Do you know when the term FF began to be used?

maybe a fine point to you but the use of F (full) and H (half) on that Konica has nothing to do with defining 135/35mm as "full frame" it just meant that on that specific camera you could get either full or half frame.
In other words, Konica at the time was not calling their own 135mm cameras "full frame".
In fact here is the contradiction :
"It was used also with convertible roll film cameras like the Bessa which had a half fame converter so you could use the 645 half frame or the full 6x9 frame sizes.'
note that yes the term full and half were used but not specifically for 135 mm just as half glass does not mean 125ml it is just half of whatever a full glass contains.
 
People use it because the semantics of it makes them feel better. This was also when all the equivalency nonsense started.
To some, its nonsense when you don't understand it!
As someone who used medium and x-large format film cameras, full frame is a made up term used to bolster up the psyche of those users to make them feel superior to anyone else.
First, all terms in every language - national, technical, formal, jargon - are made up. So saying "full frame" is made up is true but otiose.

Second, although you may not like t-its meaning it certain has one, so saying it's meaningless is simply wrong. As we've seen in this thread, "full frame" was used in cinematography and film photography long before the advent of digital photography but - not generally noted - it was used then in other ways than now.

For technical and commercial reasons early makers of digital cameras re-used lens designs and body formats but with sensors that were smaller than the whole frame of their existing film cameras. This caused some confusion but people came to accept and understand; but when sensors that were the same as the whole frame of their existing film cameras it was only sensible to emphasise this fact (how else would people know what they were?).

Whether people remembered the old term "full frame" or invented it anew really doesn't matter - in the circumstances in which it was introduced it clearly and unambiguously applied to the 36 x 24mm frame size of many 35mm cameras.

It's interesting to speculate about the thought processes of someone who tells us he used larger film cameras. Not to make them feel superior to anyone else, surely? Or why anyone would even think of ascribing any self-boosting reason to the use of a simple, natural, logical term.
In the film days it was 35mm or 135 format, and it was clear what was meant. There was also APS film, disc film, 110, 120, 126 film...not this full frame and crop sensor nonsense!
Ah! The simplicity of film nomenclature. Do those film sizes logically match frame size to number in any order? Were cameras logically described by frame size?

No to both questions. Sort out the sizing order from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_format , noting on the way that many of the film sizes were used for several different frame sizes.

Consider a frame described as 66 - that was nominal size in cm (6 x 6cm) but actually 56 x 56mm - which doesn't convert exactly to 2.1/4 x 2.1/4" either. 645 is different - the 45 is actually intended to represent 4.5cm although it was really 41.5mm. Those are about 1/4 of the frame sizes that were served by 120 film. Note that the frame format bears no relation to the film size - you had to know how they went together by specific knowledge.

Now, if naming were logical a frame of 36 x 24mm would be called something like 425 (4 being a rounding of 36mm to cm in whole numbers, 25 being a rounding of 24mm in half numbers). And that would be one of at least two formats served by 135 film.

So the digital naming system nonsense might be nonsense but compared to the film system it's a paragon of logic.
 
Is it a Digital Era term?
If no, why so many people complain about the use of it.
And if yes, why so many people use it?
It's a digital era term.

People use it because the semantics of it makes them feel better. This was also when all the equivalency nonsense started.
Olympus introduced 'half frame' Pen back in 60's - thus if there was a hlaf, there should had been a full frame too, right? In digital it became 'four thirds' as sounds a lot better than 'a half of something'...:-)
 
maybe a fine point to you but the use of F (full) and H (half) on that Konica has nothing to do with defining 135/35mm as "full frame" it just meant that on that specific camera you could get either full or half frame.
In other words, Konica at the time was not calling their own 135mm cameras "full frame".
Eh? So on one hand you can see the terms half-frame and full frame existed on that camera and Konica defined the two settings but you can't see those terms existed before digital?

So what do half and full refer to? Is it the cameras fat content? or how much speed the camera works at?

That's why Konica define half and full frame–the camera can do both
In fact here is the contradiction :
"It was used also with convertible roll film cameras like the Bessa which had a half fame converter so you could use the 645 half frame or the full 6x9 frame sizes.'
note that yes the term full and half were used but not specifically for 135 mm just as half glass does not mean 125ml it is just half of whatever a full glass contains.
That's retarded. On one hand you can understand that the terms half and full frame existed when applied to cameras that used those terms but you find just because two different film systems used the term that the term never existed before digital?

We have a winner for twisting credible evidence beyond logical meaning-sheesh are you up for some kind of award for not seeing the obvious?

Are you the ex-Iraqi minister that couldn't see American tanks on his lawn?
 
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Is it a Digital Era term?
If no, why so many people complain about the use of it.
And if yes, why so many people use it?

