M5 MKII who designed this?

[Pedagydusz]

IIt seems that I have a photographic experience somewhat similar to yours, but I have been dealing with Olympus cameras for sometime, and learned to like them - a lot. I confess that I do, now and again, get furious with them for some obscure way of doing things (thanks to Guy Parsons, my E-PL5 learning went relatively smooth!).

But I disagree in what respects the 7D. I also use one, and yes, it yes feature laden, but it has loads of hardware buttons! I just counted 15 (fifteen!!!) buttons (not trying hard, just a quick look!) some with double functions, so most things are very easily done. Of course, that is due to the size - it would be practically impossible to get that many buttons on a MFT camera.

 

[Jorginho]

Sorry, but my Canon 7D was just as complicated, if not more so, but figuring out the basic shooting parameters took minutes, not hours and days. And same for the GX7, which is only marginally less complicated.

Same here. All have their peculiarities. only EPl5 made me read the booklet time and time again for rather basic features. D800e is not an easy cam, not simple. GH4 is not a simle cam. Gh2 was neither. Etc etc. Just fully agree with your experience.

Almost a Deja Vu here. had the same arguments with programmers who needed to programm an internetsite (well, several). and they reallythought they could design it too. They could not. it was logical to them, but not to the users. I think quite a fewwho like the Oly system resemble those programmers on this point. Also their lacking empathy is a striking resemblance.. to my mind.

 

[Helen]

Sorry, but my Canon 7D was just as complicated, if not more so, but figuring out the basic shooting parameters took minutes, not hours and days. And same for the GX7, which is only marginally less complicated.

Same here. All have their peculiarities. only EPl5 made me read the booklet time and time again for rather basic features. D800e is not an easy cam, not simple. GH4 is not a simle cam. Gh2 was neither. Etc etc. Just fully agree with your experience.
Almost a Deja Vu here. had the same arguments with programmers who needed to programm an internetsite (well, several). and they reallythought they could design it too. They could not. it was logical to them, but not to the users. I think quite a fewwho like the Oly system resemble those programmers on this point. Also their lacking empathy is a striking resemblance.. to my mind.

Hopefully you didn't mean me there. I do like the Olympus system, but was trying to offer what I hoped might be helpful wrinkles I'd spotted, which might make it less painful for those who find it awkward, and also pointed out that it's probably more down to my mindset that I get on better with the Olympus interface than the Panasonic one, and nobody else's fault. I always try to see both sides...

 

[Nemo0815]

Ironically, I'm not as confident with my GX7's interface as my Olympus cameras' interfaces. It's purely down to how comfortable my own brain is with the two approaches, I think. It's not them, it's me!

I don't think this generalization is valid.

There are consumer electronics or computer programs/software that are easy to use, because everything seems logically and works as one would expect. This is not the case with the Oly menu system. One example is setting the size of the focus box:

On Panasonic (e.g. GH4), you can either go to the AF menu (dedicated button) and follow the on-screen instructions (pressing the down arrow) to get to the AF box size menu and resize using the control wheel or just tapping on the screen and see the same menu to move/resize the same AF box. There is no question mark in my mind when following this, it's a plain simple procedure.

On the E-M5II (or any other Olympus), I would also (following simple logic) go to the AF menu in the SCP, click on the Info button to change AF fields and ... that's it. I cannot change the size of the AF field here no matter what I do. All you can do is switch through the 4 different AF types. But you cannot modifiy or move the size of the AF box here in the actual AF menu.

To do this, Oly basically implemented a second AF menu (not accessible via the SCP), which can be accessed by touching the screen (if touch screen is enabled!). This will then bring up a totally different AF box which's size can now be changed, but not using the wheels but tapping on the on screen trackbar.

There is no relation between this and the first type of AF fields. They are two different things and I'm pretty sure this was done by SW developers who didn't want to extend the functionality of the standard AF at the time Oly implemented the first touch AF features but simply adding a second one, which is much easier to develop than providing a slick integrated menu for everything. Even worse, this mode will be lost on power on!

