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What would it take to get a FW update with EC in M+Auto ISO?

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rrccad said:
riknash said:
bronxbombers4 said:
dpr4bb said:
Pritzl said:
Let's not debate the merit or lack thereof of this feature. I'm just wondering what is the possibility of this happening to other cameras in the Canon line-up like the 70D now that they've been added to the 1DX and 7D mkII? Is there someone who has Canon's ear we can get to pester them?
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Canon will never let you have your cake and eat it, too ;) They want you to buy the 1DX.
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The thing is nobody will go for the 1DX because of autoiso and even if one or two people do, who cares, that's insignificant.
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I doubt Canon will add it to any other existing cameras. New models, yes, but old models no.
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wouldn't make much sense especially to the 70D when the 5D3 I don't think got it.
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I agree. It's not going to happen.

The 70D was not even good enough to be "graced" with the option to check focus quickly right after taking a photo by pressing the magnify button and having a 100% view of the focus point displayed. Presumably, that feature, as mundane and utilitarian as it may be, is too "premium" to be offered at the $1200 price point (for a body). It's pretty much the only reason that I haven't been able to bring myself to buying a 70D to complement my 6D.
 
TTMartin said:
Actually it does, because you can use exposure compensation in Av mode, with Auto ISO and minimum shutter speed combined.
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Let me reiterate the 2 issues with this approach:
  1. It's more cumbersome than changing EC in Manual mode and letting ISO float for the simple reason that it takes 2 steps to change ISO versus 1 (on XXD or higher bodies) to change EC.
  2. More significantly, you can neither set a maximum or exact shutter speed. i.e. if your intention is anything other than "fast enough to freeze motion/eliminate camera shake" then this workaround will not do the job.
The other alternative is to use manual mode and adjust ISO as required to achieve the desired exposure, but as above, this is far more cumbersome than changing EC instead.
 
Pritzl said:
TTMartin said:
Actually it does, because you can use exposure compensation in Av mode, with Auto ISO and minimum shutter speed combined.
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Let me reiterate the 2 issues with this approach:
  1. It's more cumbersome than changing EC in Manual mode and letting ISO float for the simple reason that it takes 2 steps to change ISO versus 1 (on XXD or higher bodies) to change EC.
  2. More significantly, you can neither set a maximum or exact shutter speed. i.e. if your intention is anything other than "fast enough to freeze motion/eliminate camera shake" then this workaround will not do the job.
The other alternative is to use manual mode and adjust ISO as required to achieve the desired exposure, but as above, this is far more cumbersome than changing EC instead.
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Having shot Canon now for over 5 years the only time I wished I had exposure compensation in manual mode was when I needed the shutter speed to be fast enough to freeze motion and eliminate camera shake. Until I started shooting BIF, I didn't see the need for it at all, as most every other situation can be covered using Av mode or Tv mode.
 
dpr4bb said:
dpr4bb said:
[many others]
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I agree. It's not going to happen.
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It may not, but I still think it's worth posing the question. There's always a chance we might be surprised.
dpr4bb said:
The 70D was not even good enough to be "graced" with the option to check focus quickly right after taking a photo by pressing the magnify button and having a 100% view of the focus point displayed. Presumably, that feature, as mundane and utilitarian as it may be, is too "premium" to be offered at the $1200 price point (for a body).
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It also doesn't have dual-function shoulder buttons which would have made it an exceptional eye-to-the-VF camera. If Canon thinks this, and similar missing features, would spur an upgrade to a more expensive body, I'm not sure if they've done their research right. I doubt that any of these features are decision-makers for the vast majority of buyers. So I don't think they gain anything by limiting it to higher end bodies. On the other hand, they may have a lot to gain by rolling it out to other camera bodies via firmware.
 