--
No : the term existed back in the film era . Rollei proudly boasted that my 35S was the smallest full frame 35mm camera available ; there were smaller 35mm cameras , but these were half frame . -- With kind regards Derek.
 
The term "Full Frame" started to be used around 1960, when Olympus brought out their first Half Frame cameras (Olympus Pen).

Half Frame is 18x24mm, close to APS-C (which is 25x17mm), and more or less identical to standard 35mm movie format as used before widescreen (or 70mm) became popular.

Movies such as "Casablanca", "Snow White" or "The Gold Rush" were shot on approximately 18x24mm frames. The sound track, if there is one, eats up a little of the picture area, leaving a frame of 18x21mm.

Most Half-frame still cameras shot vertical (portrait) photos, while 35mm Full Frame cameras such as Leicas shoot landscape format. Still cameras can of course be rotated.
There was also Vista Vision , which ran 35mm film sideways to give a non anamorphic widescreen image . http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VistaVision -- With kind regards Derek.
 
The one that is twisting logic and meanings is you.
Clearly the question from the OP is "when the term Full Frame was first used... to mean 24x36" not just when full frame was used in a sentence to mean not half or a quarter of whatever.
Hence the fact that it was used on medium format cameras indicates that the previous use of Full Frame was applied as a general term NOT specifically ,as it is now, to the 24x36 (mm) sensor

Maybe it will help if you think not if the term was used (of course it was) but how and this is the point .
If a customer wanted a Full Frame enlargement from his 126 neg the 8x10 type did not work as it did not work for a Full Frame 135 neg .
So yes we would tell the customer that we could not print the Full Frame (or whole negative,whatever) but that applied to all formats , nothing to do specifically with 24x36 (again ... as it is the case now)
BTW, note the abbreviation FF.
I defy anyone to tell me that if I wrote FF in 1965 (or 75 or 85) it would have been understood to mean 24x36mm.
 
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Well I disagree.
I started to sell cameras in the late 70s and never heard of Full Frame then.
I am VERY familiar with the term Half Frame (I used them...) however the term was either 135 or 35mm never Full Frame .

Mind you sometime those silly sods using 2 1/4 cameras used to refer to 35mm as "miniature" but with a smirk on their face.
The term WAS widely used , not least by Rollei . That you never heard of it only shows that you never heard of it . -- With kind regards Derek.
 
The one that is twisting logic and meanings is you.
Clearly the question from the OP is "when the term Full Frame was first used... to mean 24x36" not just when full frame was used in a sentence to mean not half or a quarter of whatever.
Possibly, but if you can accept it was used on camera's 50 years ago the term existed before digital.
Hence the fact that it was used on medium format cameras indicates that the previous use of Full Frame was applied as a general term NOT specifically ,as it is now, to the 24x36 (mm) sensor
Just like it is now. It is used to imply the full area the camera system and lens is designed for is utilised. Most common format was 35mm so in the digital era those cameras/lenses/systems were used on smaller sensors–exactly the same as the old convertible cameras of yore.

FF would apply to Medium format too. I owned a Phase one 24x36 system in 1999 was that FF? When I tell you it was in a back that went onto a Mamiya 645 it might clue you in.

Here people use the term FF to mean 35mm and that's fine because digital sensors are expensive and crop cameras were a subset of the 35mm system that most amateurs owned before digital.
Maybe it will help if you think not if the term was used (of course it was) but how and this is the point .
No the question is 'was the term full frame used before digital' which of course it was.
If a customer wanted a Full Frame enlargement from his 126 neg the 8x10 type did not work as it did not work for a Full Frame 135 neg .
The term full frame is different in that case because it indicates the customer wants a print that doesn't crop info present, what we are talking about is taking formats, especially where you had convertible cameras that could use half and full frame.
So yes we would tell the customer that we could not print the Full Frame (or whole negative,whatever) but that applied to all formats , nothing to do specifically with 24x36 (again ... as it is the case now)
You're confusing the output (i.e the print) and the terminology used with the cameras terminology they cropped at exposure to get more frames on a roll of film, printing the 'full frame' was independent of that
 
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I'll make it a little clearer for you.
I don't remember having had a single customer nor another sales person referring to a camera that shot 24x36 as "full frame", in fact about the only time people mentioned the film size was when it wasn't a 135 camera.
In other words "this is a Nikon and this is an Olympus Half Frame camera" never "this is a full frame Nikon camera"
That you don't remember does not mean it wasn't so .

Here's an advert from Rollei - just read the second paragraph of the text .

I rest my case .



d5211007d13b42a5a2d603f64536bfbb.jpg



--
With kind regards
Derek.
 
