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Micro 4/3: Justify Or Enjoy?

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mimritty said:
David 247 said:
It took me a few years to make the transition from film to digital, and was a bit of culture shock. In film though people used to argue over the differences between Fuji, Agfa and Kodak or leica vs Nikon or 35mm (the stepchild) vs medium and large format. Now we argue over sensor size, pixel, speed and the desire for automation that eliminates the need for the photographer to think about any technical facet.

Gear forums have always been "lively" no matter what. That is okay.
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Very thoughtful post, and well said. Just wanted to add that the same phenomenon crops up in every forum I've ever been on, regardless of the subject matter. Some people adopt a "side" -- technology, politics, method of gardening, TV character, etc. -- become tribal about it, and take it personally. That leads to arguments and the trolling opportunities that go with them. It's the nature of the beast.

I've actually learned a few things from some of the "mine is better than yours" discussions. But I've learned more by looking at the photos that are posted and paying attention to which photographs I'm drawn to and how they were achieved. My main conclusion so far is that the good photographs are achieved by good photographers.
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sdw1 said:
To David 247...

I've read DPR's forums for years.

Your post is struck me as one of the most enjoyable, sagely, balanced responses I have read to an OP.

I read it again - and yet again - and thought and admired - your experience.

No doubt you have had many gains and losses - and see things in a way some don't.

Life is life - and as you conveyed; the push of technology is truly amazing.

Eventually, we may all find our own water level.

Thank you - for taking the time to post.

Doc
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Thanks Doc. Life should be about enjoying. It is good to get excited about new possibilities but that should not take away from what is at hand or what brings us happiness. And yes, many gains and losses in my life. While we are forged in part by our past, it is our attitude and patience that forges our future. I love photography and have since my early teens. But it is about the doing, not the talking. It is our photographs that should speak a thousand words. And even the technically bad ones can sometimes tell a story that words cannot express.

Thank you again for your kind words.
 
doug wever said:
Enthusiast or evangelist?

My middle son tells me the biggest difference between the automotive forums for Mustang and Camaro is that the Camaro crowd is constantly comparing their cars to Mustangs, whereas the Mustang crowd rarely references Camaros at all. As a Chevy owner himself my son says, "the Ford guys just don't seem to have the need to justify their choices over and against another manufacturer's product; and our forums are just littered with this kind of unnecessary chest beating."

As a recent entrant into the micro four thirds format, I was soon reminded of my son's earlier comments, and I called and asked him to repeat it for this post. Because here at 4/3 Micro it seems to be, "we are not a step down from the full size Nikons and the Canons, we belong among the serious and the pros. See here! Just look at these images at X magnification!" Or whatever. I was even reading a guy here who stated how his previous "terrible framing" was corrected by the micro 4/3 format. Really? Another asks "ex-DSLR shooters" if mirrorless has improved their photography. And yet another even starts his thread, "I know I'm preaching to the converted. . ." Great! I've been looking for a church. And on it goes.

Look, I'm smiling. I'm not trying to call anybody out here or confront, which is why I didn't post links to these or any of the other similar comments/threads, you've seen them anyway. I'm just asking, why do some of the 4/3 micro crowd feel the need to justify and even evangelize rather than just appreciate, share, learn, and make images? As a still emerging format can we illustrate our format's differences to simply learn the tool better and not succumb to this need by some to persistently justify our choices over and against the other formats, sensors, and gear? Can we just be photographic enthusiasts with a new format and hardware and go make great stuff?

I'll be out West this Fall among a small group of mildly to significantly accomplished photographers. Going to take two E-M1's (if the 40-150 f/2.8 has been released by then), no Nikons. And if someone with his D4s and massive glass gets a chuckle, fantastic! It is kind of novel at this point.

So if you want to tell me in this community about your choices in order to provide a mutually beneficial learning environment great. But if you've also got this low-grade fever that makes you feel like you have to seek legitimacy for yourself or the rest of us, I don't need that; and frankly, unless you're dealing with a skeptical client, you don't either.