There are many other examples like this where all I can say is: WTF?!

And of course, with experience you can learn to live with all these things and it might become even normal for you, but I prefer not to have such a learning curve, just because somebody thought it was not required to simplify things for the user but simply pack in all the features and let the user get along with it (if he can).

I think it's time for a redesign of the Olympus menu!

 

[icexe]

I often joke that there should be an official framed certificate sent to everyone who successfully masters the Olympus menu system.

 

[Jorginho]

I go to the touchscreen....press iso and then......i need the buttons to vhange the settings? This via the scp...?????

Some i think agree when they say he or she could just ask this forum for advice....if that is what it tankes it says a lot.

 

[gary0319]

Don't have an E-M5II but have a pretty new E-M10 (also have a GX7) and I'm with Helen. I like the Olympus menu scheme a lot better.

For me auto focus selection is pretty easy. With the AF area selected on the SCP, 2 quick "OK" punches gets me to the AF position sect scree and 1 "info" punch lets me toggle through the AF size/group selections. Maybe I'm not in the right place to get more selections, but this works pretty good for me.

Now don't get me started on that damn GX7 WiFi button right where my hand sits, not to mention all the blue pics from inadvertently hitting the WB button............I had to disable them all, shesh!

There is no right or wrong, just different. If it bugs the devil out of you, sell the camera and buy one that doesn't, life is too short to wear a suit that doesn't fit.

 

[Sabatia]

From Thomas Pildelski's blog: Photographs, Photography and Photographers

Part II of his review: http://pindelski.org/Photography/2015/03/03/olympus-om-d-e-m5-mark-ii-part-ii/

First line: "I am quickly learning that the only solution for the truly miserable menu design in the E-M5 Mark II is to procure a baseball bat and go in search of the committee which designed this execrable excrescence."

Further along, after several hours with the camera and manual, but after mistakenly pushing a button, he writes: "I have not encountered a more poorly, cynically designed, inept and uncaring menu system in any of the dozens of digital cameras I have used and frankly, at my age, my time is simply too valuable to waste it on this sort of nonsense. Olympus either needs to recess these buttons or make a toggle in firmware to disable them once set – otherwise their users will develop suicidal tendencies after having to dive into the menu system yet again."

Pildelski ends up sending it back to B&H. I have thought of doing the same, but there are a couple of features that will really help me, so I have now finished reading the entire manual. Not every word, mind you, but just about. "Insanely frustrating" sums it up.

 

[peppermonkey]

Sorry, but my Canon 7D was just as complicated, if not more so, but figuring out the basic shooting parameters took minutes, not hours and days. And same for the GX7, which is only marginally less complicated.

Same here. All have their peculiarities. only EPl5 made me read the booklet time and time again for rather basic features. D800e is not an easy cam, not simple. GH4 is not a simle cam. Gh2 was neither. Etc etc. Just fully agree with your experience.
Almost a Deja Vu here. had the same arguments with programmers who needed to programm an internetsite (well, several). and they reallythought they could design it too. They could not. it was logical to them, but not to the users. I think quite a fewwho like the Oly system resemble those programmers on this point. Also their lacking empathy is a striking resemblance.. to my mind.

As a software developer I can attest that most programmers just do not have a handle on ease of use. Our brains as developers are wired differently from the grand majority and as such what we may consider as efficient and user friendly just does not jive with the general public. Number of times I have seen jaw dropping dumb designs from people who really spent time and effort into making something user friendly is astonishing. I generally consider myself one of the rare types that have a better handle on user friendly design, but I'm not an expert yet if I got a $1 for every time I banged my head against the wall from encountering stupid designs I would be rich.

