Processed PSD files noticably unsharp compared to RAW file

PikkieChick

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Hi there - I am using CS6 shoot with a Canon 5D3. Can anyone tell me what I might be doing wrong, or if I need to tweak some settings but my PSD files seem quite unsharp in comparison to the CR2 file after processing, even the tack sharp CR2 files (the jpeg is understandably not as sharp after compression but the PSD file looks more like the jpeg !).

I use windows photo viewer to flick through the images quickly as I find bit of a lag with CS6, but have also viewed the 3 different files in other viewers and I can still see the issue. I have taken into consideration the noise reduction settings etc and always save the jpeg at the highest setting. Should there be such a difference ?

Link to dropbox with the PSD, JPEG and RAW file:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rw2r30i154thp02/AACfuRKzwDs8pYGmPi2J7yE0a?dl=0
 
I agree with Richard regarding JPEGS and Sailor Blue regarding using Bridge.

Your PSD's on Dropbox do not look as sharp as your Raw files, but I think that's because of the photo viewer you captured them from. But I still don't understand why there would be a difference when viewing in PS.

Try this. Select a RAW file you haven't processed yet, one with a fair amount of detail (like one of your architectural images). Open it in ACR. Don't make any adjustments. Open it in PS. Save it as a PSD. Then open the same RAW file in ACR with no adjustments, then in PS. Leave it as a CR2 file. Do you see any differences? If so, upload the RAW file and the PSD file to Dropbox so we can have a look.
No differences between the CR2 file and PSD file at all checking them in PS at 100%.

I did though open the RAW, CR2 and JPEG files in the faststone photo viewer and once again the JPEG and PSD look nearly identical. The CR2 is much sharper. Eeek I had them lined up side by side and could easily see the difference. What am I doing wrong !
You're not doing anything wrong -- FastStone is probably just applying a greater degree of default sharpening to the RAW file than ACR . If the CR2 file and PSD files look the same in PS at 100% then you're all set.
UNLESS FastStone is merely extracting and displaying an embedded preview from the Raw file, and not making its own conversion and processing of the picture (this is a common method used by image browsers, as well as by the camera itself).

Such a preview will reflect the results of in-camera JPG settings e.g. sharpening and contrastiness.

Also depending on the JPG settings in the camera, an embedded preview may be made at a reduced resolution (fewer megapixels). That too can affect the perception of sharpness, on screen, in practice.
If I then switch FastStone to RAW mode (in the Settings menu or by pressing A when viewing an image in the default embedded JPEG mode), then because I am now viewing sensor data, I loose the sharpness. I can use FastStone's own Sharpness adjust (under the Colors menu) to adjust the Sharpness back (and up higher) to make it quite a bit more sharp than the JPEG or PSD which are ACR processed.

So, basically, having investigated, we are seeing what you say - i.e. this is a not-very sharply processed PSD (and JPEG save from that), being compared in file-viewer application(s) to an in-camera embedded JPEG in a .CR2 which has 3 (out of a scale of 7) Sharpness applied by the camera.

[ It's then another discussion and will slightly affect things when viewed side-by-side in non color-managed applications, but the PSD and JPEG saved from that are in aRGB, but the embedded JPEG in the CR2 is as per the camera's setting which was sRGB. ]
 
Even easier is to use Bridge to view the RAW and PSD/TIFF images side by side or flip back and forth between them.

I recommend that the OP use the free FastStone Image Viewer instead of Widows Viewer since you can set FastStone to be color space aware. To set FastStone to be color aware go to Settings>Settings>CMS and check the Enable Color Management System box.

FastStone Image Viewer - Powerful and Intuitive Photo Viewer, Editor and Batch Converter

If you shoot only JPGs then I recommend you use the Photoshop Edit>Color Settings>Working Space command and select sRGB so that your saved JPGs will be compatible with the web and smart devices.

If you only shoot RAW then select ProPhoto RGB but be sure to check all the boxes in the Color Management Policies area to avoid color space mismatches when importing images without an embedded color space or with any other embedded color space.



Note that using the aRGB or ProPhoto color working space in Photoshop will cause a problem if you try to save your images as JPGs using just the File>Save As>JPEG command - it will embed the working color space in the image file, not sRGB.This will cause the image colors to display incorrectly.

To avoid this color space mismatch problem use the Edit>Convert to Profile>Destination Space>sRGB command before saving the file as a JPG using the File>Save As>JPEG command.