Still getting used to an EVF. Here's to progress.

Respectfully submitted

*How I got in to 4/3 micro: Some time ago I stumbled upon and read a very favorable review of the OM-E E-M1 at pcmagazine.com which led me read many other E-M1 reviews with interest. I subsequently rented an OM-E E-M1 from borrow lens.com for a 10 day test drive, then bought one.
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Photography is supposed to be an enjoyable activity. You can't justify one thing over an other because each person is an individual. Just look at what makes you happy and enjoy the moment.
 
While it may seem, but this is no religion, for me. If so, I'm one of several religions. I use FF, DX, M4:3, 1" and less. I'm not fanboy, every system has something for and against we have to choose the right tool to do what we propose to do. If I feel the need to criticize the system I will, I do not leave criticize just because I use.

M4:3, I am surprised by the versatility, quality, weight, maneuverability. It is a system that does not leave me stuck with a brand cameras or lenses, the choice is enormous, and this to me weighed heavily in the decision to choose. With the M4:3 opens a possibility of growth and promising continuity. No system is perfect, we must take this into account, however, this system is a compromise. Like all others. We must know what we want, and we want to find the solution offers. The important thing is us, above any equipment, it only serves us to complement us.

So, direct response, yes I enjoy this system; and enjoy others too, differently. If I had to choose a single system, this would be the most likely option at this moment.
 
  1. turn computer off
  2. go outside
  3. take camera out of bag
  4. take pictures
  5. have a good day
couldn't resist :-D
 
Paul Amyes said:
doug wever said:
Enthusiast or evangelist?

My middle son tells me the biggest difference between the automotive forums for Mustang and Camaro is that the Camaro crowd is constantly comparing their cars to Mustangs, whereas the Mustang crowd rarely references Camaros at all. As a Chevy owner himself my son says, "the Ford guys just don't seem to have the need to justify their choices over and against another manufacturer's product; and our forums are just littered with this kind of unnecessary chest beating."

As a recent entrant into the micro four thirds format, I was soon reminded of my son's earlier comments, and I called and asked him to repeat it for this post. Because here at 4/3 Micro it seems to be, "we are not a step down from the full size Nikons and the Canons, we belong among the serious and the pros. See here! Just look at these images at X magnification!" Or whatever. I was even reading a guy here who stated how his previous "terrible framing" was corrected by the micro 4/3 format. Really? Another asks "ex-DSLR shooters" if mirrorless has improved their photography. And yet another even starts his thread, "I know I'm preaching to the converted. . ." Great! I've been looking for a church. And on it goes.

Look, I'm smiling. I'm not trying to call anybody out here or confront, which is why I didn't post links to these or any of the other similar comments/threads, you've seen them anyway. I'm just asking, why do some of the 4/3 micro crowd feel the need to justify and even evangelize rather than just appreciate, share, learn, and make images? As a still emerging format can we illustrate our format's differences to simply learn the tool better and not succumb to this need by some to persistently justify our choices over and against the other formats, sensors, and gear? Can we just be photographic enthusiasts with a new format and hardware and go make great stuff?

I'll be out West this Fall among a small group of mildly to significantly accomplished photographers. Going to take two E-M1's (if the 40-150 f/2.8 has been released by then), no Nikons. And if someone with his D4s and massive glass gets a chuckle, fantastic! It is kind of novel at this point.

So if you want to tell me in this community about your choices in order to provide a mutually beneficial learning environment great. But if you've also got this low-grade fever that makes you feel like you have to seek legitimacy for yourself or the rest of us, I don't need that; and frankly, unless you're dealing with a skeptical client, you don't either.

Still getting used to an EVF. Here's to progress.

