People are overestimating the cost of making an SLR. They have been sold dirt cheap for decades. The cheapest Canon DSLR's eg. are very profitable as well.
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Is Ricoh serious about the Pentax’s future?
- Thread starter JimBim
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Have you taken into consideration that the different colours and kits counts as different models in all sales numbers I've seen?
The Q comes in an awful number of colors....
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And I expect you will too
You bet!And I expect you will too
DDoram
Forum Pro
Hi Paul:
You are right they will probably produce a FF DSLR eventually. However, since the FF market is crowded right now, is that the best approach? For me the APSC is a sweet spot that I will continue to use.
Dale
You are right they will probably produce a FF DSLR eventually. However, since the FF market is crowded right now, is that the best approach? For me the APSC is a sweet spot that I will continue to use.
Dale
Joseph Tainter
Forum Pro
Thanks, Jim. Those are very good observations about Japanese corporate culture.
Back when Pentax was independent, I often thought that many of the company's public relations problems arose from the failure of Pentax's managers to understand the cultural expectations of their non-Japanese customers. Conversely, those same customers often do not understand Japanese corporate culture.
Back when the SDM problems arose, and when Pentax had more problems with design and quality control, I often wondered if the need to save face prevented employees from bringing these problems to the attention of management.
Joe
Back when Pentax was independent, I often thought that many of the company's public relations problems arose from the failure of Pentax's managers to understand the cultural expectations of their non-Japanese customers. Conversely, those same customers often do not understand Japanese corporate culture.
Back when the SDM problems arose, and when Pentax had more problems with design and quality control, I often wondered if the need to save face prevented employees from bringing these problems to the attention of management.
Joe
Petroglyph
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In the sales numbers I saw from Japan they were compiled by model number, I think, so Q10 might be the #7 on the sales list. Colour didn't seem to matter for the chart I read. If they lumped all Q models together it could be higher. The point is, what is Ricoh selling that is very popular and that they will continue to develop.
Petroglyph
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paulkienitz
Veteran Member
I thought the same, until a 70-200 appeared on the roadmap, and then Asahiman endorsed the idea of FF lenses being announced in September.
smafdy
Forum Enthusiast
Canon is big into business machines. Nikon concentrates on optics. Fuji had to get out of film, or go the way of Kodak. Oly specializes in medical imaging. Sony, Samsung, and others have captured market share in the photo market.
Ricoh wouldn't have bought Pentax just to mothball it.
Ricoh wouldn't have bought Pentax just to mothball it.
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- repainting basically K-20/K-7 technology to sell to the mainstream (K50/K500), then"
Gary Martin
Veteran Member
Marketing departments don't drive product development, their job is to enhance the perception of existing products and brand identity. I wouldn't make any bets on future direction based upon comments from marketing personnel. Actual product releases tell the true story. If Ricoh releases lenses designed for larger sensors, the cameras will obviously follow. The rest is just meaningless blather.
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OpticsEngineer
Veteran Member
I work for a very large American company. But years ago, I worked for a small company. I am still in the same location doing the same things. But my small company was bought by a medium sized company. And then the medium size company was bought by a huge company
One thing I learned was that the deal makers that handle the mergers are short term mercenaries. They make the deal and move on. The plans they had for why the deal was good, that convinced the top management to make the acquisition, are focused on a very narrow area, and data from past performance. The plans made before the purchase get partially executed.. some parts are never done.
Once the deal is done, and the deal makers get big payoffs and move on, it takes a year or two before the bigger company slowly comes to realize what they actually bought.
Sometimes the management realizes, "wow what I bargain we got." Sometimes the management finds out, "complete disaster." For my little group and a few others, it was "wow what a bargain." For one other I know about, it was complete total disaster. Just like flushing money down a toilet.
I do not know how Japanese business works at all. I have worked with Chinese, Malayasian, German and British. All completely different. (Actually I do have experience trying to sell in Japan... just nothing worked out)
But I thought it was a very good point that was made in an earlier post, that when Ricoh bought Pentax, DSLR sales were still strong. If it were an American company, I could confidentially say the management at Ricoh probably ask themselves the exact same question the OP did on a fairly regular basis. But since they are Japanese, and the Japanese have a different way of looking at things, I can't really say.
One thing I learned was that the deal makers that handle the mergers are short term mercenaries. They make the deal and move on. The plans they had for why the deal was good, that convinced the top management to make the acquisition, are focused on a very narrow area, and data from past performance. The plans made before the purchase get partially executed.. some parts are never done.
Once the deal is done, and the deal makers get big payoffs and move on, it takes a year or two before the bigger company slowly comes to realize what they actually bought.
Sometimes the management realizes, "wow what I bargain we got." Sometimes the management finds out, "complete disaster." For my little group and a few others, it was "wow what a bargain." For one other I know about, it was complete total disaster. Just like flushing money down a toilet.
