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The 7D2 is spec'ed like a 1-series. And people still complain...?
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altair8800
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I think the cost for that is inferior still image sensor. A lot of development time spent on DPAF for video instead of matching (or better) the Sony sensors in low noise and resolution.
Jerry-astro
Veteran Member
OK, before our esteemed moderator has a conniption fit and nukes the thread, I'll try to tone it down a bit and simply make a few clarifying points. I'm sure you'll disagree and we can simply agree that we have different views and move on... fair enough?
This isn't about what I want. I've already made my decision and while I still own a 7D, my primary shooter is now a Fuji X-T1. I've owned a Sony once, thanks... never again. Great sensors, terrible ergonomics. IQ was only a secondary consideration when I made that move to Fuji... weight and bulk were the primary reasons, however, I very much appreciate the IQ improvements I've seen since moving. None of my feedback pertained to specifics of my needs, but instead my perception of what Canon should be introducing to make the Mk2 as successful as possible. I've had my 7D since it was introduced. I realize your view differs considerably, and that's just fine.
You describe the Mk2 as if it's strictly a sports or action camera and perhaps more for pros (pls correct me if I misinterpreted that). That may be the usage the design is optimized around, however, many enthusiasts need a more rounded set of functionality. While I think a flippy screen would be a real asset, I really do understand that the ergonomic impact may have made it a non starter. I only take difference with the notion that this feature is pretty well only for amateurs, as a number of posts here have implied. There are some pretty serious photographers who use the 7D for macro photography, where that screen can be absolutely invaluable.
Honestly, I think both the screen and WiFi are somewhat secondary issues. IQ is the primary issue and if it's good enough for you... hey... go for it. I see the 70D as a nice incremental enhancement to the 7D sensor, but significantly short of where it needs to be to be competitive with the best sensor technology out there. Why shouldn't a package with all the functionality that the 7DMk2 is purported to have (not to mention the likely price point) not also have a best of class sensor, particularly after 5 years between models? Does that really seem that far out there?
Anyway, just wanted to clarify a few points and take this out of the mud. I appreciate your different viewpoint, and I'm confident we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
This isn't about what I want. I've already made my decision and while I still own a 7D, my primary shooter is now a Fuji X-T1. I've owned a Sony once, thanks... never again. Great sensors, terrible ergonomics. IQ was only a secondary consideration when I made that move to Fuji... weight and bulk were the primary reasons, however, I very much appreciate the IQ improvements I've seen since moving. None of my feedback pertained to specifics of my needs, but instead my perception of what Canon should be introducing to make the Mk2 as successful as possible. I've had my 7D since it was introduced. I realize your view differs considerably, and that's just fine.
You describe the Mk2 as if it's strictly a sports or action camera and perhaps more for pros (pls correct me if I misinterpreted that). That may be the usage the design is optimized around, however, many enthusiasts need a more rounded set of functionality. While I think a flippy screen would be a real asset, I really do understand that the ergonomic impact may have made it a non starter. I only take difference with the notion that this feature is pretty well only for amateurs, as a number of posts here have implied. There are some pretty serious photographers who use the 7D for macro photography, where that screen can be absolutely invaluable.
Honestly, I think both the screen and WiFi are somewhat secondary issues. IQ is the primary issue and if it's good enough for you... hey... go for it. I see the 70D as a nice incremental enhancement to the 7D sensor, but significantly short of where it needs to be to be competitive with the best sensor technology out there. Why shouldn't a package with all the functionality that the 7DMk2 is purported to have (not to mention the likely price point) not also have a best of class sensor, particularly after 5 years between models? Does that really seem that far out there?
Anyway, just wanted to clarify a few points and take this out of the mud. I appreciate your different viewpoint, and I'm confident we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
The specs of the 7DII is the GREATEST FIASCO, five years to reléase the same camera with the same body? cameon!!!!
Matt105483
Veteran Member
it might be too late ... I am sure our two helicopter mods are already upset.
WiFi has never hurt that is for sure. I imagine the reasons its not on the 7Dx is cost and Canon wants to sell their WiFi add on gadgets....
It is. I am not saying I resist better IQ but the IQ as at a point where I value the other benefits of the 7D more. I might be a bad photographer but if something moves I will usually shoot a whole serious of shots and pick the best ones. For that 10fps and great AF will yield me more good in focus shots at the expense of some IQ which is better then missed out of focus shots with great IQ ...
This is true. It could have been better but it is also not so bad. Take in mind though that the reason other brand's cameras dont have 10fps RAW with near pro AF systems because it is not doable at reasonable cost or not at all.
No its not far out. But you cant have everything. IQ, AF, drive speed, mechanical construction all has to be developed. it might be that it is simply not possible to get it all right. Sony and Nikon cant make a 10fps RAW camera with 65 AF points and dont get blasted for it.
I dont think we disagree that much ...
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R
rrccad
Guest
same body? well duh....
rwbaron
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rwbaron
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Jerry-astro
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Limburger
Veteran Member
Seriously, ever looked at his pictures?
The ones that were taken pre 7D...kumbaya
I have.
Karl is bold but he knows what he is talking about and can take pictures, very good ones.
So buy Nikon or grow (.) (.)
Stop that Karl bashing, it shows you don't understand.
Canon is not for you, so why stick with it?
Please leave, please buy Nikon or Sony.
--
Cheers Mike
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photog7320
Veteran Member
Canon is actually not that far behind. This is a myth caused by DxO's screwed up testing.
