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B+H's dirty little secret: selling used goods as new

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rudiphoto said:
FWIW, it sems to me that you cannot have it both ways. You cannot
have a liberal return policy and expect the retailer to send
EVERYTHING back to Canon, even if it was just returned because the
original purchaser decided that it wasn't the camera or lens for
them! As long as the equipment is in pristine condition, I see no
problem with this, ESPECIALLY SINCE I AM ALSO COVERED BY THIS
LIBERAL RETURN POLICY!
Click to expand...
How about a little truth then? Like maybe they TELL the customer that he is getting a returned item and let them choose. Why be clandestine about it and hope that the customer doesn't care? I'd much prefer a company that is up front with me.

This is why I never shop at Fry's electronics (for those that know them). They do this all the time. I have taken home software to find it has already been registered and other stuff like that. Unacceptable to me.

Frankly, this is another reason why I am OK with paying a little more to the local shop. At least I can look them in the face and they know and value me as a customer. There is more to good value than just low price.

--
Bill in SOCAL
'Stuff' Listed in profile
 
Daniel Jackson said:
I don't but I know its new and isn't a return of someone elses
problem.
Click to expand...
Well, not necessarily. Shrinkwrap machines are cheap...
Daniel Jackson said:
Problem is a 800.00 or 1500.00 lens isnt a 35.00 sweater that you
may return because it doesn't fit, and you can pick the one you
want out of a stack. See the problem is the store is at the mercy
of the person returning the "soft" lens that he "doesn't like" so
it gets repackaged as new and now someone else has a "soft" lens.
Click to expand...
I agree... but the thing is you might just as easily have gotten that "soft" lens yourself in the first instance. And if you don't recognize it as a problem in one that's new, you're not going to recognize it in one that's been returned. So what? And if you do recognize it, as long as the store's willing to take it back, what difference does it make if somebody else recognized it too... especially if it means the store's not going to give you any hassle about returning it?
Daniel Jackson said:
Maybe the thing to do to stop renting as David put it is to have a
restocking fee unless the part is defective.
Click to expand...
That's why some stores do it that way. And I choose not to do business with them, because I don't want to be stuck with a restocking fee if I feel the legitimate (by my standards, of course) need to return something.

And you can choose to do business with them, but -- you still have no guarantee that they're not still repacking the "like new" returned stuff and selling it as new. But if it makes you feel better...
Daniel Jackson said:
I don't know the answer, Im just stating how --I-- feel about it.
Click to expand...
I understand. This isn't religion, or politics, or front focusing after all. ;-)

Nill
~~
http://www.toulme.net
 
SOCAL said:
rudiphoto said:
FWIW, it sems to me that you cannot have it both ways. You cannot
have a liberal return policy and expect the retailer to send
EVERYTHING back to Canon, even if it was just returned because the
original purchaser decided that it wasn't the camera or lens for
them! As long as the equipment is in pristine condition, I see no
problem with this, ESPECIALLY SINCE I AM ALSO COVERED BY THIS
LIBERAL RETURN POLICY!
Click to expand...
How about a little truth then? Like maybe they TELL the customer
that he is getting a returned item and let them choose. Why be
clandestine about it and hope that the customer doesn't care? I'd
much prefer a company that is up front with me.

This is why I never shop at Fry's electronics (for those that know
them). They do this all the time. I have taken home software to
find it has already been registered and other stuff like that.
Unacceptable to me.

Frankly, this is another reason why I am OK with paying a little
more to the local shop. At least I can look them in the face and
they know and value me as a customer. There is more to good value
than just low price.

--
Bill in SOCAL
'Stuff' Listed in profile
Click to expand...
I completely understand not wanting a previously handled / used product. But if they don't sell the returned products what should they do with them?

If they discount them it will raise their prices and make them non competitive with the other stores that resell returns. By not discounting the resold item it keeps the prices lower.

Perhaps it there were a law restricting reselling it would only cause many (some) to do it anyway and still put the honest stores at a disadvantage also.
I don't know the perfect answer!!!
--
Richly
 
Why, that just can't BE !!!

