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Using the A7r with flash

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I will say that if the resposiveness of the camera is as bad as you've described, I'd be disappointed too. And of course, it's your money and your camera so whether or not it meets your needs is only for you to decide. I would just take issue with the idea that the A7R is not suitable for basic child photography for the sole reason that it does not function well with your existing flashes.

I do have a question about the EXIF data in some of those pictures. I don't have a lot of experience with flash photography so maybe there is something for me to learn. I see shutter speeds of 1/20 and 1/25 at 180mm, in my mind that will never result in a useable picture no matter how quickly the camera responds. Is the short duration of flash supposed to make such shutter speed and focal length combinations possible? To my eye those pictures didn't just miss the moment, but also show considerable blur due to camera shake.
 
Puddleglum said:
I do have a question about the EXIF data in some of those pictures. I don't have a lot of experience with flash photography so maybe there is something for me to learn. I see shutter speeds of 1/20 and 1/25 at 180mm, in my mind that will never result in a useable picture no matter how quickly the camera responds. Is the short duration of flash supposed to make such shutter speed and focal length combinations possible? To my eye those pictures didn't just miss the moment, but also show considerable blur due to camera shake.
Click to expand...
 
Douglas Boyd said:
Puddleglum said:
I do have a question about the EXIF data in some of those pictures. I don't have a lot of experience with flash photography so maybe there is something for me to learn. I see shutter speeds of 1/20 and 1/25 at 180mm, in my mind that will never result in a useable picture no matter how quickly the camera responds. Is the short duration of flash supposed to make such shutter speed and focal length combinations possible? To my eye those pictures didn't just miss the moment, but also show considerable blur due to camera shake.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matthew_raehl/
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I agree completely with this. The 1/20th of a second happened because I was using TTL flash with Fill-In flash mode and aperture priority. That is the default mode for the camera and recommended Sony flashes. Fill-in mode in aperture priority lowers the shutter speed to expose the background. You have to watch carefully to make sure the shutter speed doesn't drop too far. In this case, I should have switched to manual mode to select a higher shutter speed. This is one of the reasons why I prefer Metz or Nikon flashes that have Auto mode.

By the way even with this flash combo and the A7r lag I was able to get many good pictures using a "point and spray" mode where you take many random pictures and select the good ones. Here is the facebook album from my trip. I'm not saying that I don't like the A7r, I'm just pointing out some of the issues to watch out for.

--
==Doug
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Something is very wrong here. If you use fill in flash (which is what you should be using) and aperture mode, the default shutter speed is 1/60, not 1/20. I've taken hundreds of photos using the A7 and HVL-F43M and never had this issue. Auto is not a good mode, you are letting the camera decide when to use flash. You want to use fill-in so it fires when you have the flash on. I've used Nikons for years exactly like this.

You need to find out why it is using 1/20. This is not correct. Some setting is messed up.
 
Clayton1985 said:
Douglas Boyd said:
In the end in order to enable basic photography I have added 2.5-3 pounds of stuff to my 1 pound A7r body: LA-EA4 with Minolta 24-105mm lens and HVL-58AM with adapter. This gives me fast focus, a good zoom lens, HSS sync, but no image stabilization in a package similar in size to DSLR.
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I've enabled what I consider "basic photography" on my A7r and I've added none of the above. If you wanted DSLR level PDAF, a 24-105 stabilized lens, 36mp, a more advanced flash system etc wouldn't you just buy a D800? You can't blame anyone but yourself for trying to convert the A7r into a D800.
Click to expand...
Wow, that seems a bit harsh...

The fact is, the OP has had to go to these lengths on a camera costing as much as most FF DSLR's as Sony offers no alternatives.

Instead of trying to belittle the OP, why not lament the fact that Sony has put out a product that does not perform in any category that is measurable (pricing, focus speed, focus tracking, size(after having to adapt lenses and adaptors), flash capability, system depth.

He wasn't trying to convert the A7r into a D800, he was simply trying to work around the many limitations of this system.

At this point my answer to you is that based on your parameters the A7/r is no better than the RX1 in it's current state.
 