dpr4bb said:
rrccad said:
riknash said:
bronxbombers4 said:
dpr4bb said:
Pritzl said:
Let's not debate the merit or lack thereof of this feature. I'm just wondering what is the possibility of this happening to other cameras in the Canon line-up like the 70D now that they've been added to the 1DX and 7D mkII? Is there someone who has Canon's ear we can get to pester them?
Click to expand...
Canon will never let you have your cake and eat it, too ;) They want you to buy the 1DX.
Click to expand...
The thing is nobody will go for the 1DX because of autoiso and even if one or two people do, who cares, that's insignificant.
Click to expand...
I doubt Canon will add it to any other existing cameras. New models, yes, but old models no.
Click to expand...
wouldn't make much sense especially to the 70D when the 5D3 I don't think got it.
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I agree. It's not going to happen.

The 70D was not even good enough to be "graced" with the option to check focus quickly right after taking a photo by pressing the magnify button and having a 100% view of the focus point displayed. Presumably, that feature, as mundane and utilitarian as it may be, is too "premium" to be offered at the $1200 price point (for a body). It's pretty much the only reason that I haven't been able to bring myself to buying a 70D to complement my 6D.
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The ergo on the 70D is a botched compromise. much like most budget DSLR s are intentionally built. For the price it should reflect a better design but likely the team was forced to keep it a bit clunky. Even the 5D III is botched in places, but far better for most operations. Maybe someone can suggest a better way to magnify review, using just my right hand. The left hand is too busy holding the large telephoto lens from dropping.
 
TTMartin said:
Actually I was basing that on statements I had read that said you needed to go into the menu system to set it. Reviewing the manual it is obvious that it can be configured to be set a number of different ways without entering the menu system. I retract my statement that the implementation in the 7D Mk II is less than ideal.
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:)
TTMartin said:
I really wish reviewers would RTFM!!! (Read The Full Manual)
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True. But in their attempt to be quick they do make mistakes sometime. Even DPreview had this mistake in their first version of their review (maybe you are referring to that actually) but that has since been corrected...
 
TTMartin said:
Having shot Canon now for over 5 years the only time I wished I had exposure compensation in manual mode was when I needed the shutter speed to be fast enough to freeze motion and eliminate camera shake. Until I started shooting BIF, I didn't see the need for it at all, as most every other situation can be covered using Av mode or Tv mode.
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I'm confused. You've just conceded that a feature meant nothing to you until you started shooting something different and yet continue to discount it.

I am not trying to convince you that it is important; although you seem conflicted judging by your post. I'm just explaining that the workaround you suggested does not work as well for those of us who do think it is.

And this is why I did not want to debate the merits of the feature. I really just wanted to ponder the likelihood and means to influence Canon to extend their features through firmware approach to other bodies in their line-up. Perhaps my mistake was mentioning a specific feature in the first place...
 
riknash said:
The ergo on the 70D is a botched compromise. much like most budget DSLR s are intentionally built.
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Hey! I love my 70D. It's ergonomics may not be perfect that they are far from a "botched compromise" and do work for me. However, ergonomics are a very subjective thing so if you added "for me" to the above statement I would have no problem with it.
 
Pritzl said:
TTMartin said:
Having shot Canon now for over 5 years the only time I wished I had exposure compensation in manual mode was when I needed the shutter speed to be fast enough to freeze motion and eliminate camera shake. Until I started shooting BIF, I didn't see the need for it at all, as most every other situation can be covered using Av mode or Tv mode.
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I'm confused. You've just conceded that a feature meant nothing to you until you started shooting something different and yet continue to discount it.

I am not trying to convince you that it is important; although you seem conflicted judging by your post. I'm just explaining that the workaround you suggested does not work as well for those of us who do think it is.

And this is why I did not want to debate the merits of the feature. I really just wanted to ponder the likelihood and means to influence Canon to extend their features through firmware approach to other bodies in their line-up. Perhaps my mistake was mentioning a specific feature in the first place...
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Which goes back to my original point that Canon slightly modifying an existing feature like minimum shutter speed in Auto ISO is a lot more likely and realistic than them adding a complete new feature like Auto ISO in manual mode.
 