Respectfully submitted

*How I got in to 4/3 micro: Some time ago I stumbled upon and read a very favorable review of the OM-E E-M1 at pcmagazine.com which led me read many other E-M1 reviews with interest. I subsequently rented an OM-E E-M1 from borrow lens.com for a 10 day test drive, then bought one.
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Photography is supposed to be an enjoyable activity. You can't justify one thing over an other because each person is an individual. Just look at what makes you happy and enjoy the moment.
Click to expand...
I agree photography is to be enjoyed. I some respects I learned alot about cameras etc here. In other respects I find I am now worrying about the tech end if photography way too much. Instead of going out shooting I'm checking out posts on shutter shock, soft lenses, Panasonic versus Olympus etc. The discussions on the forums trigger my obsessive tendencies I guess.
--
www.flickr.com

Anthony Gasparetto

Explore Anthony Gasparetto’s 485 photos on Flickr!
www.flickr.com www.flickr.com
 
Wu Jiaqiu said:
  1. turn computer off
  2. go outside
  3. take camera out of bag
  4. take pictures
  5. have a good day
couldn't resist :-D
Click to expand...
6. Rush back home, turn computer on, put SD card in, view pictures at 1:1 :D
 
I agree. I'm an analyst by nature and conflicting information must be weighed and resolved. I can obsess with information and become paralyzed by it. That's why when I bought the E-M1, I stopped the endless reading of reviews and did review of about 8 camera systems and how they related to my needs. Then I made the choice based on the data, and did not look back. Unfortunately reading this forum can cast doubt on the best decision! I had started out to move to FF, but in the end too much money to get everything I wanted, and doable with the OM-D system.
 
Here's the deal Paul, and I wholeheartedly agree with another poster that your photos are stunning. If I had the opportunities you do, I would not be using a M43 camera system. It'd be Canon or Nikon. Most certainly the 7D would still be in my possession. The problem with me has been the outlay of funds for the L lenses, and being married to the crop series of Canon cameras. In my world, do I take a vacation to shoot some of things you have, or buy a lense? Also, that vacation is with my wife, and photography--if I want to stay married--is secondary. It looked liked to get all the things I wanted in a camera, and weather sealing, and decent affordable choices in lens, and have a system that could go anywhere with me--and my wife--unobtrusively, the M43 was a good alternative, and the E-M1 is the latest and greatest, as well as its 12-40mm lens. On top of that I have the Panasonic lenses to choose from. So its a matter of money (vacations and other passions or lenses), and use (Africa--no, Vancouver--yes in May). But I am going to Cuba in October. So, if I started all over, for my style, Canon 5D Mark III and 24-105mm lens and I'm done. Didn't work out that way!
 
You analogy with cars doesn't make sense. Camaros weren't created to "be like Mustangs only smaller" or vice versa; it's just a different type of car. It accomplishes the same thing in nearly the same package.

Mirrorless was created specifically to be like larger cameras, but in a smaller package. So of course there will be more comparisons to other cameras on a m4/3 forum.

Go to the mirrorless Nikon or Canon forums and you'll see even more comparison threads/comments than you will here (mostly to m4/3!) because those platforms aren't mature yet.

In other words, you entire thesis is utterly flawed, and your question therefore nonsensical. I mean no offense, but your car analogy is comparing apples to oranges.
 
Before I tried one. I am already sold just by looking at the specs.
But when I tried one on a touch and try even sponsored by olympus.
I fell in love with the 5-axis image stabilization, The controls. The Build Quality.
+ other little things that they cram into the camera.

I only need to justify it to my self.
 
doug wever said:
Going to take two E-M1's (if the 40-150 f/2.8 has been released by then), no Nikons. And if someone with his D4s and massive glass gets a chuckle, fantastic!
Click to expand...
I'd get a chuckle at your massive glass too. ;)

I got into m43 for size and weight saving. I do most of my photography during backpacking and bike touring.
 
This forum is mild compared to the Fuji X Forum. They'll argue over what day it is. :-D
 
xMichaelx said:
You analogy with cars doesn't make sense. Camaros weren't created to "be like Mustangs only smaller" or vice versa; it's just a different type of car. It accomplishes the same thing in nearly the same package.