Others have claimed that Fry's always puts returns in clearly marked boxes, with a price discount.

FWIW, that's been my experience, too: they have a lot of "open box specials" that have the prices reduced on them.
SOCAL said:
This is why I never shop at Fry's electronics (for those that know
them). They do this all the time. I have taken home software to
find it has already been registered and other stuff like that.
Unacceptable to me.
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Where's the 'forum police' when you need them?
So many off-topic posts, yet they only complain about mine?
Nah, this couldn't be a personal vendetta.
 
Dave37 said:
I can attest to getting a previously used camera from B&H. It was
a Canon S110, and was ordered as a new camera (this was in
2000/2001). 96 pictures had been taken with it before I received
it.
Click to expand...
The mileage on a Canon digicam's odometer is, unfortunately, no indication of prior customer use. Canon tests many of their digicams off the line before they're packed and shipped to retailers. Canon swears they always reset the odometer to zero, but we've had NUMEROUS instances where they haven't.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
 
Scott Goosman said:
If its defective should it be resold?
Click to expand...
No, but that's not what's under discussion here.
Scott Goosman said:
Sounds like a bad slippery slope. If the product is defective then
the product should be sent back to canon by B&H not repackaged and
sold again.
Click to expand...
We agree, which is why that's prcisely what's done.
Scott Goosman said:
B&H does not appear to adhere to such ideas and will
sell you potentially defective products.
Click to expand...
This is COMPLETELY untrue.
Scott Goosman said:
This could be a real
problem if you are ordering mail order, Why should I or you pay
shipping charges on defective products?
Click to expand...
It "could be a real problem" if we ran a sloppy slipshod returns department, but we don't. They're very scrupulous. in fact another thread on this very forum discusses one chap's effort to return a lens which showed signs of usage which initially disqualified it from return. That's since been nresolved, but you can't eat your cake and then have it, can you?

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
 
Scott Goosman said:
There are companies that have great service putting service above
suspicion. One such example is Home Depot,
Click to expand...
SNIP

Sounds like heaven. I wish the Home Depot in Yonkers, NY was 1/10th as decent as the nirvana you describe, but unfortunately it's a pit of agonizing frustration and employee inefficiency.

My PERSONAL Opinion**

--
Henry Posner
 
Jonathan Morse said:
B+H is a great institution, you just have to know what to expect
and how to deal with it.
Click to expand...
Great institution don't require the buyer to beware. If one has to be educated before doing business so as to protect themselves, then they're dealing with a dishonest establishment.

It is a "Black & White" issue. There's no middle ground as "New" means never opened/used by anybody, period. Sort of, the question, "Are they alive." "Well they were a few minutes ago but since falling two hundred feet off a cliff..... no." And once the package has been opened and the product has been used, over the cliff, it's no longer new. Although it was a few minutes prior; Black & White.

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
GregL281 said:
I have ordered a few
“new” lenses from B&H and Adorama and they have all
been opened.
Click to expand...
Since camera hardware doesn't come sealed or shrinkwrapped there's really no way to tell if an item's been opened unless the innards look like they've been substantially pawed through. And, ever try on a sweater and decide not to buy it? Does that look "new" to the next shopper after you and the sales clerk have both tried refolding it?

SNIP
MLynnL said:
I never really had a problem
with this since everything was there and in like-new condition and
functioned perfectly well as far as I can tell. I have only
returned two items to B&H so far, both of which didn’t work
at all. The only thing that I am not quite clear on is what they
do on shipping the items back to them. The first lens I returned
was quite a long time ago and I can’t remember how they did
it. The second one was yesterday. It was a Sigma 105mm macro lens
and the aperture wouldn’t work at all on any camera I own.
They issued an RMA and asked me to send it back to them. I sent it
back at my own expense. I expect that they will reimburse me for
the shipping cost since it is not my fault that the lens they sent
arrived non-functional. I would expect to foot the bill for
shipping if I just didn’t like it and wanted to return it. I
guess I will just have to wait and see what happens, but I
don’t expect to be paying any more for shipping than the
original shipping fee.
Click to expand...
If the return is due to hardware defect or our error either we'll issue a pick-up call and UPS will retreive the parcel, or you can ship it back UPS ground (if you're in the USA) and we'll reimburse your shipping cost. For non-USA customers, we ask they contact customer service first, of course.

