lost one.
Click to expand...
I did not doubt that for a moment.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
Click to expand...
Pekka, I know you moved to the 10D from the D30. Have you used a 1D--and how did you find the focus different--if you have? )(we know it is MUCH faster--I guess I'm speaking of accuracy). And--do you find the AF more or less of a pain from the D30 to the 10D as far as accuracy? I shoot with a D60--and now a D30 occasionally also--and knowing how the AF works (back from my G1 days LOL), I don't have a problem with either of these. Do you think the AF change on the 10D, with all its myriad problems for some, is for the good--or not?
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
B/W lover, but color is seducing me
 
The cost is not that much more but the weight is. And 4.1 MP is not all that bad.

Steven
Ravalls said:
I just came back from a job in an operafestival. There has been
some abuse in the thread, but I guess that is just par for the
course.

Anyway, my aggrevated posting was meant to be like a vote in an
election: one voice among the many. Personally I have found this
kind of horror stories useful, because they keep me on my toes when
giving out my money.

About my problems: yes, I have the body number three now, but that
is a bit misleading. Number two was only a backup from the store
that exhibited the same LENS problem as number one.

Number one died on the operating table, so actually I have now
number two.

The other problems are still the same. I just checked my pics
(sorry, can't post them from here) and the 28-135 is mostly messy
and my Sigma 15-30 variates between splendid and badly backfocused.

I also talked with the festival photographer, who was using 10D. He
had had it serviced once and was really bitter about it. "This job
is difficult enough without unreliable gear" was his comment. He
was very happy with his D60, though, and recommended it to me.

I am quite uncertain at this moment. The 10D colours are WONDERFUL
and when the pic is sharp, the quality at ISO 800 is superb. I
would hate to change to another brand and I dread the price and
weight of 1Ds kit.

Any suggestions?

By the way, I got a message that Canon will give me another memory
card to replace the lost one.

Regards,

Ravalls
still Canonman
Click to expand...
--
---
New and Updated!!!
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/spring_gc_trip
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/out_of_africa
 
You actually have to read thru several patents to get a complete picture.

Most of what you need is in the sections before the legal claims section. If I find time I may try and decypher it, but I am a little busy right now and it is not too important to me. I am still waiting for my 1D to come back from service due to focus problems recently. I cannot exactly call them front or rear focus issues, but there was definitely something wierd with the camera.
DavidP said:
John Mankos said:
Never, ever once occured to me to check the patent website.

I'll read this tonight after I'm done with work.....
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
Click to expand...
 
Diane B said:
Pekka, I know you moved to the 10D from the D30. Have you used a
1D--and how did you find the focus different--if you have? )(we
know it is MUCH faster--I guess I'm speaking of accuracy). And--do
you find the AF more or less of a pain from the D30 to the 10D as
far as accuracy? I shoot with a D60--and now a D30 occasionally
also--and knowing how the AF works (back from my G1 days LOL), I
don't have a problem with either of these. Do you think the AF
change on the 10D, with all its myriad problems for some, is for
the good--or not?
Click to expand...
Hi Diane,

10D has its problems (mainly AF, but some in firmware, too) but as I like its image quality so much better than my D30 and especially D60 (lousy WB and jaggies) I'm willing to cope with its oddities. 10D AF is not that hard to get used to, just think it's a D30 with speed and juvenile attitude. Despite needing some 'extra attention' 10D has produced much bigger percent of good shots than D30 or D60 I had. I've got very good results when shooting high-paced closeup action, too, is similar situations D30 and D60 gave me about 40% less tack sharp shots simply because they were so slow to focus.

In technical point of view only two things matter in the end - image quality is second and first is that you have the image stored in CF. That is why I prefer 10D's fast operational speed, and some focus lock instead hunting - even if that lock is not always exactly there. But, in time I have got more and more accurate with it so it seems it can be tamed after all.

1D is not an option to me, and has never been (mainly because of its loud shutter noise, and because I'm always broke), but if I'd do this fulltime for living I would have one next to 10D for action shooting and lousy weather situations. I have not used one, but I have talked about it with press photographers who do and they have all been happy with it (apart from dust problems).

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
 
I just tried the same thing with my D60 body. It focused on the wood in both locations:





When the AF point was centered completely in the shade area, however, it hunted continuously and refused to lock. This shot is where AF seemed to settle (I switched to MF and shot):



I'm convinced that the D60 AF is "tighter" - it focuses strictly inside the box - whereas the 10D AF is a bit looser and focuses a bit around the box, sort of like center-weighted metering -vs- spot metering.
Jason Conner said:


I think the "boxes" are more of a programming and usability
distinction.

I'm not sure which generation of AF the 10D has, but I assume it's
the same as their Elan/EOS3/1v bodies. According to my 1v
literature, the area AF system uses two kinds of sensor elements
that are "able to complement and compensate for each other". Most
of them are horizontal line detectors, which operate with lenses
with max f/5.6 or larger, and are best at focusing on moving
subjects. The central seven points also incorporate vertical line
detection sensors, six of which operate with lenses max f/2.8 or
larger - these hypothetically are much more accurate than the
vertical sensors. The center focusing point uses both horizontal
and vertical sensors, and functions with lenses with a maximum
aperture of f/4 or greater.