TTMartin said:
Having shot Canon now for over 5 years the only time I wished I had exposure compensation in manual mode was when I needed the shutter speed to be fast enough to freeze motion and eliminate camera shake. Until I started shooting BIF, I didn't see the need for it at all, as most every other situation can be covered using Av mode or Tv mode.
Click to expand...
That is one of the situations where the minimum shutter speed rule would work in Av - but take my example where I wanted constant shutter speed and aperture for panning shots with good background blur.

For example at the Spa Franchorchamps F1 track there is one corner where you can pan with the race cars without interfering fences and with moderate focal length - for a F1 car 50-60mm focal length on APS-C is just about perfect to leave some space in front of the car. So the unaltered 1/FL rule would give you roughly 1/50th shutter speed - which unfortunately is too slow for my skill level to get a decent keeper ratio while panning. That's why I need 1/100th there, still with nice motion blur on the background and the wheels to get a high keeper ratio. Since the cars are a variety of colors and brightness I would need a small negative EC to be able to get the shot right then and there (you hear the cars before they get into sight, and you can discern which brand is coming around the corner after some time - this year's "singing" Ferrari engine is hilarious but very distinctive, as was the gear box noise from Vettels Red Bull last year) even for the white LMP1 Porsche or equally bright white Williams F1 - so I must do that later in post processing, which isn't a problem because the highest ISO I got there was ISO-250 or 320, so plenty of headroom...
 
Pritzl said:
It may not, but I still think it's worth posing the question. There's always a chance we might be surprised.
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I would be ambivalent. If the 70D does get the enhanced firmware then to me that would be a sign that the 80D is further away in the timeline than many would think...
 
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
TTMartin said:
Having shot Canon now for over 5 years the only time I wished I had exposure compensation in manual mode was when I needed the shutter speed to be fast enough to freeze motion and eliminate camera shake. Until I started shooting BIF, I didn't see the need for it at all, as most every other situation can be covered using Av mode or Tv mode.
Click to expand...
That is one of the situations where the minimum shutter speed rule would work in Av - but take my example where I wanted constant shutter speed and aperture for panning shots with good background blur.

For example at the Spa Franchorchamps F1 track there is one corner where you can pan with the race cars without interfering fences and with moderate focal length - for a F1 car 50-60mm focal length on APS-C is just about perfect to leave some space in front of the car. So the unaltered 1/FL rule would give you roughly 1/50th shutter speed - which unfortunately is too slow for my skill level to get a decent keeper ratio while panning. That's why I need 1/100th there, still with nice motion blur on the background and the wheels to get a high keeper ratio. Since the cars are a variety of colors and brightness I would need a small negative EC to be able to get the shot right then and there (you hear the cars before they get into sight, and you can discern which brand is coming around the corner after some time - this year's "singing" Ferrari engine is hilarious but very distinctive, as was the gear box noise from Vettels Red Bull last year) even for the white LMP1 Porsche or equally bright white Williams F1 - so I must do that later in post processing, which isn't a problem because the highest ISO I got there was ISO-250 or 320, so plenty of headroom...
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And the 7D Mk II has exposure compensation in manual mode with auto ISO. And you've made it very clear that you'd never consider a 70D or 6D due to their ergonomics. So I'm not sure your what your dog is in this.

Again my primary point is that Canon slightly modifying an existing feature like minimum shutter speed in Auto ISO in the 6D and 70D is a lot more likely and realistic than them adding a complete new feature like Auto ISO in manual mode.
 