If you send it back 'cause you changed your mind, it's on you.

Now, for Greg -- I cannot identify this transaction (or you). E-mail me with the transasction # & I'll double-check.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
 
you have a bad lens. You have demonstrated such in the images. I am merely reeming at the excess of posts lately that seem to quibble over the trivial "defects" that all products will have.

The posts dealing with "Are my images tack sharp ??", "does my camera FF/BF ??", etc, etc.

When people blow up their images to view the actual pixels in PS and then start to criticize the images, the camera, the lens, whatever, I start to squirm. I would bet good money that if many of the famous photos that we all know and love would be blown up to such extremes, they would not pass the "tack sharp" test or the cameras the photographers used would not focus to the exact point they wanted with every lens the used.

You did the proper thing with the lens, real-world and repeatable examples that the lens is defective. If every one did this, the number of posts dealing with the issues would almost disappear.

Chris
Mishkin2 said:
Heck, it's "only" $1.4K!
Chris Otto said:
10D must focus down to the micrometer or its defective.
A lens must be shrink-wrapped and not have a fingerprint on the
casing or the unthinkable tiny speck of dust on the lens itself.
Anything else and the lens must have been used.
Every pixel in the image must be "tack" sharp.

What next ??

10D must attain focus before the shutter is even pressed, it must
read my mind and "know" what must be in focus. Then it will
automattically crop, resize, color adjust, sharpen, and finally
email the photo to family and friends around the globe.

Nothing is perfect. Relax, take a pill, go out and take some
pictures or something.

Jeez.

Chris
DavidP said:
FYI, I'd say that most places that allow you to return "like new"
merchandise without a restocking fee will simply re-sell those
items as new.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Where's the 'forum police' when you need them?
So many off-topic posts, yet they only complain about mine?
Nah, this couldn't be a personal vendetta.
Click to expand...
--
----------------------
http://www.pbase.com/otto9000
See my profile for equipment.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
----------------------
http://www.pbase.com/otto9000
See my profile for equipment.
 
All that has to happen is Canon take a test shot or two with a CF card that already has an image on it, say one numbered #96. The next shot gets numbered #97 (in the right mode).

At least with the DSLR's, Canon can actually go in and see how many actual shutter clicks have been taken. And there's no way for a user to reset that counter, unless they happen to have the Service Manual CD.
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video said:
The mileage on a Canon digicam's odometer is, unfortunately, no
indication of prior customer use. Canon tests many of their
digicams off the line before they're packed and shipped to
retailers. Canon swears they always reset the odometer to zero, but
we've had NUMEROUS instances where they haven't.
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Where's the 'forum police' when you need them?
So many off-topic posts, yet they only complain about mine?
Nah, this couldn't be a personal vendetta.
 
Daniel Jackson said:
If I want to buy NEW, I expect to get brand new never been toughed
by human hands since it was packed at the factory. I don't expect
or want someone elsed return, problem or otherwise. I'm glad I read
this post because my buying at B&H will be limited in the future.
If a store says its new it shouldn't be a repackaged return unless
its so marked and priced.
Click to expand...
If that's how you feel, then with the exception of food and prescription medications I guess you never shop anywhere and never buy anything. :-)

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
 
Nill Toulme said:
I agree that if something is returned because of a putative defect
it should not be resold as new.
Click to expand...
Last year a customer bought and returned two Nikon FM2n bodies and e-mailed me before buying the third with the complaint that all ours were defective. Turns out he was used to a different system, hadn't read the owner's manual, and simply didn't know how to open the back. There was NOTHING wrong with either of the bodies he'd returned.

What should we have done with them in light of the customer's "putative defect?"