This is how the 1v works, with 45 AF points. I don't know the
sensor composition on the 10D, but I would guess that it is either
the same sensor or perhaps a stripped down one, with smaller size
and lower resolution due to the 10D crop factor. Clearly, the AF
system is pretty complicated and capable of producing
"intelligently" incorrect results.
Rune Moberg said:
Jason Conner said:
I think the kicker is that, instead of hunting around if what's in
the AF box is "unclear" to AF, it starts looking outside the box a
bit and locks on that. This means that AF can lock on something
that's outside the box if it's "contrastier" than what's in the box.
Click to expand...
This again assumes some form of 'intelligence' on the AF's part and
to me suggests a sensor outside the sensor...

Either that or the AF point is simply bigger than what's indicated
by the red rectangle. (maybe something in your experiment
eliminates this possibility -- but I pose the question anyway)

Interesting pictures though. I'm tempted to post a link in Rob
Galbraith's forums and see if anyone there (i.e. Chuck) will offer
some clues.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Interesting. But then I think the peak of postings of very obvious defects was maybe slightly before you joined. That said, I see pictures exhibiting focusing issues on a regular basis here (e.g. that recent dog one). I also see pictures that are said to be "pin sharp" yet have been scaled to 20% of their original size and USMed. I think at the end of the day, if a user is happy with the results they're getting, then that's goodness, but I think there are plenty of people who are happy with this camera who, if they were rather more discerning, wouldn't be. Even someone as experienced as Shutter has vacillated over whether the results were everthing that could be expected from a $1500 camera.

Cheers,
Pete
Louis4 said:
Louis4 said:
You've never seen an image that can't be traced back to user error
because there are none.
Click to expand...
Not true - AF system can be in need of realignment (due to a whole
bunch of reasons), that's nothing new. There are also warranty
cases. It's just that I haven't seen pictures illustrating AF
defects on the Internet, and especially not in this forum.
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/pcockerell
http://www.peter-cockerell.net:8080/
 
Sorry to hear you have had such trouble. I know a lot of folks have been reporting problems with the 10D.

I've had a D60 for over a year. No regrets. I know the criticisms people have of the camera, but in my opinion the camera is a fantastic value. Maybe you should try to hunt down a used one.
-Kevin
 
The background is a lot darker in those images.

Tomorrow, shoot the D60 when the background is brighter, and shoot the 10D when the background is darker.

That should shed some light on the subject.
Jason Conner said:
I just tried the same thing with my D60 body. It focused on the
wood in both locations:
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
 
The first set was shot at 4:00, the second set at 3:30. Both shot from the same seat next to the BBQ. I'll try again tomorrow, but I don't think 30 minutes will make much difference. The D60 metering is probably off.

The bottom line is that I could fool the 10D AF but not the D60 AF, but the D60 AF would also refuse to lock in situations of "confusion" and therefore be dead in your hands, refusing to shoot.

Personally, I prefer the 10D. All my lenses are FTM, so I take whatever AF gives me and tweak it anyway. It's more of a shooting-priority camera that way, versus the D60 that would lock up on me.

Ideally, Canon would add these AF preferences as a Custom Function. I can see situations where you want a shot no matter what, even if the focus is a bit off (like photojournalism). I can also see situations where you really want good focus and will be getting a useless picture if it's off (like product photography).
DavidP said:
Tomorrow, shoot the D60 when the background is brighter, and shoot
the 10D when the background is darker.

That should shed some light on the subject.
Jason Conner said:
I just tried the same thing with my D60 body. It focused on the
wood in both locations:
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
Click to expand...
 
I only noticed the background. Forgot about the foreground.

Yep, I guess you're right.
Jason Conner said:
The first set was shot at 4:00, the second set at 3:30. Both shot
from the same seat next to the BBQ. I'll try again tomorrow, but I
don't think 30 minutes will make much difference. The D60 metering
is probably off.
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
 
Geir Ove said:
Ravalls wrote:
snip:
"Personally I have found this kind of horror stories useful,
because they keep me on my toes when giving out my money"

That's also how I feel about it. However, a lot of people would
like to "silence" everyone opening their mouth about the AF (or
any) problem. THAT IS NOT GOING TO HELP CANON USERS IN THE LONG
RUNG. FOR SURE.

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
What dslr do you have Geir?
Geir Ove said:
Ravalls said:
I just came back from a job in an operafestival. There has been
some abuse in the thread, but I guess that is just par for the
course.

Anyway, my aggrevated posting was meant to be like a vote in an
election: one voice among the many. Personally I have found this
kind of horror stories useful, because they keep me on my toes when
giving out my money.

About my problems: yes, I have the body number three now, but that
is a bit misleading. Number two was only a backup from the store
that exhibited the same LENS problem as number one.

Number one died on the operating table, so actually I have now
number two.

The other problems are still the same. I just checked my pics
(sorry, can't post them from here) and the 28-135 is mostly messy
and my Sigma 15-30 variates between splendid and badly backfocused.

I also talked with the festival photographer, who was using 10D. He
had had it serviced once and was really bitter about it. "This job
is difficult enough without unreliable gear" was his comment. He
was very happy with his D60, though, and recommended it to me.

I am quite uncertain at this moment. The 10D colours are WONDERFUL
and when the pic is sharp, the quality at ISO 800 is superb. I
would hate to change to another brand and I dread the price and
weight of 1Ds kit.

Any suggestions?

By the way, I got a message that Canon will give me another memory
card to replace the lost one.

Regards,

Ravalls
still Canonman
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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