M5 MKII who designed this?

Sorry, but my Canon 7D was just as complicated, if not more so, but figuring out the basic shooting parameters took minutes, not hours and days. And same for the GX7, which is only marginally less complicated.
Same here. All have their peculiarities. only EPl5 made me read the booklet time and time again for rather basic features. D800e is not an easy cam, not simple. GH4 is not a simle cam. Gh2 was neither. Etc etc. Just fully agree with your experience.
Almost a Deja Vu here. had the same arguments with programmers who needed to programm an internetsite (well, several). and they reallythought they could design it too. They could not. it was logical to them, but not to the users. I think quite a fewwho like the Oly system resemble those programmers on this point. Also their lacking empathy is a striking resemblance.. to my mind.
As a software developer I can attest that most programmers just do not have a handle on ease of use. Our brains as developers are wired differently from the grand majority and as such what we may consider as efficient and user friendly just does not jive with the general public. Number of times I have seen jaw dropping dumb designs from people who really spent time and effort into making something user friendly is astonishing. I generally consider myself one of the rare types that have a better handle on user friendly design, but I'm not an expert yet if I got a $1 for every time I banged my head against the wall from encountering stupid designs I would be rich.

This Oly menu design discussions has the same past flavours of the same argument that went on for ages between Linux and Windows (or Windows and Apple) fan bases. Generally speaking, Linux was incredibly capable. Too many features to count. Can be customized to the nth degree. But was user unfriendly to a large degree. Normal average Joe's just couldn't get a handle on it. Windows (or Apple) was the opposite. Very capable but not nearly as customizable as Linux but was way more user friendly. Oly menu system is not nearly as crazy as Linux is/was but the same types of arguments/problems exists. Mind you, I'm a Linux user and got along pretty well. Same with Oly menu system. But I do see where the average Joe can/will have problems.
 
I go to the touchscreen....press iso and then......i need the buttons to vhange the settings? This via the scp...?????

Some i think agree when they say he or she could just ask this forum for advice....if that is what it tankes it says a lot.
Could you please explain?
If somebody asks for help when it comes to operating a highly sophisticated electronic device this says what?

I could give you about 20 multiple-choice answers but I'd rather see what you come up with yourself.
 
Thanks for posting. He likes the camera quite a bit. But not the menus! His only bleeped out swear was trying to change a setting. It took him ten minutes--and he's a professional photographer who's handled previous OMDs--to figure out how to change the ISO, cause their ain't no damn ISO button!
That is ridiculous. The SCP is enabled by default but he took 10 minutes to find the ISO setting and he has used Olympus cameras before. . That's a crock of ..... People actually believe this????
 
His only bleeped out swear was trying to change a setting. It took him ten minutes--and he's a professional photographer who's handled previous OMDs--to figure out how to change the ISO, cause their ain't no damn ISO button!
I'm calling BS on this one. A professional photographer who has handled previous OM-D's wouldn't take ten minutes to find the ISO control.
 
The EM5 could make some improvements. With ISO, I use mostly AUTO, 200 and 3200. I want to jump straight to them. Not roll a wheel back and forth. Or click arrow keys loads of times. Especially as AUTO is placed at one end. "Last used" or "Favourites" should be just a click away. And with the touch screen, pressing ISO should fill the screen with every ISO. Tap any one you want, to directly set it. No scrolling about.
 
I hate complicated things but I find the EM-5 MK2 the easiest of cameras to adjust, ever, I don't get it, press the OK button all options are there, customises the fn buttons, all options are there, rotate the dials, all options are there, press the dof button, all options are there, what is wrong with you!!!
Now I have it let me say right away this is the most difficult camera to master , ever! I dont know where to start but since you need to start with the Menu lets try there.

Who thought up the pop up overlays that CANNOT be disabled!

The OK button brings a quick menu to the screen. It has a mind of its own!

The front & rear dials move at the slightest so your carefully selected setting might not be what you intended.

