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The 7D or 70D Dilemma

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Sassylass

Sassylass

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Which is it to be, about to upgrade from my 40D!?

I mostly go out for nature/birds/wildlife shots,

so been considering the 7D for quite sometime!

My gear consists of mostly telephoto lenses, but

just placed an order for the 300mm f/4L & shall

get an extender for that lens at later date.
 
digitalcuriosity said:
Alastair Norcross said:
Peter Marchant said:
Bangers and Mash said:
Are you referring to jpeg images? If you are shooting RAW, that's not an issue. Perhaps the jpeg engine of the 7D is better, but if one wants to produce a great image with a little time spent with PP, then why concern yourself with how a jpeg image looks. IMO, if one wants a good jpeg image, then buy a P&S. Images taken with cameras like the 7D come to life with RAW. So why bother with jpeg
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Well, call me old-fashioned, but I was brought up with film, and Kodachrome at that. The idea of faffing around with computer processing after the event is alien to me. A little careful thought before pressing the button (and digital cameras offer far more options than film) and you should have the photo to be proud of - in jpeg or whatever.

Once a film is loaded, the ISO is set in stone at 64 (with KR anyway) and it's only good for daylight unless a filter is attached, but it could still produce unsurpassed images. GOOD photography requires a little care at the time, not haphazardly snapping a bad shot and massaging it into an acceptable one later. Just a view!

Peter
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I was also brought up with film. I bought 100 foot rolls of black and white and manually loaded my own film cartridges. I did all my own B&W processing, and also quite a bit of colour processing. I would never go back to that. If you have a modern DSLR and don't take advantage of what modern software, like Lightroom or Photoshop, can do for you, you are crippling your own potential. I only shoot JPEG for sports, when I know I will be taking several hundred shots in a couple of hours. For everything else, I shoot RAW. I have Lightroom set up so that I can apply a preset to the first of a series of shots, and then sync the settings to the rest. Often, I don't need to change any other settings for individual shots. Sometimes I do. It's just a matter of getting the best out of the shot. It has nothing to do with "getting it right the first time". People who say this kind of thing aren't old-fashioned, they're simply trying to rationalize their unwillingness to use all the photographic tools at their disposal. I've heard the sort of nonsense you spout above about "a little care at the time" from a few people. It never ceases to be nonsense. If you are content with whatever JPEG's you can get out of your camera, fine. Don't disparage those of us who are willing to use more of the potential of digital photography. It has nothing to do with rescuing a bad shot, no matter how much you might pretend that it does.

--
Alastair
http://anorcross.smugmug.com
Equipment in profile
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I am not as you have posted " disparaging" anyone from doing anything they wish with their pictures. I am just stating my thoughts on using these "great" software programs,and my thoughts are it is changing what the camera has done. So in my mind you can use a much cheaper camera system,and get the same results using the software programs.

I also was a user of film did B&W processing and made color slides,what a mess them chemicals were,and how quickly they needed replacing. I sure don't miss all them days, and I sure don't miss finding all those under and over exposed pictures,and the ones just out of focus.
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Are you posting under 2 usernames? Your response is a little confusing as this is your first reply in the sub-thread, unless you are also posting as Peter Merchant, which is whom Alastair was responding to.

Anyway, I quite disagree that anyone can shoot the same scene with a cheap camera and get the same results by using PP. Maybe in very good light in a low dynamic range, static scene. However that's not the kind of photography most DSLR users get their system to shoot. My Canon SX50 has a greater reach than my DSLR with even my longest lens and a telextender. For a superzoom compact camera the IQ is very good but it can't touch what my DSLR can do with birds in flight, nor is it even tolerable in low light scenes - regardless of any amount of PP.

Again, if you're happy shooting jpg that's fine. I would never be so bold as to tell anyone they must shoot raw, though I will suggest the advantages. But don't try to tell raw shooters that all we're doing is "rescuing" poor images - that's for people that don't know how to properly expose the image to begin with. What we're after is preserving as much range & detail as possible with a properly exposed image.