Imatest put the 70D at 13 stops and Nikon (Exmor) APS-C sensors are generally at 13.1 to 13.3. (5D mkIII is 12.4 vs. 13.3 for the D800.)
The difference is that Canon has more shadow noise. If you don't push shadows more then a couple stops in post it's a non issue. If you try to push them +4 or +5 stops then they look fairly ugly compared to Exmor.
Fred Miranda and Tony Northrup emphasized this by turning off all NR in their comparison tests and then pushing as hard as they possibly could. To me that's a cheap shot. In the real world you would of course use NR in your RAW converter, and you rarely push shadows more then 2 or 3 stops.
But, back to the main point, even in their tests the Canon does not block up to black sooner then the Nikon. The DR is actually very similar. Your flexibility in how you use that DR in post is what's different.
photog7320
Veteran Member
If the NX1 can track like a 1DX or D4s but at 15 fps WITH a deep buffer then I will be blown away.
Given the history and current state of the art with on-sensor AF I do not believe for a minute this will happen. You will shoot 15 fps and maybe 3 fps will be in focus.
I could be wrong, but I highly doubt the NX1 is going to displace any pro Canon bodies. And make no mistake, the 7D mkII is spec'd to be a pro Canon crop sports body.
Given the history and current state of the art with on-sensor AF I do not believe for a minute this will happen. You will shoot 15 fps and maybe 3 fps will be in focus.
I could be wrong, but I highly doubt the NX1 is going to displace any pro Canon bodies. And make no mistake, the 7D mkII is spec'd to be a pro Canon crop sports body.
Jerry-astro
Veteran Member
Mike, this discussion (and this thread) is about camera technology, not skills as a photographer. I haven't looked at his portfolio but have little doubt that he might be quite skilled as a photographer. No one is questioning that. I've already moved most of my daily photography away from Canon to Fuji, but I also remain a 7D owner at least for the time being. Regardless, I'm entitled to take part in these discussions just as you are, so if you're unhappy with the comments, feel free to bug out.Seriously, ever looked at his pictures?
The ones that were taken pre 7D...kumbaya
I have.
Karl is bold but he knows what he is talking about and can take pictures, very good ones.
So buy Nikon or grow (.) (.)
Stop that Karl bashing, it shows you don't understand.
Canon is not for you, so why stick with it?
Please leave, please buy Nikon or Sony.
--
Cheers Mike
The issue I (and others) have is one of balance and perspective. Karl has been an unwavering cheerleader for Canon, which is fine, but he refuses to acknowlegdge that other companies might be gaining a technological advantage in sensor development at Canon's expense -- a fact that is not necessarily all that controversial among most people participating in this forum. There's nothing wrong with critical thinking when it comes to looking at new developments... quite the opposite IMHO.
If you appreciate Karl's comments and contributions, more power to you, Mike. But please don't come down on others who see many of his comments as unbalanced, lacking perspective, and totally biased in favor of Canon. You can disagree with that assessment, but you don't get to chase those that feel that way away. Sorry.
Limburger
Veteran Member
To me its like Karl uses his camera where it shines (window) and others bash Canon for what it is not good at (outside the window).
Imho Karl deserves a bit more respect.
Imho Karl deserves a bit more respect.
Jerry-astro
Veteran Member
We'll have to agree to disagree, Mike (though I have to admit to not fully understanding your comment above). This forum is all about critical thinking and perspective and my respect goes to those that can look at both sides of an argument in a balanced way. I'm sure Karl appreciates your support but I have yet to see him look at the issues being explored here in a balanced way and not being afraid to criticize when Canon appears to fall behind compatitively (as they appear to be in some ways now IMHO).
To be clear, in spite of my being critical of some aspects of Canon's technology, there's no doubt that they remain a powerhouse in this industry. My decision to go elsewhere had less to do with any dissatisfaction with them or their products and more about the fact that DSLRs in general no longer meet my needs for size and weight. I really wish Canon would be an active participant in the mirrorless market because with a competitive product, they would have been a no-brainer choice for me (sorry, but the M doesn't really count IMHO).
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altair8800
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Me too!
or less
But I suspect the sensor in NX1 will be much better than that in 7DII. However, I looked for NX lenses on Adorama and the longest I found was 200mm, so not for me, unless Sigma would have NX mount for their 150- 600mm.
rwbaron
Veteran Member
I fear though the NX1 will simply not be as usable in the field as the specs might appear, the A77II certainly isn't from my experience. You are spot on with lenses too, they are a long way of even competing. But Samsung haven't become the worlds biggest electronics giant for nothing, they certainly have the resources to whip almost anyone, but only if they felt it would be profitable. Time will tell.
And just for fun, here is a rumoured image of the interior shell of the non existent 7DII
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danelmix
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Silat Shooter
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Completely agree, the articulating screen is extremely useful. I like the Sony implementation, works like TLR of old. Also touchscreen is another feature that once you use, you start to like. Picking the focus point quickly is a great tool, as is tripping the shutter.
I'm eager to see if there's a noticeable improvement in high ISO, low light image quality on this new 7D II. The other specs look solid, and while I wish it had 4K video, just so I would have to think about upgrading down the line when 4K becomes mainstream. Hopefully in there already in Magic Latern will unlock.
I guess if Samsung hadn't introduced a new 28 meg sensor, folks here would feel better about the 7D. But we can all feel pretty safe in saying we know the 7D II will be a real working tool especially for telephoto work. I'm hoping it excels in low light as well.
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