There is no RAW support. OK that night be down to Adobe but the supplied viewer is the only way to load files into LR5 as a tiff so you go from a 17mb file to 85mb to load into LR5 and it seems sometime to import 3 of the same files.

The Manual!! - even the index must have been the same team that designed the menu system. Just try finding out why you are taking HDR when you didn't intend to, or how the touch screen works. Oh not the manual supplied (Useless) but the one on the CD/Downloaded from Oyl.

So unless B&H are sympathetic to a return I'm in for a long learning curve & maybe a few bits sticky tape to stop knobs inadvertently turning.

I researched my choices before buying & not 1 single reviewer mentioned any of the above.

This is an expensive camera & maybe my expectations where too high but it gets rave reviews so my first MFT might need a re-think. I do think the annoyance of those menu overlays might have got me off to a bad start but they really are the most annoying thing, ever.

Please don't reply to this post UNLESS you actually own this camera.
Are the Mysets in the SCP? In my EPl5, they are in the menu. You can say Myset is on or not..But, you need to go to another part of the menu, like 4-5 clicks away I think (may be les) to get to the second chapter of Mysets 9in menu/switch). Now there you can set what button is assigned to MySet1, 2 etc...Is that really convenient? Why are these split? is there any logic to split them up. Arethere people that take an effort to set Myset in part one, but not in part 9so itwon't ever be used)? etc. Now look at Panasonic. The Fn buttons are in the SCP. When you klick on it, you can set everything in a heartbeat.
Yes, it is as easy as Adventsam writes. It is an urban legend that Olympus menus are more complex than the competion. And, please, get informed before you write something: the Fn buttons are in the SCP: lower right corner. Just click on it and you are in the button configuration section of the menu. Regarding Mysets assignment, to me the assignment of a Myset to a button, belongs where it is now: in the button configuration section. It would be not logic to assign a button to a Myset in the Myset configruation menu. Many users don't assign a Myset at all or assign them to a dial position than to a button.

Want to change focus peaking parameters? When focus peaking is active, press INFO and you get icons for changing the parameters for focus peaking, like color an intensity, and screen brightness. There are numerous examples, where it becomes obvious that the overall camera operation, the SCP, and the integration with the menu system is actually quite clever designed. Just get informed, how to use it. Complex cameras aren't easy to comprehend in a few minutes, but an Olympus camera is designed so that you can shoot with it, out of the box, if you wish.

So, to sum up: the operation of the E-M5II is easy. It is one of the most cleverly designed system camera on the market. On par with GH4 and E-M1, much better than X-T1 and A7.
 
Ironically, I'm not as confident with my GX7's interface as my Olympus cameras' interfaces. It's purely down to how comfortable my own brain is with the two approaches, I think. It's not them, it's me!
I don't think this generalization is valid.

There are consumer electronics or computer programs/software that are easy to use, because everything seems logically and works as one would expect. This is not the case with the Oly menu system. One example is setting the size of the focus box:

On Panasonic (e.g. GH4), you can either go to the AF menu (dedicated button) and follow the on-screen instructions (pressing the down arrow) to get to the AF box size menu and resize using the control wheel or just tapping on the screen and see the same menu to move/resize the same AF box. There is no question mark in my mind when following this, it's a plain simple procedure.

On the E-M5II (or any other Olympus), I would also (following simple logic) go to the AF menu in the SCP, click on the Info button to change AF fields and ... that's it. I cannot change the size of the AF field here no matter what I do. All you can do is switch through the 4 different AF types. But you cannot modifiy or move the size of the AF box here in the actual AF menu.
The problem is that you imply that the Panasonic logic, to which you are used to, is the only logic one. To me the AF implementation of Olympus is more simple and logic. I don't like the numerous on screen options of Panasonic, awkward to choose an comprehend. What is easier just to activate the focus magnifyer (that is actually what you are talking about), by just tapping on the screen and change the size of the field with a simple gesture?
To do this, Oly basically implemented a second AF menu (not accessible via the SCP), which can be accessed by touching the screen (if touch screen is enabled!). This will then bring up a totally different AF box which's size can now be changed, but not using the wheels but tapping on the on screen trackbar.