Mark
 
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dave vivich
Can you put your finger on what is it about the 70D which explains why you have more keepers over when you used the 7D?
 
What you said, In the hands of a pro, about RAW. It takes hundreds of hours to become proficient at post processing RAW files. To me in JPEG. The 7D is a little over saturated and I crank the saturation down a few clicks.. A little post and JPEG can be very decent. R>J
 
What a great discussion to be having, 7D or 70D. Two excellent cameras with some differences between them that should make it possible to get just the right one. I own a 7D and bought it used for less than a 70D would cost me, and I'm more than happy with it; for others the 70D does more of what they need.

Two classics to choose from - and I can't wait to see the 7D Mk II, which I believe is on the way.
 
riknash said:
dave vivich
Can you put your finger on what is it about the 70D which explains why you have more keepers over when you used the 7D?
Click to expand...
I really can't.

What I can say is that I have with both the 7D and 70D, gone out and taken basically test shots of real world stuff.

I would then go home, load them on the computer and look at the files and just count how many of them were in focus.

When I did this with the 7D, I'd get roughly 55% in focus. With the 70D, I'm around 65%. Depending on how you want to say it, I'm getting 10% more shots in focus, or 18% more of my shots are in focus with the 70D over the 7D.

I'm not setting it up any differently than I do any of my other cameras, so I'm guessing that Canon has somehow improved how it focuses. Or maybe they've just simplified it. I don't know, I don't care. What I do know is that the 70D works better for me.

One of my real world shots at 50% size, cropped, no adjustments.

Some will say that this isn't a great shot. I know. It's a test shot.

Center focus point on the eye. 206mm at f2.8, thin DOF. Backlit subject. A bunch of grasses poking up, waving around. All those things add up to a very good test shot.

Screen%20Shot%202013-12-31%20at%2012.09.36%20AM.png




The whole picture. (just a screen capture)



Screen%20Shot%202013-12-31%20at%2012.37.06%20AM.png






davev

--
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs
http://davev.smugmug.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davev/
 
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Everyone forgets why the 7d is still Canon's best APS-C camera. It is the 100% viewfinder doh!

plus the following 3 custom functions(I use one for icky indoor flourescent light, one for action/moving subjects and one for dusk/dawn landscape shooting), great ergonomics, multiple functions wb/af/metering hard buttons, Dual Axis Level, did I say chunky buttons?
 
Member said:
I'm not setting it up any differently than I do any of my other cameras, so I'm guessing that Canon has somehow improved how it focuses.
Click to expand...
+1 I noticed the change starting with the T4i, and noted exactly the same thing that Canon must have changed the AF. Really a remarkable improvement, and results in many more keepers.

R2
 
Sassylass said:
Which is it to be, about to upgrade from my 40D!?
Click to expand...
So you are used to the interface of the 40D. The user interface on the 7D is very close to that - much closer than the one on the 70D. The latter is lacking severely.
Sassylass said:
I mostly go out for nature/birds/wildlife shots,
Click to expand...
Much like I do, add sports for me as well...
Sassylass said:
so been considering the 7D for quite sometime!
Click to expand...
I haven't been considering the 7D, I have bought it the moment it became available.

The 70D has some severe downsides for your intended use. In wildlife shots i practically use (except for BIF) only Spot-AF, which is unavailable on the 70D. The 7D has the larger buffer, faster frame rate, faster memory card interface (you can continue to use your memory cards from the 40D, it's a better situation in terms of backup as well), far superior viewfinder and a far less crammed user interface - it doesn't have the Wifi and touch screen nor swivel mechanism, but those are more of a nuisance in the field rather than being helpful...
 
WilbaW said:
Sassylass, please be aware that Karl expresses extreme prejudice against the 60D and 70D and his views are not representative of the majority of users.
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What is supposed to be prejeduce in what I wrote! It's fact that in wildlife photography you need the spot AF! The camera is faster, it has a bigger buffer! That's all fact!
 
