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Why not more IBIS?

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Landscapephoto99

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Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
 
Landscapephoto99 said:
Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
Click to expand...
1/15 @ ISO 200 and no shutter shock...? Really I don't believe you...

BTW... IBIS is just a marketing decision for each manufacturer... nothing else.
 
Landscapephoto99 said:
Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
Click to expand...
I am as much of an IBIS fan as you are. That's the main reason I used to shoot Pentax and a major reason why I now prefer Oly to Pany bodies. But if the question is why different manufacturers have opted for different solutions, my theory is as follows:

Canon and Nikon started with stabilization already in the film days when IBIS was pretty much impossible.

Konica-Minolta (Sony), Olympus, and Pentax, started with stabilization in the digitial era but before video was on the horizon (at least in the first two cases). IBIS looked like the best way to go at that point.

Panasonic, Fuji, and Sony E/FE-mount started with stabilization when video was on the horizon and found it easier to design a system that would work well for video (more heat, more heavy-duty work) with OIS than with IBIS.

Pentax and Olympus now have IBIS that works well (AFAIK) for video too. Haven't really followed what's up with this on the Sony A-mount side. But Pentax started late and chose an electro-magnetic system from the outset. Oly's old IBIS didn't work with video.

Finally, once a manufacturer has started along a certain route for a certain system, altering that decision is not only costly in terms of R&D but also in terms of "prestige". Changing to the system used by the competition is an implicit recognition that the competition was better (and perhaps still is due to greater familiarity with the technique).
 
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Dr. Noodle said:
1/15 @ ISO 200 and no shutter shock...? Really I don't believe you...
Click to expand...
1/15 shouldn't give any shutter shock, with or without IBIS.
 
Spiridakis Michael said:
Landscapephoto99 said:
Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
Click to expand...
1/15 @ ISO 200 and no shutter shock...? Really I don't believe you...
Click to expand...
Shutter shock isn't all that much of a problem at 1/15. The problem peaks at about 1/125 s and is reduced on either side of that point.
Dr. Noodle said:
BTW... IBIS is just a marketing decision for each manufacturer... nothing else.
Click to expand...
Every camera feature is a marketing decision. The question the OP is asking is why these decisions vary from one manufacturer to another. See here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53821518
 
Landscapephoto99 said:
Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
Click to expand...
OIS?
 
Advent1sam said:
Landscapephoto99 said:
Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
Click to expand...
OIS?
Click to expand...
With any and every lens?
 
Landscapephoto99 said:
Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
Click to expand...
Panasonic included IBIS in the GX7. Maybe it's a start, at least for one model line (the GH4 and GM1, the more recent releases, don't have it).
 
Hmm, that makes sense. Thank you. I guess once manufacturers chose one route it is hard to change. It certainly keeps me from looking to jump ship to another brand, well that and accumulated m43 glass. I think, yes I can get maybe maximum 1 stop better noise (though worse DR) with the best of the best, but I'll be shooting everything at 2 or 3 stops higher ISO so what's the use.
 
Yes, that is true. But you have to buy OIS with each and every lens. And those nice superfast primes aren't going to have it. It gives a real sense of freedom shooting at dusk or in a dark indoors place with the SLR Magic 25mm t0.95 lens or the Olympus 75mm f1.8 lens at <1/30 second.
 
Spiridakis Michael said:
Landscapephoto99 said:
Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
Click to expand...
1/15 @ ISO 200 and no shutter shock...? Really I don't believe you...

BTW... IBIS is just a marketing decision for each manufacturer... nothing else.

--
www.spiridakis.gr
Click to expand...
Prisoners. :D
Prisoners. :D

Busy on the main street. :D
Busy on the main street. :D
 
Landscapephoto99 said:
Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
Click to expand...
Whatever people say about image stabilization, for some kinds of photography it's a super-fantastic paradigm-shifting feature. A while back, a writer at the Luminous Landscape discovered that IS made a cheap Canon G9 in some ways more useful as a camera than his very expensive Leica:
Landscapephoto99 said:
For small-sensor cameras, the ability to work at lower ISOs is also critical to image quality, making slower shutter speeds doubly important. The G9’s imagine stabilization is the best I’ve ever used, and was a key reason to my preferring it over the Leica. The camera’s ability to capture tack sharp images at exposures down to 1/2 second with a bit of proper bracing made working with the G9 a real joy. It literally made my photography bigger -- allowing me to shoot in light that would otherwise have been impossible.

Image Stabilization also proved useful in better lighting conditions, raising my ratio of critically sharp images to a higher level than with almost any other camera I have ever used. I attribute this to the G9’s IS. To be blunt, I can’t see the point of non image stabilized cameras anymore. This tool is just too powerful to ignore. While it is of limited use for dynamic subjects, it is indispensable in many, many situations where great pictures are made or missed. For travel photography, it is a real gift.
Click to expand...
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/G9-Japan.shtml

IBIS means that with an Olympus camera you get image stabilization even with fast prime lenses, something you general don't get with other cameras. An Olympus E-P5 with the rather average 17mm f/1.8 lens will give you sharper photos than the mighty Sony RX1 where camera shake becomes an issue.

However, the answer as to why other camera manufacturers aren't leaping aboard the IBIS bandwagon is because their marketshare isn't threatened by it. Olympus isn't selling enough cameras to scare anyone into thinking that they need to match Olympus' features.