Minomaniac said:
osv said:
Minomaniac said:
You can use the Metz 58-AF 2 flash. The flash is only available for the Minolta hotshoe, so you need the Sony adapter to use it on A7/r. The Metz has an auto mode where it doesn't fire a pre flash, so there's shorter delay and no sleepy eye effect.

The metering is achieved by a little photodiode in the flash and works astonishing well. Better than TTL metering in some situations. One limitation is that the auto mode does not support HSS shooting.

The flash is fully Sony TTL/HSS compatible and can even be used as a ratio controller for wireless operation. Another plus is, it doesn't overheat. The icing on the cake is, that it is considerable cheaper than the Sony offerings with comparable quality.

I use the first iteration of the Metz alongside with a Sony HVL-58, the HVL-F20AM and a Minolta 3600HS and I'm very happy with the Metz.
Click to expand...
thanks for that feedback on the metz, really appreciate it.

save $150 with the metz over the sony f60m... and it has a metal hotshoe? what's not to like? why would someone want to buy the sony over the metz?

hmm, lets see... i need to fire the flash at 1/2,500th, so the only way that will work is with preflash??

--
dan
Click to expand...
I just tested the Metz 58 AF-1 on my A7r.You can set the exposure from 30s to 1/160s in the auto mode of the flash. It then fires no preflash. That also works with the flash tilted up.

For shorter shutter speeds the flash has to be set to TTl/HSS and then it fires the preflash.

You have to use the adapter for the Minolta hotshoe with the Metz and you lose the ability of the Sony to rotate the head sideways. The Metz in return brings an extra reflector that can be used when the flash is tilted up.

When the first model of the Metz came to market, there was a lot of discussion about it on the Alpha forums, because it solved the lazy eye problem many people discovered on the Sony A100.

So if you want to avoid preflash, the Metz seems to be the best solution.
Click to expand...
It amazes me the amount of work arounds Sony users will go to in order to have a somewhat working system.

I ran into a gentleman the other day shooting with a Sony A7r at a restaurant and the camera looked like an erector set with the adaptor,lens and flash, all second party product of course.

At this point I have not found a compelling reason to go to the A7/r over any of the Canon/Nikon offerings...maybe this will change in the future as the system (if) matures, but it seems that in it's present state, these cameras offer very little over the RX1, and nothing over the other brands once you attach all of the necessary items to make it a working system.
 
Bamboojled said:
Bamboojled said:
...
Click to expand...
It amazes me the amount of work arounds Sony users will go to in order to have a somewhat working system.

I ran into a gentleman the other day shooting with a Sony A7r at a restaurant and the camera looked like an erector set with the adaptor,lens and flash, all second party product of course.

At this point I have not found a compelling reason to go to the A7/r over any of the Canon/Nikon offerings...maybe this will change in the future as the system (if) matures, but it seems that in it's present state, these cameras offer very little over the RX1, and nothing over the other brands once you attach all of the necessary items to make it a working system.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. The A7 or A7r with the FE 55 is small camera setup that handles most situations. For flash you can add a Sony HVL-F20M or HVL-43M. Certainly bigger than an RX1 but still pretty small compared to most DSLRs.

But for moving subjects, I agree a DSLR is the way to go. No mirrorless is there yet.
 
Bamboojled said:
Minomaniac said:
osv said:
Minomaniac said:
You can use the Metz 58-AF 2 flash. The flash is only available for the Minolta hotshoe, so you need the Sony adapter to use it on A7/r. The Metz has an auto mode where it doesn't fire a pre flash, so there's shorter delay and no sleepy eye effect.

The metering is achieved by a little photodiode in the flash and works astonishing well. Better than TTL metering in some situations. One limitation is that the auto mode does not support HSS shooting.

The flash is fully Sony TTL/HSS compatible and can even be used as a ratio controller for wireless operation. Another plus is, it doesn't overheat. The icing on the cake is, that it is considerable cheaper than the Sony offerings with comparable quality.