This Oly menu design discussions has the same past flavours of the same argument that went on for ages between Linux and Windows (or Windows and Apple) fan bases. Generally speaking, Linux was incredibly capable. Too many features to count. Can be customized to the nth degree. But was user unfriendly to a large degree. Normal average Joe's just couldn't get a handle on it. Windows (or Apple) was the opposite. Very capable but not nearly as customizable as Linux but was way more user friendly. Oly menu system is not nearly as crazy as Linux is/was but the same types of arguments/problems exists. Mind you, I'm a Linux user and got along pretty well. Same with Oly menu system. But I do see where the average Joe can/will have problems.

 

[finemom]

I normally have touchscreen turned off, too many problems with it. On panny I was always moving the focus point by mistake. My favorite camera was the Oly E1, if it wasn't to big for me to hold steady I think I would still be using it! That camera had a small control screen on the top and on the back, if I remember correctly. Controls were so simple, hardly any menu diving. Awful high ISO though. Haven't returned the Oly yet, but my return window is closing. Maybe I'll play with again tomorrow and give it another go.

 

[Tony8232]

A couple of pages of plain well written instructions on the most common customizations at the beginning of the manual would go a long way in making their cameras easier to set up. For example turning on the SCP panel and why you would want to. My sets etc.. The ability to store the settings to a memory card for retrieval and installation would be welcome. They really don't gave to make radical changes to the menu system. They just need a simplified user guide addendum to the main manual.

 

[Englishman in France]

Well written. It's as if an apple engineer designs their hardware and a Microsoft engineer designs their software.

 

[kaphinga]

A couple of pages of plain well written instructions on the most common customizations at the beginning of the manual would go a long way in making their cameras easier to set up. For example turning on the SCP panel and why you would want to. My sets etc.. The ability to store the settings to a memory card for retrieval and installation would be welcome. They really don't gave to make radical changes to the menu system. They just need a simplified user guide addendum to the main manual.

I totally agree! Well said!

 

[Jorginho]

Well written. It's as if an apple engineer designs their hardware and a Microsoft engineer designs their software.

A linux developper he thinks it is great because he put everything he could in it! Isn't that great? No? Well you must bestupid!!!!

 

[guido1953]

WOW !! What a concept. Reading the manual. Sure glad I was sitting down when I read this.

Best Regards,

Guido

 

[Paul Boddie]

Well written. It's as if an apple engineer designs their hardware and a Microsoft engineer designs their software.

A linux developper he thinks it is great because he put everything he could in it! Isn't that great? No? Well you must bestupid!!!!

Steady on!

I think there are cases where developers (for whatever system) actually manage reasonably well, and then the usability "experts" (I use the quotes deliberately here because such people are often self-appointed) come along and tell everyone that only they know about "design" (again, the quotes). That's when you end up with the "OK" and "Cancel" button-switching fiasco that had everyone suddenly clicking the wrong one until they either got used to it, found out how to switch it back, or just started using something else instead. Sound familiar? ;-)

With that Apple and Microsoft remark, I was actually reminded of that old joke about different nationalities in heaven and hell. Maybe you remember it, too? It might help lighten the mood a little.

 

[Jorginho]

Kai hates the Oly menusystem too....

 

[Sabatia]

Thanks for posting. He likes the camera quite a bit. But not the menus! His only bleeped out swear was trying to change a setting. It took him ten minutes--and he's a professional photographer who's handled previous OMDs--to figure out how to change the ISO, cause their ain't no damn ISO button!

 

[Tony8232]

Thanks for posting. He likes the camera quite a bit. But not the menus! His only bleeped out swear was trying to change a setting. It took him ten minutes--and he's a professional photographer who's handled previous OMDs--to figure out how to change the ISO, cause their ain't no damn ISO button!

That is ridiculous. The SCP is enabled by default but he took 10 minutes to find the ISO setting and he has used Olympus cameras before. . That's a crock of ..... People actually believe this????

 

[Airmel]

His only bleeped out swear was trying to change a setting. It took him ten minutes--and he's a professional photographer who's handled previous OMDs--to figure out how to change the ISO, cause their ain't no damn ISO button!

I'm calling BS on this one. A professional photographer who has handled previous OM-D's wouldn't take ten minutes to find the ISO control.