And also, there is a strong bias by camera reviewers that anything that a Canon full-frame DSLR does well is an absolutely necessary feature, while anything that an Olympus mirrorless camera does well is just an interesting oddity but no big deal and no reason to switch systems.

However, Canon did recently add a 35mm f/2 IS lens to its lineup, and it sells for only $50 more than the Olympus 17mm f/1.8. You can get a Canon 6D + 35mm f/2 IS for only a little bit more money than Olympus.
 
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Then there are patents and licensing fees.

What you said about "inertia of mass" is true. Companies tend to stick to our-way-of-doing until they are forced to rethink. I have noticed that they are also a bit blind to what happens around. We are the best...

One more thing with IBIS is size and price. It is a complex structure with sensors and magnets and frames, which takes place (more than double the sensor), needs processing power and coding and adds to power consumption.

The full meaning of IBIS seems to be hard to understand for people who have not really used it. And we have not yet seen the limits of what can be done with IBIS... ;-)

-p-
 
ppotka said:
Then there are patents and licensing fees.
Click to expand...
That's another consideration, yes. But I am not sure how much they can really protect by such means. For example, the new Oly IBIS is essentially the same construction as the Pentax SR, except on the sensor (for human hand-shake) side, where Oly has two more axes (which Pentax could presumably add as well without changing the mechanics).
ppotka said:
What you said about "inertia of mass" is true. Companies tend to stick to our-way-of-doing until they are forced to rethink. I have noticed that they are also a bit blind to what happens around. We are the best...
Click to expand...
I think they pretend to be more blind than they actually are. ;-) It's painful to admit than someone else does something better.
ppotka said:
One more thing with IBIS is size and price. It is a complex structure with sensors and magnets and frames, which takes place (more than double the sensor), needs processing power and coding and adds to power consumption.
Click to expand...
True. On the other hand, the same thing can to at least some extent be said about OIS too. And OIS has to be added in every lens and won't be upgraded when you upgrade the body (and most people are likely to upgrade bodies more frequently than lenses).
ppotka said:
The full meaning of IBIS seems to be hard to understand for people who have not really used it. And we have not yet seen the limits of what can be done with IBIS... ;-)
Click to expand...
You are probably right about that but do you have anything specific in mind? I know Pentax can use their SR for astrophotography (i.e., move the sensor so as to keep the stars fixed within the frame) with an add-on and as a replacement for an AA filter with the K-3. Anything else you have in mind?
 
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IBIS on a full frame sensor might be rather more challenging than it is on m4/3. That would discourage Nikon, Canon, and perhaps Sony from adopting it.
 
Anders W said:
Advent1sam said:
Landscapephoto99 said:
Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
Click to expand...
OIS?
Click to expand...
With any and every lens?
Click to expand...
Not required.
 
Landscapephoto99 said:
Yes, that is true. But you have to buy OIS with each and every lens. And those nice superfast primes aren't going to have it. It gives a real sense of freedom shooting at dusk or in a dark indoors place with the SLR Magic 25mm t0.95 lens or the Olympus 75mm f1.8 lens at <1/30 second.
Click to expand...
I guess that's what Sony FF A7/R think too?
 
Anders W said:
Landscapephoto99 said:
Why don't more brands have something like IBIS? After more than 2 years I'm still awed every time I take an indoor shot with my E-M5, even of people, at 1/15 of a second ISO 200, and get great results. Sony's is moving away from the Alpha serious which does have it and toward the e-mount which doesn't. Pentax still has it and I respect them for it. But Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, not on the horizon.

Even if the Fuji X-T1 is an amazing camera, but who cares if one is forced to take photos at 2 or 3 f stops higher ISO than I'd have to with the OMD series. I'd rather have my E-M5 or if I was going to earn more money from photography, buy an E-M1. I'm aware that IBIS doesn't matter with say photography of football at night or race cars, requiring high shutter speeds, but it helps in more situations than I expected.
Click to expand...
I am as much of an IBIS fan as you are. That's the main reason I used to shoot Pentax and a major reason why I now prefer Oly to Pany bodies. But if the question is why different manufacturers have opted for different solutions, my theory is as follows:

Canon and Nikon started with stabilization already in the film days when IBIS was pretty much impossible.

Konica-Minolta (Sony), Olympus, and Pentax, started with stabilization in the digitial era but before video was on the horizon (at least in the first two cases). IBIS looked like the best way to go at that point.

Panasonic, Fuji, and Sony E/FE-mount started with stabilization when video was on the horizon and found it easier to design a system that would work well for video (more heat, more heavy-duty work) with OIS than with IBIS.

Pentax and Olympus now have IBIS that works well (AFAIK) for video too. Haven't really followed what's up with this on the Sony A-mount side. But Pentax started late and chose an electro-magnetic system from the outset. Oly's old IBIS didn't work with video.

Finally, once a manufacturer has started along a certain route for a certain system, altering that decision is not only costly in terms of R&D but also in terms of "prestige". Changing to the system used by the competition is an implicit recognition that the competition was better (and perhaps still is due to greater familiarity with the technique).
Click to expand...
Very plausible. Another factor might be development cost. KM and Pentax introduced their IS when they were small players (still are) with a lot of legacy lenses. IBIS was a one-time R&D effort bringing IS across the lens line.
 
Absence of IBIS prevented me from buying a Fuji XT1 since I had several MF non-stabilized lenses and old-age shakes. I really liked the dial layout of the Fujis but really needed IBIS. So I bought an Olympus.
 
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