I use the first iteration of the Metz alongside with a Sony HVL-58, the HVL-F20AM and a Minolta 3600HS and I'm very happy with the Metz.
Click to expand...
thanks for that feedback on the metz, really appreciate it.

save $150 with the metz over the sony f60m... and it has a metal hotshoe? what's not to like? why would someone want to buy the sony over the metz?

hmm, lets see... i need to fire the flash at 1/2,500th, so the only way that will work is with preflash??
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
osv said:
hmm, lets see... i need to fire the flash at 1/2,500th, so the only way that will work is with preflash??
Click to expand...
No, that's a false conclusion. Set the flash to manual output HSS and no pre-flash is necessary. If you want HSS and autoflash, then yes - by its nature, HSS autoflash requires a pre-flash exposure evaluation in order to work.
 
Last edited:
pre-flash is so slow that you have time to see it ???
 
laguire said:
What about third party flashes designed for the minolta shoe like the metz flashes? Not sure they have any with the latest Sony iso shoe, but couldn't you use the ones made for the old minolta flash shoe with the Sony adapter? I have an old metz but still don't have the adapter to try it out. I know I used to use the auto mode on it.
Click to expand...
What was the advantage for Sony to switch to the smartshoe design? I researched this for days trying to figure out what would work for radio triggers and flash on the NEX-7 alone and wouldn't want to go through that effort again if I switched cameras. There were a plethera of flash manufacturers that supported the old Minolta design. Now you've got a crapshoot of what MIGHT work with the newer design.

From an article:

"After years of using the Minolta hotshoe, Sony finally decided to switch over to the standard hotshoe with the Sony Nex 6. The problem? Despite calling it the “Multi Interface Shoe” or even sometimes calling it the “Universal hotshoe”…. it certainly is not. Nex 6 users are having all kinds of problems finding ways to use standard flash accessories on their systems."
 
PVCdroid said:
laguire said:
What about third party flashes designed for the minolta shoe like the metz flashes? Not sure they have any with the latest Sony iso shoe, but couldn't you use the ones made for the old minolta flash shoe with the Sony adapter? I have an old metz but still don't have the adapter to try it out. I know I used to use the auto mode on it.
Click to expand...
What was the advantage for Sony to switch to the smartshoe design? I researched this for days trying to figure out what would work for radio triggers and flash on the NEX-7 alone and wouldn't want to go through that effort again if I switched cameras. There were a plethera of flash manufacturers that supported the old Minolta design. Now you've got a crapshoot of what MIGHT work with the newer design.

...
Click to expand...
The problem was every online reviewer took them to task for using the Minolta hotshoe and not using a "standard" one. This was the way to silence all those criticisms.
 
SQLGuy said:
SQLGuy said:
...
Click to expand...
What we clearly have here is a disagreement about what is required for "basic photography." I've taken a few hundred shots so far, many of which I like a lot, using only the A7 itself and the kit zoom. I started photography about 35 years ago, but I've never used high-speed synch flash, and, while I can see some places it would be nice, it's apparently not indispensable to me.

If high power, HSS, flash, with auto capabilities, is part of his definition of "basic photography" he should have used that as part of his criteria when selecting a camera. To state that an A7/R is not the ideal for flash photography is accurate. Nikon's lighting system is probably the best in the business right now. To reach the conclusion that an A7/R offers very little over an RX-1 because it's not ideal for flash photography is, on the other hand, pretty much absurd.

--
A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)
Click to expand...
The OP is clearly doing something (or many things) wrong. There is no way the camera in aperture mode is going to be using 1/20 second for flash shots unless something has been messed up. Heck, I can't even find a way to do this. It uses 1/60 of a second as you would expect. I've taken hundreds of shots doing this.

The whole assertion you need auto mode for flash is ridiculous. I've used Nikons for years, and it's not auto mode. He is getting confused on very basic things. Auto for the A7 and NEX cameras means the camera can decide not to fire the flash depending the light. A Nikon doesn't do this in Aperture mode.

While the Nikons I've used do have better flash support, the wireless ratio system on Sony flashes is workable for complex setups. However if you can't get a good flash shot with one flash on this camera you are doing something very wrong. I've found the flash exposure system on the A7 to be excellent. Much better and more predictable than Olympus mirrorless cameras for example and almost as good as Nikon.
 
