The real reason why Canon sells more...

Mike Salzlechner said:

Jono

AFAIK the E-100 is only 1.3MP not 1.7.

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Member said:

And of course to properly compare the speed we would have to
multiply the 1D's data by 2.98.

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Member said:

8fps * 2.98 = 23.84fps
21shot buffer in JPG mode = 62frames

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Thom Hogan said:

Tony Ku said:

Canon owns 80% of DSLR market now, according to Phil's article.

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Which article is this? And if Phil said that, he's very, very
wrong. At 30k units a month average over the entire year (Canon's
DSLR sales were much, much lower than that in January through
February, and only got to that level in May), they would have, at
best, approximately 60% of the expected DSLR market for 2003. At
the 300k unit volume for 2003 (Canon's number, remember) and the
current estimates of the DSLR market in 2003, Canon would have
between 50 and 54% of the DSLR market. But based upon the numbers
I've been able to track in the first half of 2003, Canon is well
below that share at the moment (indeed, below 50%).

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Thom Hogan said:

Thom Hogan said:

This doesn't used to be the case. In the 60's,70's and 80's, Nikon
pretty much dominated everyone.

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That seems to be rewriting history. Canon passed Nikon in market
share in the 80's by every measurement I've seen. The last big

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Thom Hogan said:

meters better than any other SLR I've ever seen, used, or handled.
But my point is this: Nikon was late to the autofocus game and had
a long dry spell in top-notch camera designs that appealed to pros.

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Thom Hogan said:

Thom Hogan said:

Goto the US patents office: http://www.uspto.gov/

Type in: Canon and Image Stabilization. And see how many entries
you have, dating all the way back to 1988/89, which ironically is
about the time when Canon starts to beat Nikon in sales.

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Actually, Nikon's JAPANESE patents for image stabilization date
back into the mid-80's. All patents don't get filed in the US, you
know.

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Thom Hogan said:

Thom Hogan said:

That's the reason. Image Stabilization. Anyone who doesn't think
so, go to a professional basketball/tennisball/etc game and see the
pros on teh floor, look at the color of their lenses. It's all
white color (i.e. Canon L lens, most with IS)

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Including a number of white Nikkors these days. Telephoto lenses
that are used out in the sun all day need to be light colored,
IMHO. Sure, ED glass can compensate for most heat related image
quality changes on long teles, but if you've ever had to handle a
hot black 500mm, you'll know what I'm talking about. White teles is
something Canon got quite right.

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Thom Hogan said:

As for your claims that Canons show up in more press hands than
Nikons, that was somewhat true right up to the introduction of the
D1, at which point everything switched again very quickly. These
days, on average, I see about the same number of Canon and Nikon at
press events. At some events, I see more Canons, at others I see
more Nikon. Also, note that both Canon and Nikon go out of their
way for certain events (the Olympics are notorious, but depending
upon what the marketing groups are doing, you can find yourself at
a sporting event like the Super Bowl or the NCAA championships and
find a wave of "extra" Brand X or Y because the company in question
has got a loaner pool going).

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Thom Hogan said:

Thom Hogan said:

Photojournalists in Iraq covering the Iraq war mostly used Canon
glass as well. I have no doubt it's because of IS.

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And I can state quite reliably that the CIA is using D1x's. Guess
you wouldn't normally see those, though?

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Thom Hogan said:

Thom Hogan said:

Now the digital age: One reason why Canon is faster to market with
digital cameras is because tehy have an internal fab for their
sensors.

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Absolute nonsense. How is having a FAB make you faster to market?
There are some who say that it is faster to market to "rent" a fab.
And guess who makes those steppers that are in the fab? (Hint: it's
the biggest part of Nikon's business.) And if having a fab was so
important, why did Canon get scooped by the original D1? Heck, I
know of some companies that have fabs who haven't yet come to
market with their own chip DSLR.