There is no relation between this and the first type of AF fields. They are two different things and I'm pretty sure this was done by SW developers who didn't want to extend the functionality of the standard AF at the time Oly implemented the first touch AF features but simply adding a second one, which is much easier to develop than providing a slick integrated menu for everything. Even worse, this mode will be lost on power on!

There are many other examples like this where all I can say is: WTF?!

And of course, with experience you can learn to live with all these things and it might become even normal for you, but I prefer not to have such a learning curve, just because somebody thought it was not required to simplify things for the user but simply pack in all the features and let the user get along with it (if he can).

I think it's time for a redesign of the Olympus menu!
--
Thomas
 
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Ironically, I'm not as confident with my GX7's interface as my Olympus cameras' interfaces. It's purely down to how comfortable my own brain is with the two approaches, I think. It's not them, it's me!
I don't think this generalization is valid.

There are consumer electronics or computer programs/software that are easy to use, because everything seems logically and works as one would expect. This is not the case with the Oly menu system. One example is setting the size of the focus box:

On Panasonic (e.g. GH4), you can either go to the AF menu (dedicated button) and follow the on-screen instructions (pressing the down arrow) to get to the AF box size menu and resize using the control wheel or just tapping on the screen and see the same menu to move/resize the same AF box. There is no question mark in my mind when following this, it's a plain simple procedure.

On the E-M5II (or any other Olympus), I would also (following simple logic) go to the AF menu in the SCP, click on the Info button to change AF fields and ... that's it. I cannot change the size of the AF field here no matter what I do. All you can do is switch through the 4 different AF types. But you cannot modifiy or move the size of the AF box here in the actual AF menu.
The problem is that you imply that the Panasonic logic, to which you are used to, is the only logic one. To me the AF implementation of Olympus is more simple and logic. I don't like the numerous on screen options of Panasonic, awkward to choose an comprehend. What is easier just to activate the focus magnifyer (that is actually what you are talking about), by just tapping on the screen and change the size of the field with a simple gesture?
Uhm, no it's not Panasnoic logic. It's just normal logic to expect something that is named AF to be found in a so called AF menu. But unfortunately there's a split in the menu design, as I wrote below.

The tapping on the screen should lead to the same menus (see below) but it doesn't. They are two different things and the fact that you cannot even use the bigger (better?) AF fields as default after turning on the camera makes it even worse, as you have to press the buttons again everytime you turn on the camera.
To do this, Oly basically implemented a second AF menu (not accessible via the SCP), which can be accessed by touching the screen (if touch screen is enabled!). This will then bring up a totally different AF box which's size can now be changed, but not using the wheels but tapping on the on screen trackbar.

There is no relation between this and the first type of AF fields. They are two different things and I'm pretty sure this was done by SW developers who didn't want to extend the functionality of the standard AF at the time Oly implemented the first touch AF features but simply adding a second one, which is much easier to develop than providing a slick integrated menu for everything. Even worse, this mode will be lost on power on!

There are many other examples like this where all I can say is: WTF?!

And of course, with experience you can learn to live with all these things and it might become even normal for you, but I prefer not to have such a learning curve, just because somebody thought it was not required to simplify things for the user but simply pack in all the features and let the user get along with it (if he can).

I think it's time for a redesign of the Olympus menu!
--
Thomas
 
Thanks for posting. He likes the camera quite a bit. But not the menus! His only bleeped out swear was trying to change a setting. It took him ten minutes--and he's a professional photographer who's handled previous OMDs--to figure out how to change the ISO, cause their ain't no damn ISO button!
That is ridiculous. The SCP is enabled by default but he took 10 minutes to find the ISO setting and he has used Olympus cameras before. . That's a crock of ..... People actually believe this????
 
