yes
I wouldn't see it as low just slower than those above but then like the da*55 above it a long throw lens and has to be slower due to accuracy required for intended use.
i.e da* 300 is likely to be shooting 25M+ where you talking DoF in feet, but the da*55 and da* 16-50 are most likely to be used into 1-3m range were DoF is very much inches and even focused on nose not eye will be noticeable.
It woudl be a serious indictment of Pentax if short range portrait lens whipped Telephotos butts in the AF stakes
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the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
- Thread starter paulkienitz
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On the lighter side we were discusing this over on Pentax User (UK) and Jules came up with
" It's the tracking rather thsn out and out focus speed that matters, if something travels from infinity to you in under two seconds, it'll likely kill you..."
That pretty much distills where Pentax issues are and it not AF speed but tracking ability.
P.s in the case of the 50-135 that would be 1.3 seconds to live
paulkienitz
Veteran Member
Well, that was my point.
Here's one way to think of it: the "pro" and "semipro" tiers are not really just a vertical separation of best vs almost-best. They are two different markets: journalists' cameras (D4) and artists' cameras (D800). One's tuned for action and the other is tuned for landscapes and studios. Now if you want an artist's camera and can't afford a D800, you can get a D600, and if you can't afford that you can get a consumer camera. Likewise, if you can't afford a 5D3, then a 6D will give you what you need, and a 70D if that's still too much. But if you want a journalist's camera, and you can't afford a D4... there is no lower model to step back to. That's a serious gap in the lineup.
srock
Leading Member
Fascinating thread. Alot like the pixel peepers at 100%. I'm not the 1% of you worrying whether a single feature is going to lure in more c/n and make pentax the leader(validating our choice!), I'm the 99% who buy cameras- I bought the k10d, the k7 and will be buying a k-3. I'm an enthusiast, I have a variety of photo interests and shoot many different kinds of subjects. I'm in a large photo club where I am in a distinct minority. Everyone shoots Canon or Nikon except for me and perhaps 1 or two others. What draws me to Pentax and keeps me there is the solid construction, weather sealing, in body shake reduction, and enormous feature set for enormous value.$1299 for the feature set of the k-3, or $899 for the k5ii is a fantastic value compared with C or N. Yes, I give up the lens map of C and N, but for my uses, I have more than enough choices. Yes I am aggravated each time a 3rd party manufacturer makes his device available for C or N or Sony, but not pentax- but I deal.
I have the same reaction each time I pick up a new Pentax- I am amazed whatI can get for the price. I then go and compare against the competition and cant get a similar product for anywhere near the cost.
I would love to see Pentax put a effort into expanding its dealers in the US. The average buyer wont unless he can put his hands on the product and handle it. Picking up a Pentax and a competing N or C is a compelling argument for Pentax.
I too fret that Pentax and whoever owns it at the time will find the market too tough, but I buy cameras for now.
As long as Pentax/asahi/Hoya/Ricoh keeps putting out high quality products at high value to the photo enthusiast there will be a vigorous market for them. Hopefully Pentax/Ricoh will have the resources and smarts to properly market its product. If so, the camera will sell itself.
Steve
I have the same reaction each time I pick up a new Pentax- I am amazed whatI can get for the price. I then go and compare against the competition and cant get a similar product for anywhere near the cost.
I would love to see Pentax put a effort into expanding its dealers in the US. The average buyer wont unless he can put his hands on the product and handle it. Picking up a Pentax and a competing N or C is a compelling argument for Pentax.
I too fret that Pentax and whoever owns it at the time will find the market too tough, but I buy cameras for now.
As long as Pentax/asahi/Hoya/Ricoh keeps putting out high quality products at high value to the photo enthusiast there will be a vigorous market for them. Hopefully Pentax/Ricoh will have the resources and smarts to properly market its product. If so, the camera will sell itself.
Steve
From what I have read so far regarding the AF, the K3 is a great step forward for Pentax, no doubt about that. However, to get a serious competition towards the big two what this thread is about, it needs more than just a fast AF on the camera, it needs fast focusing lenses allowing to take advantage of it.
When trying to capture the critical moments in wildlife photography using 8 FPS is still too slow for capture the scene I would like to catch. I rely more on timing to take these kind of photographs in 1/8 of a second a lot of things can happen just watch a video at 30 FPS frame by frame and see how much action you miss.
You also have to consider tracking, fast AF will not help you if the camera cannot predict where the subject is going to be next frame.
Hey John
I was just following the thread and some interesting and valid points being made by you and Dom. I'm hoping that the K3's AF is as good as the current Canikon cams (7D/D300s), so if its fast, accurate and reliable then its another option to choose from. I'm watching with interest to see how the K3 AF performs with fast moving subjects like road cyclists at full pelt.
I recently watched some AF tests with the Canon 1DX vs D4 and the accuracy and speed of both cam's AF systems just blew me away - the tests got me thinking how poor Olys E3's AF system was and how easy it was for the tester to switch between both cam's and be 100% confident with them. I know its the entire system - body and lenses that are allowing that kind of performance.