I do not know how Japanese business works at all. I have worked with Chinese, Malayasian, German and British. All completely different. (Actually I do have experience trying to sell in Japan... just nothing worked out)
But I thought it was a very good point that was made in an earlier post, that when Ricoh bought Pentax, DSLR sales were still strong. If it were an American company, I could confidentially say the management at Ricoh probably ask themselves the exact same question the OP did on a fairly regular basis. But since they are Japanese, and the Japanese have a different way of looking at things, I can't really say.
shuterless1
Member
100% agree.
JimC1101
Leading Member
Yes, correct on what you said about how many mergers operate within the US, more so like corporate raiders, and I think it is the same in Japan, but to a lesser extent.
As I had stated prior in this thread, I worked for Seiko for 9 years, working at Seiko US, Torrance, and our division, Digital Imaging was handled in the Silicon Valley, San Jose. I learned alot from a Japanese company and learned that there were certain "ways" in wich business was performed. Again as I had said, it became very interesting to see meetings in which there was respect from the work flow up to down, and many times during the day, there was more thought to make sure that the boss is right, don't make him look disrespectful, and make sure you don't make a mistake which will again, shown disrespect by making a wrong mistake that your boss will have to be answered to above. Harmony within the organization was key. It was interesting when I would go to Japan for a week or two and would spend time with my counterparts. We would have talks, have lunch and seem very nice, but there was something that I would always notice more or less seemed out of harmony when they were speaking to us. I laughed with my co workers with me on the trip who would be very gracious, bow to us politely shaking our hand and then telling us they were happy to see us, but in the back of my mind, I felt like they were happy that we could go home because being with them for that period of time there was Chōwa no uchi (out of harmony) when we were there, and they could be themselves again once we leave. That is not a bad thing, it is just that the Japanese culture is a very disciplined group.
Also, that is why there is so much socializing at work, where they stay late, drink all night, live in capsule hotels, so that they can let themselves be themselves, and as I stated above, more business decisions are made after hours because of that. I am sure that the same is true within the group of Ricoh and Pentax, and I am sure it is much different than say the Konica Minolta merger with Sony. As you saw in that, it looks as though Sony had no real thought to take the Konica, Minolta or Konica Minolta name once the merger occurred.
I think Sony wanted a DSLR, want it as a Sony and moved forward with no thought of the history that occurred before the two other manufacturers. With Ricoh, they have handled it mush more differently. They show the importance of the Pentax name, brand and loyalty that has been built for many years. In doing so, they are treading on finer waters to make sure that they don't make the wrong mistake, or that they don't offend the previous Pentax group (Engineers) to lose face by not showing that they truly are important. This is why I think Ricoh will be going forward for some time with the Pentax merger and it will be much stronger. If it was just a name Ricoh wanted, they would have placed Pentax on everything, including the nameplate above the lens. They respect Pentax and what it has to offer and they do not want to offend. I am happy that they are doing what they are doing. At least they did not do what Sony did and just took over the entire process including naming.
I think the Ricoh merger is taking longer because of this, but I think they have also shown, as we have from the days since the merger, to shown the fruits of the merger were a positive, and the best will get better. It is just that from an American/European prospective that we are use to, it happens a lot slower in the Japanese environment. I am sure there will be a few more beer meeting before we will see these and until then, we will see the future. For now though, Bīru motto kudasai.
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Jim
As I had stated prior in this thread, I worked for Seiko for 9 years, working at Seiko US, Torrance, and our division, Digital Imaging was handled in the Silicon Valley, San Jose. I learned alot from a Japanese company and learned that there were certain "ways" in wich business was performed. Again as I had said, it became very interesting to see meetings in which there was respect from the work flow up to down, and many times during the day, there was more thought to make sure that the boss is right, don't make him look disrespectful, and make sure you don't make a mistake which will again, shown disrespect by making a wrong mistake that your boss will have to be answered to above. Harmony within the organization was key. It was interesting when I would go to Japan for a week or two and would spend time with my counterparts. We would have talks, have lunch and seem very nice, but there was something that I would always notice more or less seemed out of harmony when they were speaking to us. I laughed with my co workers with me on the trip who would be very gracious, bow to us politely shaking our hand and then telling us they were happy to see us, but in the back of my mind, I felt like they were happy that we could go home because being with them for that period of time there was Chōwa no uchi (out of harmony) when we were there, and they could be themselves again once we leave. That is not a bad thing, it is just that the Japanese culture is a very disciplined group.
Also, that is why there is so much socializing at work, where they stay late, drink all night, live in capsule hotels, so that they can let themselves be themselves, and as I stated above, more business decisions are made after hours because of that. I am sure that the same is true within the group of Ricoh and Pentax, and I am sure it is much different than say the Konica Minolta merger with Sony. As you saw in that, it looks as though Sony had no real thought to take the Konica, Minolta or Konica Minolta name once the merger occurred.