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Jono Slack said:

Mike Salzlechner said:

Jono

AFAIK the E-100 is only 1.3MP not 1.7.

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sorry about that - going back to the house to check was too much
effort?

Jono Slack said:

And of course to properly compare the speed we would have to
multiply the 1D's data by 2.98.

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why?

Jono Slack said:

8fps * 2.98 = 23.84fps
21shot buffer in JPG mode = 62frames

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This is strange logic - are you comparing their respective write
times, and if so, what does that amount to.

i wasn't for a minute suggesting that the E100 was 'better ' than
the 1d, just that from a frame per second point of view it was
faster.

I don't think you can get 23.84 fps out of a 1D can you? (correct
me if I'm wrong).

kind regards
jono slack

http://www.slack.co.uk

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Terry Cioni said:

Tom@JHU said:

Jonathan F. said:

So what? Go to any red carpet event in Hollywood and all you see
are Nikon D1Xs. Doesn't mean squat.

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Really? Do you have a picture to prove this? We showed you a
picture of a sea of white lenses (ok a few black ones in there too)
at a sporting event. I would be interested to know that Wall
Street and Hollywood shoots pre-dominantly Nikon, as you claim.

Member said:

All your base belong to us.

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base as in...??? anti-acid? baseball diamond? military staging points?

Member said:

Tony Ku said:

I read the other comments about how Canon is selling to cheap
consumers, blah blah blah, and pointed out Canon's intellectual
property base, but that's what you get here and get called
"trolling".

I have nothing against Nikon glass, in fact, it is amongst the best
in the world, especially at the wide angle (and especially the
older manual focus ones). However, I am just pointing out why and
HOW Nikon LOST their market share to Canon in the 1990's! Image
Stabilization is the key. Since Canon owns the most basic I.S.
patents, other companie will either have to pay royalties OR have
to go around the patents (which is hard to do).

Then Nikon goes into denial mode for a while until they finally get
it and came out with the 100-400 VR lens, and now the 70-200 VR
AFS. Is it too late? Who knows, but they have lost the entire
market to Canon already at the moment. Similar to Olympus, they're
scrambling for a response. But at least Nikon has a loyal user
base, they have a chance.....

Here's ONE ad that shows how sport photogs are using L glass:
http://www.usa.canon.com/eflenses/pdf/magad_june2003.pdf

My opinion: the white lenses is the best advertisement move Canon
has done with their top of the line lenses.

Tony Ku said:

Canon currently sells about 30,000 10D's, PER MONTH. Which means
these useres will buy Canon glass, locking them in as Canonians.

Canon owns 80% of DSLR market now, according to Phil's article.

This doesn't used to be the case. In the 60's,70's and 80's, Nikon
pretty much dominated everyone. But in the 90's things start to
change.

Goto the US patents office: http://www.uspto.gov/

Type in: Canon and Image Stabilization. And see how many entries
you have, dating all the way back to 1988/89, which ironically is
about the time when Canon starts to beat Nikon in sales.

That's the reason. Image Stabilization. Anyone who doesn't think
so, go to a professional basketball/tennisball/etc game and see the
pros on teh floor, look at the color of their lenses. It's all
white color (i.e. Canon L lens, most with IS)

Photojournalists in Iraq covering the Iraq war mostly used Canon
glass as well. I have no doubt it's because of IS.

Now the digital age: One reason why Canon is faster to market with
digital cameras is because tehy have an internal fab for their
sensors. They don't rely on Kodak, or other vendors.

Click to expand...

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inhousephoto inc. digital • photography • media
http://www.inhousephoto.com

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Tony Ku said:

From Phil's E-1 news (scroll down to the end about Canon).

Olympus Debut to Heat Up Digital SLR Camera Competition
June 25, 2003 (TOKYO) -- With Olympus Optical Co Ltd announcing on
June 24 its full-scale entry into digital SLR (single-lens reflex)
cameras around early October, the race among camera manufacturers
in the field has begun in earnest.