Mirrorless was created specifically to be like larger cameras, but in a smaller package. So of course there will be more comparisons to other cameras on a m4/3 forum.

Go to the mirrorless Nikon or Canon forums and you'll see even more comparison threads/comments than you will here (mostly to m4/3!) because those platforms aren't mature yet.

In other words, you entire thesis is utterly flawed, and your question therefore nonsensical. I mean no offense, but your car analogy is comparing apples to oranges.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry the meaning of the analogy was utterly lost on you. The point, as everyone else on here seems to get, is not the relative size of the vehicles, or anything about the vehicles at all, although that for some reason is your focus in your first paragraph. The analogy is instead about how certain vehicle users feel the need to seek assurance or legitimacy for their product choices through comparison, be it camera or car. What Kim Letkeman in his comment referred to as a, "buyer justification thread."

The act of comparing is not the issue at hand as your second and third paragraphs erroneously assumes. To oversimplify the original post, the issue instead is why we compare. Is it to learn or is it to justify; to share or to evangelize; to make good images or to stand proud with our equipment. So yes, we affirm comparisons which is not the point of the original post, but our point is to raise the issue of motives driving the comparison.
 
Element of truth no denying ....
BUT .. the REAL issue is HOW MANY 4/3 owners loiter in the CaNikSon forums and badmouth bricks and bazookas? The CaNikSon disciples feel it necessary to spruik their "mine's bigger than yours" here and some do it incessantly.
.
This may be because they are laid up from carrying all that stuff and can't take photos :)
.
I for one don't make a habit of it - unless I see something outrageous (like recently, a certain lens with 2.7 STOPS of vignetting wide open being hailed by THIS SITE as "having vignetting well under control" or words to that effect). I nearly spat my coffee - that's a TERRIBLE result.
.
Other than such complete idiocy, I could care less about how much weight they want to carry around, and how they justify it.
.
Had fun today shooting falling leaves as they are doing that on top of the world at the moment.

.
 

Translation: "According to a serious survey, 99.9% of males looking atthis picture will never notice the mouse on the donut!"
 

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Ben C Davis said:

Translation: "According to a serious survey, 99.9% of males looking atthis picture will never notice the mouse on the donut!"
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Doughnuts?

Oh. . . right.

--
...Bob, NYC
www.flickr.com

Bobo Hodls

Explore Bobo Hodls’s 5,812 photos on Flickr!
www.flickr.com www.flickr.com
.
"Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't." - Chief Dan George, Little Big Man
.
 
I liked your take on these forums .. and while I've not fully committed to the mFT yet I do use mine in a similar location.

The Photographer ......taken with the G5
The Photographer ......taken with the G5

I don't need proselytizing just a few longer macros and better ergonomics (haven't handled the M1 yet.)
 
Len_Gee said:
Agree with your OP.

I'd rather see people post their pictures taken with MFT (or any camera for that matter) than read all the technical blah blah blah those kind write of what MFT format can or cannot do.

But do you ever notice many never post any of their pictures here or in their DPR Gallery to back up what they say? Or have lots of camera gear but never post a single picture? What's up with that? ;)

As they say, " a picture is worth a thousand words".

Why not show your pictures, and what MFT is all about?

Enjoy trip and post some pictures of your trip when you get back. :)

Regards.
Click to expand...
Quite right, the MOST vocal trolls supposedly have camera gear but post ZERO pics.
.
MFT works, and works very well without being massive/heavy.
My pics at the links below.

--
Well designed gear performs better for longer than well marketed gear.
Odd that people complain a lens is not sharp enough,
and then proceed to make pics where 95% is OOF ..
General Pics:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/
Oly and other .. Gear test samples - even RB-67!:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Gear-tests
How DO OMDs cope with dim-light action and smoke?
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Performing-arts
 
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