I don't think this generalization is valid.

There are consumer electronics or computer programs/software that are easy to use, because everything seems logically and works as one would expect. This is not the case with the Oly menu system. One example is setting the size of the focus box:

On Panasonic (e.g. GH4), you can either go to the AF menu (dedicated button) and follow the on-screen instructions (pressing the down arrow) to get to the AF box size menu and resize using the control wheel or just tapping on the screen and see the same menu to move/resize the same AF box. There is no question mark in my mind when following this, it's a plain simple procedure.

On the E-M5II (or any other Olympus), I would also (following simple logic) go to the AF menu in the SCP, click on the Info button to change AF fields and ... that's it. I cannot change the size of the AF field here no matter what I do. All you can do is switch through the 4 different AF types. But you cannot modifiy or move the size of the AF box here in the actual AF menu.
The problem is that you imply that the Panasonic logic, to which you are used to, is the only logic one. To me the AF implementation of Olympus is more simple and logic. I don't like the numerous on screen options of Panasonic, awkward to choose an comprehend. What is easier just to activate the focus magnifyer (that is actually what you are talking about), by just tapping on the screen and change the size of the field with a simple gesture?
Uhm, no it's not Panasnoic logic. It's just normal logic to expect something that is named AF to be found in a so called AF menu. But unfortunately there's a split in the menu design, as I wrote below.

The tapping on the screen should lead to the same menus (see below) but it doesn't. They are two different things and the fact that you cannot even use the bigger (better?) AF fields as default after turning on the camera makes it even worse, as you have to press the buttons again everytime you turn on the camera.
To do this, Oly basically implemented a second AF menu (not accessible via the SCP), which can be accessed by touching the screen (if touch screen is enabled!). This will then bring up a totally different AF box which's size can now be changed, but not using the wheels but tapping on the on screen trackbar.

There is no relation between this and the first type of AF fields. They are two different things and I'm pretty sure this was done by SW developers who didn't want to extend the functionality of the standard AF at the time Oly implemented the first touch AF features but simply adding a second one, which is much easier to develop than providing a slick integrated menu for everything. Even worse, this mode will be lost on power on!

There are many other examples like this where all I can say is: WTF?!

And of course, with experience you can learn to live with all these things and it might become even normal for you, but I prefer not to have such a learning curve, just because somebody thought it was not required to simplify things for the user but simply pack in all the features and let the user get along with it (if he can).

I think it's time for a redesign of the Olympus menu!
This makes it look more difficult than it is, really. The touchscreen vertical slider method which results in a non-permanent, resizeable green AF box, is an evolution of the "zoom frame AF" method which Olympuses prior to the E-PL5 had as the only method to get a smaller centre AF target. Prior to touchscreens, it was only done with buttons, and you can still choose to do it this way on the touchscreen cameras (and even this was impossible on the original E-P1 and slightly updated E-P2). You can use Zoom Frame AF either as a small target (sized to one of several choices), or to actually zoom into the area covered by the AF target as well, and switch between these choices on the fly.

From the E-PL5 (and E-PM2) onwards, a small AF target option also became available, and that is permanently retained until you decide to change it. That's the one you can access with the left button on the multicontroller and then the Info key, giving you the choice of All Targets, Single Target, Group Target and Small Target. You can access the choices either by pressing the left multicontroller key, or via the icon on the SCP, and then using the Info key to make them available for selection in the button-press method, or just by twirling a dial with the SCP. Whilst the choices are displayed, you can also move the Group position (a smaller multi-target selection) around or move the single points of either size to your preferred positon. You can also assign your favourite selection to be the Home Position AF, and have it instantly recalled on pressing an Fn button if you want, but the selection you have made by this paragraph's method is retained until you change it anyway.
 

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