I think Sony wanted a DSLR, want it as a Sony and moved forward with no thought of the history that occurred before the two other manufacturers. With Ricoh, they have handled it mush more differently. They show the importance of the Pentax name, brand and loyalty that has been built for many years. In doing so, they are treading on finer waters to make sure that they don't make the wrong mistake, or that they don't offend the previous Pentax group (Engineers) to lose face by not showing that they truly are important. This is why I think Ricoh will be going forward for some time with the Pentax merger and it will be much stronger. If it was just a name Ricoh wanted, they would have placed Pentax on everything, including the nameplate above the lens. They respect Pentax and what it has to offer and they do not want to offend. I am happy that they are doing what they are doing. At least they did not do what Sony did and just took over the entire process including naming.
I think the Ricoh merger is taking longer because of this, but I think they have also shown, as we have from the days since the merger, to shown the fruits of the merger were a positive, and the best will get better. It is just that from an American/European prospective that we are use to, it happens a lot slower in the Japanese environment. I am sure there will be a few more beer meeting before we will see these and until then, we will see the future. For now though, Bīru motto kudasai.
--
Jim
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Alex Sarbu
Forum Pro
Of course it's nothing wrong with it, it's even common sense. No need to develop everything from scratch for every new model; reuse what it works.
However, I will point out that K-30/K-50/K-500 are definitely not "repainted" K20D/K-7. The K20D and K-7 are very different themselves, different body, different processor (PRIME vs. PRIME II), different viewfinder, speed etc. THe K-30/50 family is also different from either K20D and K-7 - different bodies, processor (PRIME M)...
To say they're all same technology repainted is a blatant lie.
Alex
As a Pentax/Ricoh consumer I don't care about 645Z because I'm not personally interested in it at all. 645Z + dedicated lenses (and D4, 1DX, Leicas etc.) are far too expensive for my hobby, and these big bodies are absolutely too hefty for my style, needs etc. Actually in reality (at least for me personally) it's totally irrelevant how 645 compare to D4 - I don't need any of them.JimC1101 wrote:Asahi man, we greatly appreciate all the info you provide, but I hope you realize that the 645Z is not a realistic option for at least 99% of the people who use this forum
Why is that ? If you look at the Nikon D4 from DPR's information, is $6497 and the 645Z is $8596, from B&H. I am sure that if Nikon were to release a medium format camera, it would most likely be around $2K more of what the D4 would be so this pricing in line of what to be expected. Also, there are others who do have the 645Z in the forum and have posted with some of their pictures.
Disclaimer: I understand that regarding technologies and Ricoh market share 645Z is really important and that it can (and will) influence other products in which I'm interested for.
Zvonimir Tosic
Senior Member
Ed said he waited Pentax 30 years to come with a fully reliable, dependable, fast focusing camera. As a comparison, Fujifilm came with an X-T1 is less than 3 years. Plus the dozen lenses consisting a well thought out system, and a future roadmap that was shared openly with the audience.
In marketing effort: Pentax (-) : Fujifilm (+)
In quickness to the market: Pentax (-) : Fujifilm (+)
In listening to user's wishes about lens lineup: Pentax (-) : Fujifilm (+)
It is clear that Fujifilm has far superior camera team management, marketing and investment. It did not need 30 years to come up with a X-T1 (because X-T1 is a mirrorless camera), which is a fair contender in the medium market segment.
DSLR sales are down, mirrorles sales are up and camera companies across the board are lowering their forecasts and reporting falling turnover. In the meantime, customers in droves are resorting to cell phones because modern cameras won't connect to anything and thus do what customers want them to do. In these circs, saying that you are a maker of traditional SLRs is about as useful as saying that you are a distinguished purveyor of neatsfoot oil to Her Majesty Queen Victoria. More of the same just isn't going too work.
Just look at the fall in DSLR sales which most folks seem to think will continue. it means that even if Ricoh grow their DSLR business very well, which naturally we hope they do, they may still be in the same place or even behind it in a few years' time. Do nothing at all and the business might simply shrink with the market so that in 3-5 years it will be worth 30 or 50 per cent less than it is now.
Any plan going forward would have to take this kind of thing into account, surely. It didn't matter so much a few years ago, because smartphones and tablets weren't around. They are now. That is the fundamental change in the balance of power.
Just look at the fall in DSLR sales which most folks seem to think will continue. it means that even if Ricoh grow their DSLR business very well, which naturally we hope they do, they may still be in the same place or even behind it in a few years' time. Do nothing at all and the business might simply shrink with the market so that in 3-5 years it will be worth 30 or 50 per cent less than it is now.
Any plan going forward would have to take this kind of thing into account, surely. It didn't matter so much a few years ago, because smartphones and tablets weren't around. They are now. That is the fundamental change in the balance of power.
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