Franco has unfortunately, already moved the goalposts way over as the usage has clearly been demonstrated. First it was "the term was either 135 or 35mm never Full Frame" and "never heard of it", now it's something along the lines of "the definition of FF as referring only to 35mm and nothing else" - which isn't even technically true today, since he himself gave an example of a sentence that violates the rule that would be perfectly fine today :)

Of course we all know that languages evolve slowly, and few things ever suddenly change overnight. We have demonstrated that the process begins long before the digital age, and probably goes into the digital age, and of course what he has done is narrowed his parameters ever tighter to describe the part of the linguistic process which (he thinks, circularly) can only have happened in the digital age, except he's just wrong there too.
 
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Franco has unfortunately, already moved the goalposts way over as the usage has clearly been demonstrated. First it was "the term was either 135 or 35mm never Full Frame" and "never heard of it", now it's something along the lines of "the definition of FF as referring only to 35mm and nothing else" - which isn't even technically true today, since he himself gave an example of a sentence that violates the rule that would be perfectly fine today :)

Of course we all know that languages evolve slowly, and few things ever suddenly change overnight. We have demonstrated that the process begins long before the digital age, and probably goes into the digital age, and of course what he has done is narrowed his parameters ever tighter to describe the part of the linguistic process which (he thinks, circularly) can only have happened in the digital age, except he's just wrong there too.
He's just floundering as he won't/can't admit he's wrong .
 
I'll make it a little clearer for you.
I don't remember having had a single customer nor another sales person referring to a camera that shot 24x36 as "full frame", in fact about the only time people mentioned the film size was when it wasn't a 135 camera.
In other words "this is a Nikon and this is an Olympus Half Frame camera" never "this is a full frame Nikon camera"
That you don't remember does not mean it wasn't so .

Here's an advert from Rollei - just read the second paragraph of the text .

I rest my case .

d5211007d13b42a5a2d603f64536bfbb.jpg

--
With kind regards
Derek.
Thanks for posting that! Franco seems to suggest that I lied when I remembered 'full frame' being mentioned wrt to the Rollei 35 and it registered 4 out of 5 on his BS meter.

When people are that vocal you do doubt you've seen/herd the things you remember.
 
I would like to thank you for adding a new word, otiose, to my vocabulary. I had to look it up.
--
Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Misuse of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.

 
I'll make it a little clearer for you.
I don't remember having had a single customer nor another sales person referring to a camera that shot 24x36 as "full frame", in fact about the only time people mentioned the film size was when it wasn't a 135 camera.
In other words "this is a Nikon and this is an Olympus Half Frame camera" never "this is a full frame Nikon camera"
That you don't remember does not mean it wasn't so .

Here's an advert from Rollei - just read the second paragraph of the text .

I rest my case .

d5211007d13b42a5a2d603f64536bfbb.jpg

--
With kind regards
Derek.
Thanks for posting that! Franco seems to suggest that I lied when I remembered 'full frame' being mentioned wrt to the Rollei 35 and it registered 4 out of 5 on his BS meter.

When people are that vocal you do doubt you've seen/herd the things you remember.
No worries , I was always impressed that they could squeeze it into such a small package , mine pictured below even made my Canon G11 look big alongside .



2_DSC0750.jpg


and with another familiar object for reference



_IGP9242.jpg




--
With kind regards
Derek.
 
Is it a Digital Era term?
If no, why so many people complain about the use of it.
And if yes, why so many people use it?
At the end of the film SLR era the dominant film format was 35mm (24 x 36 mm). The first digital SLRs (DSLRs) used a smaller format than 35mm, mainly because of the cost and technical difficulties of producing a 24 x 36mm sensor. As a result many professionals and enthusiasts had to get used to their lenses having a different field of view on digital than they were used to with 35mm film. The introduction of 24 x 36mm digital sensors therefore simply signalled a return to 'full frame' and therefore normality as far as some were concerned.
Not correct. The term FF appeared when so called half frame (for example olympus pen series) cameras were introduced. That was loooooong time before digital appeared.
Actually, what meland says is completely correct. As it happens, the same term "full frame" was used earlier with different meanings - the one you mention and earlier in cinematography. Those usages are still current but they have nothing to do with the development of digital SLRs and the terminology applied to them, which is what meland describes/
 
As we've seen in this thread, "full frame" was used in cinematography and film photography long before the advent of digital photography but - not generally noted - it was used then in other ways than now.
Having shot film for decades I've never heard of that term until people started comparing dSLRs.

Anyway, to me it's for comparing a fisheye lens that fills the frame vs. one that vignettes (circular). Of course if you say "full frame fisheye" people now say, "What do you use when you have a crop camera?" Sigh!
 

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