Pentax Corp is also expected to enter the market around late
August. Companies already having a head start in digital SLR
cameras, such as Canon Inc and Nikon Corp, are enjoying brisk
sales. Global shipments are expected to increase 140-300% this year
to between 600,000 and 1 million units, raising the possibility
that digital SLR cameras will surpass SLR cameras using film as
early as next year.

Olympus' E-1 digital camera employs a CCD (charge-coupled device)
of about 5 million pixels for its image sensor, giving it a
resolution that is two to three times better then that of compact
digital cameras.

Including standard zoom lenses, the E-1 will be priced below
300,000 yen, which is on the lower end of prices for digital SLR
cameras. Olympus plans to unveil the E-1 around early October and
aim for sales totaling 90,000 units this fiscal year alone.

Japanese manufacturers command a large share of the global market
for SLR cameras with interchangeable lenses. While most of these
cameras still use film, demand for digital SLR cameras is growing
at an explosive pace given the widespread use of compact digital
cameras.

Global shipments of digital SLR are estimated to have reached
250,000 units in 2002, according to estimates from different
Japanese camera manufacturers.

While some in the industry believe that shipments this year could
surpass 600,000 units, "there is a good possibility that the figure
will top 1 million units," according to a senior executive at
Olympus.

Canon, which controls about 80% of the global market, is enjoying
brisk sales of a model priced around 200,000 yen that debuted in
March. Shipments are said to total over 30,000 units a month, with
production unable to keep up, a Canon official says. Its high-end
model priced at 950,000 yen continues to ship at a pace of nearly
2,000 units a month.

Interchangeable-lens-type digital SLR cameras are now sold by
Canon, Nikon, Kyocera Corp, Fuji Photo Film Co Ltd, Sigma Corp and
Eastman Kodak Co of the United States.

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Rachael said:

Tony Ku said:

Canon, which controls about 80% of the global market, is enjoying
brisk sales of a model priced around 200,000 yen that debuted in
March. Shipments are said to total over 30,000 units a month, with
production unable to keep up, a Canon official says. Its high-end
model priced at 950,000 yen continues to ship at a pace of nearly
2,000 units a month.

Interchangeable-lens-type digital SLR cameras are now sold by
Canon, Nikon, Kyocera Corp, Fuji Photo Film Co Ltd, Sigma Corp and
Eastman Kodak Co of the United States.

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If you do your maths, if it does sells at 30,000 per month yet
ships at 2000 per month, what happens to the remaining 28,000?

I reckon these are Nikon Users.....

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Rachael said:

I bet, it is close to 30,000 per year if you do the maths at 2000
per month.

That's like 12 X 2000 which gives around 24,000, still there is a
Surplus of 6000 users for Nikon Systems...

Clueless? or have you failed elementary maths like the Canon
Spokesman?

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Rachael said:

and by the way, Not everyone is as "rich" as you are to be able to
afford the $8000 camera.

We are looking at FF $2000+ Camera. If Canon does throw one in at
that price.....well, if they could, the entire market is theirs....

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Rachael said:

Clueless? or have you failed elementary maths like the Canon
Spokesman?

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Jono Slack said:

Hi Peter

backing up Tony doesn not add credibility to your cause I'm afraid.

kind regards
jono slack

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Tony Ku said:

Rachael said:

Tony Ku said:

Canon, which controls about 80% of the global market, is enjoying
brisk sales of a model priced around 200,000 yen that debuted in
March. Shipments are said to total over 30,000 units a month, with
production unable to keep up, a Canon official says. Its high-end
model priced at 950,000 yen continues to ship at a pace of nearly
2,000 units a month.

Interchangeable-lens-type digital SLR cameras are now sold by
Canon, Nikon, Kyocera Corp, Fuji Photo Film Co Ltd, Sigma Corp and
Eastman Kodak Co of the United States.