Sailor Blue

Ive checked out the Faststone image viewer, very nice. like the ability to compare 3-4 images side by side at 100% and other various sizes.

Ive looked at Bridge again and finding it a bit fiddly trying to flick between a CR2, PSD, jpeg file at 100% for comparisons (I guess its just learning the shortcut buttons etc). I keep on accidentally clicking on the image and opening it up by mistake !

As for my images - I always shoot RAW only, but my husband shoots jpegs. Im also processing a few older images from a few years back they are only jpegs. With this being the case, would changing all my settings to ProPhoto be to painful considering what I have said above. Would I have to change it back each time depending on whether Im working on a RAW or JPEG ?

I have changed my ACR to sRGB to start with ? Good option ?
You don't have to change the Photoshop Color Working Space back and forth if you have the three Profile boxes checked as in the above image. When there is an image with a different color space, or no color space, embedded in the file you will be asked if you want to work on the file in the embedded color space or convert the file to the working color space.

If you don't check the Profile Mismatches: Ask When Opening box then with the setup shown above a JPG with the embedded sRGB color space would automatically open in the sRGB color space. I keep the box checked just because I'm a bit anal about wanting to control things myself.

I keep the working color space of ACR and Photoshop set to 16-bits and ProPhoto RGB as you see above for Photoshop and below for ACR.



Whenever I bring in a JPG I shot with one of my point and shoot camera or with my phone I tell Photoshop to work in the embedded sRGB color space. Frequently there isn't any embedded color space on a JPG from the web so I tell Photoshop to use the sRGB color space.

Sailor Blue - I just going thru this process now and having a play around. I chose a JPEG to open up and yep it asked me about the embedded Profile Mismatch - so when this is asked, I choose 'Convert documents colors to the working space' which is now sRGB rather than the option to 'Use the embedded profile (instead of the working space').
I then also have to follow the following below even if the image started out as a jpeg :

'Note that using the aRGB or ProPhoto color working space in Photoshop will cause a problem if you try to save your images as JPGs using just the File>Save As>JPEG command - it will embed the working color space in the image file, not sRGB.This will cause the image colors to display incorrectly.

To avoid this color space mismatch problem use the Edit>Convert to Profile>Destination Space>sRGB command before saving the file as a JPG using the File>Save As>JPEG command.'
 
Even easier is to use Bridge to view the RAW and PSD/TIFF images side by side or flip back and forth between them.

I recommend that the OP use the free FastStone Image Viewer instead of Widows Viewer since you can set FastStone to be color space aware. To set FastStone to be color aware go to Settings>Settings>CMS and check the Enable Color Management System box.

FastStone Image Viewer - Powerful and Intuitive Photo Viewer, Editor and Batch Converter

If you shoot only JPGs then I recommend you use the Photoshop Edit>Color Settings>Working Space command and select sRGB so that your saved JPGs will be compatible with the web and smart devices.

If you only shoot RAW then select ProPhoto RGB but be sure to check all the boxes in the Color Management Policies area to avoid color space mismatches when importing images without an embedded color space or with any other embedded color space.



Note that using the aRGB or ProPhoto color working space in Photoshop will cause a problem if you try to save your images as JPGs using just the File>Save As>JPEG command - it will embed the working color space in the image file, not sRGB.This will cause the image colors to display incorrectly.

To avoid this color space mismatch problem use the Edit>Convert to Profile>Destination Space>sRGB command before saving the file as a JPG using the File>Save As>JPEG command.

Sailor Blue

Ive checked out the Faststone image viewer, very nice. like the ability to compare 3-4 images side by side at 100% and other various sizes.

Ive looked at Bridge again and finding it a bit fiddly trying to flick between a CR2, PSD, jpeg file at 100% for comparisons (I guess its just learning the shortcut buttons etc). I keep on accidentally clicking on the image and opening it up by mistake !

As for my images - I always shoot RAW only, but my husband shoots jpegs. Im also processing a few older images from a few years back they are only jpegs. With this being the case, would changing all my settings to ProPhoto be to painful considering what I have said above. Would I have to change it back each time depending on whether Im working on a RAW or JPEG ?

I have changed my ACR to sRGB to start with ? Good option ?
You don't have to change the Photoshop Color Working Space back and forth if you have the three Profile boxes checked as in the above image. When there is an image with a different color space, or no color space, embedded in the file you will be asked if you want to work on the file in the embedded color space or convert the file to the working color space.