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
 
docbrown88 said:
In their defense, I've ordered maybe a dozen items from B&H, all
were mint/new. ADORAMA, on the other hand, sold me UV filters &
Circ Polarizers that were CLEARLY used. Optically in fine
condition, but the metal rings had scratches/wear.
Click to expand...
Adorama doesn't need me to defend them, but in the interest of fairness I will say that from time to time we've had batches of filters from almost every major supplier with QC issues not unlike those you described.
docbrown88 said:
Maybe New York really is that stressful
Click to expand...
The NYC subway is like a girl-scout picnic compared to THIS place some days. :-)
docbrown88 said:
It's interesting that Canon doesn't shrink-wrap their boxes or put
some sort of tamper-seal.
Click to expand...
None of the major manufacturers do, generally. And, as someone else pointed out, shrink-wrap machines are cheap.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
 
DavidP said:
B&H will get it again. It seems that there's somebody that gets
upset every few months or so.

Kinda speaks for the volume of business they do, IMO.
Click to expand...
ROFL.

ALthough, oddly enough, we get more "bashing" here than in all the other dpreview forums combined. Heck, let's bash the new Leica digital R8/R9 back for a while, eh?

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
 
Send me (free of charge, of course) a Leica M body and a few nice lenses for it (I'll let you know the exact specs), and then I'll bash Leica for ya. ;)
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video said:
ALthough, oddly enough, we get more "bashing" here than in all the
other dpreview forums combined. Heck, let's bash the new Leica
digital R8/R9 back for a while, eh?
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Where's the 'forum police' when you need them?
So many off-topic posts, yet they only complain about mine?
Nah, this couldn't be a personal vendetta.
 
I live in NYC and I don't want to be associated with most NYC people either. The attitude and obnoxious demeanor of many far outweigh the nice attitudes of the good-natured people (like me). :)
@Dan.com said:
DavidP said:
Jim Radcliffe said:
I have had similar experiences with people I know who have moved
there, use to live there, etc.. Even when I was in the military
you tell which guys were from New York (or very close to it) by
attitude and demeanor.

I certainly don't suggest that ALL New Yorkers are this way... but
many parts of the country (I've lived all over) seem to have the
opinon that New York can be very unfriendly and that more so than
any other place the buyer must beware.
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Where's the 'forum police' when you need them?
So many off-topic posts, yet they only complain about mine?
Nah, this couldn't be a personal vendetta.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Zero said:
I'm not sure i really want to deal with a store that has too
liberal a return policy.
Click to expand...
Zero said:
They didn't care why you returned it -
therefore, it means they didn't care how it wil be sold to the next
guy. Selling as used is not OK, as the product was found to be
defective.
Click to expand...
Who ever said this? This is your conclusion! I've never seen this happen at the merchant in question about. I'd imagine once they have time to inspect the product it would be sent back to the manufacturer.
Zero said:
Secondly, the cost of processing the liberal return policy has to
come from somewhere - yep, you guessed it - your pockets. I do not
want to pay for someone who is out for a rental or who does not
know what they want and decides to buy both to go and compare. I
do not do that, but I expect others are not so conscientious.
Click to expand...
What? Last time I checked these merchants were destroying the mom and pop stores of the world because of lower prices. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too! As for the reasons this occur is related to competitive oligopolies and buying power so these level of prices and service may not be possible in the camera world but it nice to strive for such levels.
Zero said:
I think a store should let you examine the goods before you buy.
If your purchase is clearly missing some items (like wrist straps,
etc.) this should be obvious at inspection, that way this saves you
time from having to come back for it. If something is wrong with
it then by all means allow exchange for new. If the buyer just
changed their minds, charge a restocking fee and sell as returned
items. That way, the person that changes their mind is the person
who pays, which is where the burden should be. Since they were
given opportunity to inspect in the store beforehand.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't we let the store determine it policies and the free market determine which policies work? Maybe this liberal return policy brings more customers and profits than it loses? Or getting rid of the policy will lose too many costumers? I really can go on for hours why this logic does not necessarily work. The simple point here is that these liberal return policies are not necessarily a sum gain argument.

Scott Goosman
 
I'm really shocked at how good it is done here. Move down to the princeton area and commute if you like! The food will suck down here but the these stores are great!

Oh and even better is we have land for competition so they stay honest!

Scott Goosman
 
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