Ok, thanks

so why are so many persons complaining about shutter lag of that pre-flash if it is instant ?

so no shutter lag in TTL mode ?
 
le_alain said:
Ok, thanks

so why are so many persons complaining about shutter lag of that pre-flash if it is instant ?

so no shutter lag in TTL mode ?
Click to expand...
On the A7 there is no perceptible lag. I don't know about the A7r.
 
Bamboojled said:
Clayton1985 said:
Douglas Boyd said:
In the end in order to enable basic photography I have added 2.5-3 pounds of stuff to my 1 pound A7r body: LA-EA4 with Minolta 24-105mm lens and HVL-58AM with adapter. This gives me fast focus, a good zoom lens, HSS sync, but no image stabilization in a package similar in size to DSLR.
Click to expand...
I've enabled what I consider "basic photography" on my A7r and I've added none of the above. If you wanted DSLR level PDAF, a 24-105 stabilized lens, 36mp, a more advanced flash system etc wouldn't you just buy a D800? You can't blame anyone but yourself for trying to convert the A7r into a D800.
Click to expand...
Wow, that seems a bit harsh...

The fact is, the OP has had to go to these lengths on a camera costing as much as most FF DSLR's as Sony offers no alternatives.

Instead of trying to belittle the OP, why not lament the fact that Sony has put out a product that does not perform in any category that is measurable (pricing, focus speed, focus tracking, size(after having to adapt lenses and adaptors), flash capability, system depth.

He wasn't trying to convert the A7r into a D800, he was simply trying to work around the many limitations of this system.

At this point my answer to you is that based on your parameters the A7/r is no better than the RX1 in it's current state.
Click to expand...
No, it's fair comment. If he wanted all the other stuff, he's chosen the wrong camera. He wasn't trying to belittle the earlier poster, just pointing out that he needs to accept the A7R for what it is, and that he has had no issues, as I haven't (although desperate for a native IS lens!)
 
SQLGuy said:
Bamboojled said:
Minomaniac said:
osv said:
Minomaniac said:
You can use the Metz 58-AF 2 flash. The flash is only available for the Minolta hotshoe, so you need the Sony adapter to use it on A7/r. The Metz has an auto mode where it doesn't fire a pre flash, so there's shorter delay and no sleepy eye effect.

The metering is achieved by a little photodiode in the flash and works astonishing well. Better than TTL metering in some situations. One limitation is that the auto mode does not support HSS shooting.

The flash is fully Sony TTL/HSS compatible and can even be used as a ratio controller for wireless operation. Another plus is, it doesn't overheat. The icing on the cake is, that it is considerable cheaper than the Sony offerings with comparable quality.

I use the first iteration of the Metz alongside with a Sony HVL-58, the HVL-F20AM and a Minolta 3600HS and I'm very happy with the Metz.
Click to expand...
thanks for that feedback on the metz, really appreciate it.

save $150 with the metz over the sony f60m... and it has a metal hotshoe? what's not to like? why would someone want to buy the sony over the metz?

hmm, lets see... i need to fire the flash at 1/2,500th, so the only way that will work is with preflash??

--
dan
Click to expand...
I just tested the Metz 58 AF-1 on my A7r.You can set the exposure from 30s to 1/160s in the auto mode of the flash. It then fires no preflash. That also works with the flash tilted up.

For shorter shutter speeds the flash has to be set to TTl/HSS and then it fires the preflash.

You have to use the adapter for the Minolta hotshoe with the Metz and you lose the ability of the Sony to rotate the head sideways. The Metz in return brings an extra reflector that can be used when the flash is tilted up.

When the first model of the Metz came to market, there was a lot of discussion about it on the Alpha forums, because it solved the lazy eye problem many people discovered on the Sony A100.

So if you want to avoid preflash, the Metz seems to be the best solution.
Click to expand...
It amazes me the amount of work arounds Sony users will go to in order to have a somewhat working system.

I ran into a gentleman the other day shooting with a Sony A7r at a restaurant and the camera looked like an erector set with the adaptor,lens and flash, all second party product of course.