If you don't check the Profile Mismatches: Ask When Opening box then with the setup shown above a JPG with the embedded sRGB color space would automatically open in the sRGB color space. I keep the box checked just because I'm a bit anal about wanting to control things myself.

I keep the working color space of ACR and Photoshop set to 16-bits and ProPhoto RGB as you see above for Photoshop and below for ACR.



Whenever I bring in a JPG I shot with one of my point and shoot camera or with my phone I tell Photoshop to work in the embedded sRGB color space. Frequently there isn't any embedded color space on a JPG from the web so I tell Photoshop to use the sRGB color space.

Sailor Blue - I just going thru this process now and having a play around. I chose a JPEG to open up and yep it asked me about the embedded Profile Mismatch - so when this is asked, I choose 'Convert documents colors to the working space' which is now sRGB rather than the option to 'Use the embedded profile (instead of the working space').

I then also have to follow the following below even if the image started out as a jpeg :

'Note that using the aRGB or ProPhoto color working space in Photoshop will cause a problem if you try to save your images as JPGs using just the File>Save As>JPEG command - it will embed the working color space in the image file, not sRGB.This will cause the image colors to display incorrectly.

To avoid this color space mismatch problem use the Edit>Convert to Profile>Destination Space>sRGB command before saving the file as a JPG using the File>Save As>JPEG command.'
If the examples you have put to Dropbox are representative, your JPEGs that you have been working in, PSDs also, are saved in aRGB (Adobe RGB), so if you now have your CS6 working space set to sRGB, then you will get the warning on opening those files.

If your working space is now set to sRGB and that is how you intend to carry on, then I would advise allowing PS to convert the aRGB on opening into sRGB as it is prompting. Once you have done that, then you can just Save it now with the sRGB profile embedded. The next time you open, you won't get teh warning.

You only need do that conversion to sRGB once. So once you have converted an image on opening to your working sRGB space, then you do not need convert it again on saving.

If you change your working space to ProPhotoRGB or back to aRGB, then that is where you need be carfeul on the Save to thinking what profile you actually want to save in and embed. That is because most other people's file-viewers, browsers, mail-clients, etc., etc., cannot correctly handle other color-spaces like aRGB or especially ProPhotoRGB. They are also very unlikely to have calibrated and profiled their monitors. Hence, if you are sharing images with others, sRGB really is the only space to use for that.

Given the nature of the questions you are asking, you are obviously a beginner (and I mean that very respectfully, we all were at one time), so I would suggest you keep your PS working space and ACR's space set to sRGB. Keep the warnings on, and convert into sRGB on opening when prompted. Working in 16-bits sRGB is no problem, so I would advise 16-bits also. When you save as JEPG that will automatically make that saved JPEG version 8-bits. If you save as PSD or TIFF, it will stay in 16-bits. Working in 16-bits gives you less chance of banding when you work in highlights and shadows (and 16-bits is really essential in the wider color-spaces like PropPhotoRGB). Even though you are shooting RAW, keep the embedded JPEG also in sRGB (so set your camera to sRGB also).

So, my recommendation would be just work in sRGB until you are overall comfortable (maybe that's only a few months!), and only start to change to using other color-spaces once you have understood color-management (and have perhaps also started doing rich-color color-accurate printing, or bought a wide-gamut monitor which you will keep regularly calibrated and profiled). If you start to use Lightroom, then again you would reconsider, as LR only works in ProPhotoRGB. Reality though is you will very very rarely encounter colors in your images which are richer (more saturated) than those that can be expressed in sRGB.

I work in 16-bits ProPhotoRGB on a wide-gamut monitor, and I can only think of a handful of my 200k images where I can really enjoy super-rich colors beyond sRGB on my screen (or indeed for example with a red beyond aRGB). It does of course depend on your subjects, and if you were taking for example flower blooms or fall colors as your main subjects all the time, then a wide-gamut space and monitor (and printer inks/paper) is useful there to get that extra richness, but for "regular" everyday subjects, then it is not needed and sRGB is just fine.

--
Mark W.
http://500px.com/Mark_Wycherley
 
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Mark

Thankyou and I understand what you are saying. Will start slowly, learn and progress. So I will start with working in sRGB and go from there. One last question though. If I am taking this path I CAN IGNORE the below when saving cant I when I save and just use the normal File>Save As>JPEG:

Note that using the aRGB or ProPhoto color working space in Photoshop will cause a problem if you try to save your images as JPGs using just the File>Save As>JPEG command - it will embed the working color space in the image file, not sRGB.This will cause the image colors to display incorrectly.