TTMartin said:
Which goes back to my original point that Canon slightly modifying an existing feature like minimum shutter speed in Auto ISO is a lot more likely and realistic than them adding a complete new feature like Auto ISO in manual mode.
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I doubt adding EC in Manual mode is much harder from a coding perspective. It may be as simple as:

if ( mode==manual && ISO==auto ) { do not disable EC; }

For clarity, I'm not saying that is the case, just that it may be simpler than you think. (or not)

Conversely, adding more values to the minimum shutter speed interface may actually involve a bit more work; at the very least there is the overhead of a UI update to accommodate all the new values and possibly increasing the register size for recording that setting. (250 only requires 1 byte but anything greater than 255 requires 2)
 
Pritzl said:
TTMartin said:
Which goes back to my original point that Canon slightly modifying an existing feature like minimum shutter speed in Auto ISO is a lot more likely and realistic than them adding a complete new feature like Auto ISO in manual mode.
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I doubt adding EC in Manual mode is much harder from a coding perspective. It may be as simple as:

if ( mode==manual && ISO==auto ) { do not disable EC; }

For clarity, I'm not saying that is the case, just that it may be simpler than you think. (or not)
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Most likely NOT, because in Av mode the rear dial controls exposure compensation, and in Tv mode the rear dial controls exposure compensation. In manual mode the rear dial controls the Av (or Tv). So another way of controlling exposure compensation when in manual mode has to be devised.
Pritzl said:
Conversely, adding more values to the minimum shutter speed interface may actually involve a bit more work; at the very least there is the overhead of a UI update to accommodate all the new values and possibly increasing the register size for recording that setting. (250 only requires 1 byte but anything greater than 255 requires 2)
Click to expand...
 
TTMartin said:
And the 7D Mk II has exposure compensation in manual mode with auto ISO. And you've made it very clear that you'd never consider a 70D or 6D due to their ergonomics. So I'm not sure your what your dog is in this.
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Why can't you accept that while the camera isn't on my short list I can still weigh in with a discussion about the merit of certain things.
TTMartin said:
Again my primary point is that Canon slightly modifying an existing feature like minimum shutter speed in Auto ISO in the 6D and 70D is a lot more likely and realistic than them adding a complete new feature like Auto ISO in manual mode.
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While what you say is true the implications for Canon would still be that those that want a true EC in manual mode with auto ISO will be disappointed - and rightfully so. So I still think that Canon will leave the setting as it is but if they chose to do an upgrade firmware (as opposed to a bugfix one) they do so properly. But the implication of the latter behavior will be that the 80D will be further in the future than the usual xxD upgrade cycles indicate...
 
TTMartin said:
Most likely NOT, because in Av mode the rear dial controls exposure compensation, and in Tv mode the rear dial controls exposure compensation. In manual mode the rear dial controls the Av (or Tv). So another way of controlling exposure compensation when in manual mode has to be devised.
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You're absolutely right. It actually dawned on me just a few minutes ago and I got back here to concede that point but you beat me to the punch. So yes, we would need some other way to control EC if this was an option. How is it done on the 7DII/1DX?
 
Pritzl said:
TTMartin said:
Most likely NOT, because in Av mode the rear dial controls exposure compensation, and in Tv mode the rear dial controls exposure compensation. In manual mode the rear dial controls the Av (or Tv). So another way of controlling exposure compensation when in manual mode has to be devised.
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You're absolutely right. It actually dawned on me just a few minutes ago and I got back here to concede that point but you beat me to the punch. So yes, we would need some other way to control EC if this was an option. How is it done on the 7DII/1DX?
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The way I read from the 7D Mk II manual, it can be done entering the menu system (which also could be done on the 6D or 70D), it can be done by holding the new lever next to the joystick and turning the main dial, or holding the set button and turning the main dial (which also could be done on the 6D or 70D).

edit: It seems to be a greater programming change then simply providing more options to the existing minimum shutter speed during auto ISO.

I haven't looked into how it is done on the 1D X as it is beyond my financial means.

--
All statements in my posts represent my interpretation of data, research opinion or viewpoints.
The opinions expressed are not representations of fact, and are subject to change without notice.
All images are used for educational purposes.
 
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