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
WilbaW said:
Sassylass, please be aware that Karl expresses extreme prejudice against the 60D and 70D and his views are not representative of the majority of users.
Click to expand...
What is supposed to be prejeduce in what I wrote! It's fact that in wildlife photography you need the spot AF! The camera is faster, it has a bigger buffer! That's all fact!
Click to expand...
 
Peter Marchant said:
Karl Gnter Wnsch said:
WilbaW said:
Sassylass, please be aware that Karl expresses extreme prejudice against the 60D and 70D and his views are not representative of the majority of users.
Click to expand...
What is supposed to be prejeduce in what I wrote! It's fact that in wildlife photography you need the spot AF! The camera is faster, it has a bigger buffer! That's all fact!
Click to expand...
Am I not right in thinking that the 70D DOES HAVE spot metering?

Owners of a particular camera seem to have an unwarranted bias towards that model - a natural human trait. However they often know that model inside out and know very little about the performance of a much newer model that they've probably never taken a shot with - maybe even they've just read fellow non-users grumbles about it! By all means wax lyrical about your own camera but it's not right to rubbish a very good and much more recent alternative model.
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There is a difference between Spot AF and Spot metering.

The 70D is a great camera, but, when swinging big lenses for sports and wildlife photography I think the 7D still holds an edge.
 

TTMartin said:
There is a difference between Spot AF and Spot metering.

The 70D is a great camera, but, when swinging big lenses for sports and wildlife photography I think the 7D still holds an edge.
Click to expand...
Take a look at the 70D Manual (unless you already have a 70D). On P103 and 105 you'll find that this camera offers "Single Point AF" as well as 2 other AF options. P105 describes how to select which of the 19 focus points you want to use. Alternatively, if using Live View you can simply touch the screen to select the spot where you want the camera to focus. Try doing that with a 7D!

Peter
 
Peter Marchant said:
TTMartin said:
There is a difference between Spot AF and Spot metering.

The 70D is a great camera, but, when swinging big lenses for sports and wildlife photography I think the 7D still holds an edge.
Click to expand...
Take a look at the 70D Manual (unless you already have a 70D). On P103 and 105 you'll find that this camera offers "Single Point AF" as well as 2 other AF options. P105 describes how to select which of the 19 focus points you want to use. Alternatively, if using Live View you can simply touch the screen to select the spot where you want the camera to focus. Try doing that with a 7D!
Click to expand...
Dude the 70D is a great camera!

But, the 7D offers not only the single point AF and other AF modes of the 70D, but, also has Spot AF and AF Point Expansion.

Yes, touch screens are great, but, for sports and BIF photography even the 70D's liveview AF still doesn't compare to its or other cameras PDAF.

The 70D is the most well rounded APS-C camera available, it does everything well. But, in certain categories the 7D still beats it. The larger grip and size of the 7D is an advantage when using very large telephoto lenses. Add to that the larger buffer and frame rate and the 7D is still a superior sports and wildlife camera.

If you want the best APS-C camera for general use no doubt get the 70D.

For the OPs question the about which is better for sports and wildlife the 7D still has the advantage.
 
Peter Marchant said:
Am I not right in thinking that the 70D DOES HAVE spot metering?
Click to expand...
It's not about spot metering - it's absence would be completely inconsequential as the iFCL metering of current cameras makes it absolutely obsolete - it's the absence of spot AF!
 
Peter Marchant said:
Take a look at the 70D Manual (unless you already have a 70D). On P103 and 105 you'll find that this camera offers "Single Point AF" as well as 2 other AF options.
Click to expand...
Which the 7D offers as well - but the 7D offers Spot AF which significantly reduces the size of the selected AF point and AF point expansion which significantly enlarges the size of the selected AF point! And it is those two AF point modes which in wildlife and sports photography are the most invaluable ones - having all 5 modes available over the past years since the 7D was released the spot AF mode was used for about 30% and the AF point expansion for about 40% - these modes were thus used for more than 2/3rd of my photos and they are missing from the 70D and can not in any way be replaced by uses of the other modes as they perform tasks that these simply cannot fulfill!
 
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