To avoid this color space mismatch problem use the Edit>Convert to Profile>Destination Space>sRGB command before saving the file as a JPG using the File>Save As>JPEG command.'
 
Mark

Thankyou and I understand what you are saying. Will start slowly, learn and progress. So I will start with working in sRGB and go from there. One last question though. If I am taking this path I CAN IGNORE the below when saving cant I when I save and just use the normal File>Save As>JPEG:

Note that using the aRGB or ProPhoto color working space in Photoshop will cause a problem if you try to save your images as JPGs using just the File>Save As>JPEG command - it will embed the working color space in the image file, not sRGB.This will cause the image colors to display incorrectly.

To avoid this color space mismatch problem use the Edit>Convert to Profile>Destination Space>sRGB command before saving the file as a JPG using the File>Save As>JPEG command.'
If you have Photoshop's working color-space set to sRGB, and are allowing it to convert to that space on opening where needed, then you do not need do further conversion on saving JPEGs. Just make sure you tick to embed the sRGB profile to the JPEG file (in the Save menu). Embedding the profile means it (the sRGB profile) is there correctly already the next time you open the image in any application, and especially it is there when you send the files to someone else (or post to a web-page, etc.,).

--
Mark W.
http://500px.com/Mark_Wycherley
 
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Thanks Mark - yes I can see that option when I save, comes up as ICC profile: sRGB - yes ?

Im also having a play around with Bridge and becoming familiar with that as well.

Also when I open a RAW file in ACR do I have to change the workflow each time to sRGB 16bit as its still set on aRGB 8 bit ?

Sorry !
 
Thanks Mark - yes I can see that option when I save, comes up as ICC profile: sRGB - yes ?
Yes, sRGB is technically sRGB IEC61966-2.1, and that is expressed in an ICC (International Color Consortium) profile - which is actually a small set of data used by the application opening the image to produce RGB tone curves which are then applied to interpret the RGB pixel values in the associated image data.
Im also having a play around with Bridge and becoming familiar with that as well.
OK. You probably know more about it already than I do. I have Bridge (with CS5, CS6, and CC), but have always used Lightroom.
Also when I open a RAW file in ACR do I have to change the workflow each time to sRGB 16bit as its still set on aRGB 8 bit ?
I believe you change it only once then it will remember. Not 100% sure about that as I use Lightroom to do my main RAW development!!
 
There is no particular difficulty in having PS's working colourspace be different than that required for a particular output (such as sRGB). Different outputs may involve different colour management anyway. There is also no difficulty in working on documents from time to time, which happen to differ from the PS default working colourspace. Just so long as you are properly aware of the implications.

The "Save for Web" utility is an efficient and convenient way to produce JPG output from a working document, once configured in the way desired.

Among the advantages of using this instead of Save As are:
  • The opportunity to use named and saved setups for repeatability and consistency;
  • you see a good live preview of the result of your saving options;
  • you get a more detailed choice of save settings;
  • you can reduce pixel dimensions on the fly, without applying that to the working document;
  • you can convert to sRGB on the fly, without applying that to the working document;
  • it will convert to 8-bit on the fly as needed, if your working document is 16-bit.
This feature removes the need for (e.g.) web output to be a consideration, when deciding on the colourspace and bit depth you are going to use for editing generally.

Larger gamut headroom with 16-bit leaves more free scope for manipulating the image - just as the table that a dressmaker lays out the component pieces of a garment on, and the pieces of fabric themselves, should be larger than the finished garment itself.

Many images' hues will 'naturally' fit within sRGB, but it seems a shame to arbitrarily hobble those others which naturally exceed sRGB in their range of hues - especially where these extra hues would have been printable, if expressed in a suitably larger colourspace. In that case, the web output would need to simplify those hues to fit within sRGB, but other outputs might not do so.

I work from Raw into PS under one of two setups: for images that will require little or no further tonal or hue adjustment, AdobeRGB in 8 bit. For images that may require significant further tonal or hue adjustment, ProPhoto in 16 bit. Either way, the web output is converted from the working document on the fly, into sRGB (8-bit), using standardised settings. I happen do those steps in Lightroom, not in PS, but the workflow principles are essentially the same.
 

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