Click to expand...

If you do your maths, if it does sells at 30,000 per month yet
ships at 2000 per month, what happens to the remaining 28,000?

I reckon these are Nikon Users.....

Click to expand...

Did you read the article?

It said the LOW END model (Canon 10D), sells at 30,000 per month,
the high end model, which is 1Ds, sells for 2000 per month. It's
30,000 for 10D (low end model as it has stated) ONLY.

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Tony Ku said:

Where?

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Tony Ku said:

Terry Cioni said:

Tom@JHU said:

Jonathan F. said:

So what? Go to any red carpet event in Hollywood and all you see
are Nikon D1Xs. Doesn't mean squat.

Click to expand...

Really? Do you have a picture to prove this? We showed you a
picture of a sea of white lenses (ok a few black ones in there too)
at a sporting event. I would be interested to know that Wall
Street and Hollywood shoots pre-dominantly Nikon, as you claim.

Tony Ku said:

All your base belong to us.

Click to expand...

base as in...??? anti-acid? baseball diamond? military staging points?

Tony Ku said:

Tony Ku said:

I read the other comments about how Canon is selling to cheap
consumers, blah blah blah, and pointed out Canon's intellectual
property base, but that's what you get here and get called
"trolling".

I have nothing against Nikon glass, in fact, it is amongst the best
in the world, especially at the wide angle (and especially the
older manual focus ones). However, I am just pointing out why and
HOW Nikon LOST their market share to Canon in the 1990's! Image
Stabilization is the key. Since Canon owns the most basic I.S.
patents, other companie will either have to pay royalties OR have
to go around the patents (which is hard to do).

Then Nikon goes into denial mode for a while until they finally get
it and came out with the 100-400 VR lens, and now the 70-200 VR
AFS. Is it too late? Who knows, but they have lost the entire
market to Canon already at the moment. Similar to Olympus, they're
scrambling for a response. But at least Nikon has a loyal user
base, they have a chance.....

Here's ONE ad that shows how sport photogs are using L glass:
http://www.usa.canon.com/eflenses/pdf/magad_june2003.pdf

My opinion: the white lenses is the best advertisement move Canon
has done with their top of the line lenses.

Tony Ku said:

Canon currently sells about 30,000 10D's, PER MONTH. Which means
these useres will buy Canon glass, locking them in as Canonians.

Canon owns 80% of DSLR market now, according to Phil's article.

This doesn't used to be the case. In the 60's,70's and 80's, Nikon
pretty much dominated everyone. But in the 90's things start to
change.

Goto the US patents office: http://www.uspto.gov/

Type in: Canon and Image Stabilization. And see how many entries
you have, dating all the way back to 1988/89, which ironically is
about the time when Canon starts to beat Nikon in sales.

That's the reason. Image Stabilization. Anyone who doesn't think
so, go to a professional basketball/tennisball/etc game and see the
pros on teh floor, look at the color of their lenses. It's all
white color (i.e. Canon L lens, most with IS)

Photojournalists in Iraq covering the Iraq war mostly used Canon
glass as well. I have no doubt it's because of IS.

Now the digital age: One reason why Canon is faster to market with
digital cameras is because tehy have an internal fab for their
sensors. They don't rely on Kodak, or other vendors.

Click to expand...

--
Gallery: http://violin.deviantart.com/gallery

Click to expand...

--
---------------------------------------------------



I get headaches when I photograph things.

inhousephoto inc. digital • photography • media
http://www.inhousephoto.com

Click to expand...

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Gallery: http://violin.deviantart.com/gallery

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Terry Cioni said:

Tony Ku said:

Where?

Click to expand...

In the camera store...last time I checked. Check the Nikon
website...you can see pictures if you can't see them at your local
camera store. You have simply not done your homework on Nikon
white lenses...you must be embrassed!

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Yves P. said:

Useless thread ...
--
Yves P.

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