At this point I have not found a compelling reason to go to the A7/r over any of the Canon/Nikon offerings...maybe this will change in the future as the system (if) matures, but it seems that in it's present state, these cameras offer very little over the RX1, and nothing over the other brands once you attach all of the necessary items to make it a working system.
Click to expand...
Have you ever seen the SLR attachment Leitz used to make for the Leica screw-mount rangefinders? I think it was to allow for verification of close focus during macro photography, since a rangefinder is only usable for more distant subjects.

Anyway, the reason I bring it up is that it's an interesting and creative contraption, but one could very reasonably argue that, if you want to do macro work, just get an SLR in the first place.
Click to expand...
I remember that accessory, I also remember that it was made almost 50 years ago, and I am also aware that Leica had a full stable of lenses and a robust system above and beyond what is available for the Sony A7/r.

Interestingly, the point you made regarding that old Leica accessory was to mount other Leica lenses and get accurate parallax correction, not to mount other manufacturers lenses unlike Sony.
SQLGuy said:
If you want to shoot at 35mm FL only, the RX-1 is certainly a great camera. If you want to shoot at other focal lengths, the A7/R has already thoroughly trounced it.
Click to expand...
I think that trounced is a stretch as the only other lenses available natively are the 55 and the kit Zoom (which is rather weak optically). In the same focal length you have the 35 on the RX1 which is faster optically to the A7 offering.

If you are talking about mounting other branded lenses via adaptor, you are going back to the original complaint of the OP, which is that the camera is not much smaller and offers far less (AF, Image stabilization) than a DSLR offering.
SQLGuy said:
What we clearly have here is a disagreement about what is required for "basic photography." I've taken a few hundred shots so far, many of which I like a lot, using only the A7 itself and the kit zoom. I started photography about 35 years ago, but I've never used high-speed synch flash, and, while I can see some places it would be nice, it's apparently not indispensable to me.
Click to expand...
So based on your above statement I conclude that the ability to have a slight zoom range over the RX1 is sufficient for "basic photography".
SQLGuy said:
If high power, HSS, flash, with auto capabilities, is part of his definition of "basic photography" he should have used that as part of his criteria when selecting a camera. To state that an A7/R is not the ideal for flash photography is accurate. Nikon's lighting system is probably the best in the business right now. To reach the conclusion that an A7/R offers very little over an RX-1 because it's not ideal for flash photography is, on the other hand, pretty much absurd.

--
A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)
Click to expand...
 
Brian Caslis said:
le_alain said:
Ok, thanks

so why are so many persons complaining about shutter lag of that pre-flash if it is instant ?

so no shutter lag in TTL mode ?
Click to expand...
On the A7 there is no perceptible lag. I don't know about the A7r.
Click to expand...
I have no lag, although I am using Pocketwizards and Canon flashes, not out of choice, just that Sony cant organise a P!$$up in a brewery!
 
<the <op write this:

The biggest problem I have found in using the A7r is the long shutter delay which is even longer when used with a flash in TTL mode. This long delay also encourages eye blinking from the preflash.

I can't imagine eye binking from the pre*flash, so I asked my precedent questions .

ON nikon, TTL pre-flash is instant. Not here ? or instant?

confused, seem instant for some, and blinking eyes for others !!!
 
Last edited:
John A Clark said:
Brian Caslis said:
le_alain said:
Ok, thanks

so why are so many persons complaining about shutter lag of that pre-flash if it is instant ?

so no shutter lag in TTL mode ?
Click to expand...
On the A7 there is no perceptible lag. I don't know about the A7r.
Click to expand...
I have no lag, although I am using Pocketwizards and Canon flashes, not out of choice, just that Sony cant organise a P!$$up in a brewery!

--
Beauty is only a light switch away ...
www.clarkfamily.com.au
Click to expand...
I have no perceptible lag with the A7 and the Sony HVL-F43M flash. While there is lots Sony could do better, I find the complaining about flash in this thread laughable. Those images the OP finally posted are indeed terrible but there is no way the camera if used properly is going to be shooting 1/20 in aperture mode with flash on. That is user error, plain and simple.
 
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