Harj
I was just following the thread and some interesting and valid points being made by you and Dom. I'm hoping that the K3's AF is as good as the current Canikon cams (7D/D300s), so if its fast, accurate and reliable then its another option to choose from. I'm watching with interest to see how the K3 AF performs with fast moving subjects like road cyclists at full pelt.
I recently watched some AF tests with the Canon 1DX vs D4 and the accuracy and speed of both cam's AF systems just blew me away - the tests got me thinking how poor Olys E3's AF system was and how easy it was for the tester to switch between both cam's and be 100% confident with them. I know its the entire system - body and lenses that are allowing that kind of performance.
Harj
Thank you, I cover enough sport events to know what is important, here a few I took last Sunday: http://www.pbase.com/tcom/swisscup2013 .
Harj - unfortunately the point Dominique and I are making is you can't match the Canon and Nikon performance without the lenses to go with it. Focus performance is shared by both components. And the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. So, even if one link has been strengthened - the AF algorithms - the other link (lenses) still must be addressed.
Again, I would expect existing Pentaxians to be very happy as they chose the system for other reasons and this is progress. But if your main goal is action shooting they're still lacking the lenses. Of course, if the high end OEM lenses from Canon and Nikon are outside of your budget anyway that's a different story. I just believe people who haven't used the high end Canon/Nikon OEM lenses underestimate the differences between them and third party. For example, I have a sigma 120-300 2.8. Great lens. Focus performance compared to Canon 300mm 2.8 just isn't there. Especially in lower light.
And my point is unless the bodies can use the Lens it's irrelevant how fast the lens could be.
I'll say again as HSM lens do not operate faster than SDM on Pentax the limiting factor must currently be the body or Pentax Safox system.
If its the body then that can be fixed (k3 or later ) but if it safox no amount of high speed gizmos in a lens will make the system any quicker.
Until Sigma HSM glass outperforms SDM Pentax glass the fast 'sports' lens from Pentax is nothing but an impossible pipe dream.
I see no evidence that the k3 has addressed RAW speed (tracking yes)
fakuryu
Senior Member
I think this might happen sooner than later, AFAIK the new upcoming DA 20-40 f2.8-4 Limited WR has a brand new motor which could trickle down the line.
The problem here is: I do not believe with today's modern in-lens focus systems you can treat them as separate entities. For example: for whatever reason Sigma seems to have more issues reverse engineering focus for Canon rather than Nikon. A number of people reported issues, for example, with the 35mm 1.4 on 5dIII body. Those same issues didn't seem to appear on APS-C bodies in Canon's lineup or in Nikon. So, if Pentax changes things in-body, you may or may not see all the benefit with existing third-party lenses that relied on reverse-engineering. So, you may need lenses designed after the latest SAFOX to know for sure.
paulkienitz
Veteran Member
But that can cease to be true once the body passes a certain speed threshold. The limitation can be transferred to the lens.
Putting your experience together with what other people are saying, it sounds to me like HSM is undistinguished in speed just like SDM is, and neither is a good measure of what the system might be capable of with a new motor.
The point of this thread was never that a body by itself would overturn C and N -- just that it's addressing a market they're neglecting, and if we follow up with lens motors well matched to the body, we have a chance to make a real dent.
NancyP
Veteran Member
A second item of interest is the really robust water/weather proofing that Pentax offers. I have toyed with the idea of getting a Pentax DSLR and 300mm waterproof lens for bird photography from a kayak. I have seen several videos of kayakers dipping their Pentax into the stream and then firing off some shots.
fakuryu
Senior Member
I'm brand agnostic and happily shoot with Canon gear... I have an appreciation of what Pentax offers, but I don't think either Canon or Nikon are exactly frightened of Pentax; a couple of years ago Sony probably got them thinking, but that hasn't worked out, I'm not talking about the quality of the cameras and lenses or what a half decent photographer can do with them (plenty), but in terms of market share and (apparent) profitability.
The 7D is still more camera than most amateurs can handle, the lens line up is still plenty attractive, and the aspirational segment longing for "the best of the best" (whether it is actually the best or not) is well covered by the full frame models.
In many countries Pentax is simply not even present, beyond good products which are obviously still required they would need to expand their presence which is an expensive and risky undertaking; or at the very least find specific ways to attract newbies.
The 7D is still more camera than most amateurs can handle, the lens line up is still plenty attractive, and the aspirational segment longing for "the best of the best" (whether it is actually the best or not) is well covered by the full frame models.
In many countries Pentax is simply not even present, beyond good products which are obviously still required they would need to expand their presence which is an expensive and risky undertaking; or at the very least find specific ways to attract newbies.
Yes, they need the focus motors as well as the lens offerings. Here is what I believe they need:
70-200 2.8 (even on aps-c, 200mm is of great benefit - although 50-150 would also work) with new focus motor. Has to compete with Nikon and Canon latest - not enough to compete with Sigma's version
300mm 2.8 prime with new focus motor. Where Pentax can really, really make up some ground is to make an OEM alternative to the sigma 120-300 2.8. Then they have something Canon and Nikon do NOT have.
xx-400mm 5.6 with new focus motor. This is an important "stepping stone" lens - for sports and wildlife shooters that cannot afford a $4,000 lens and are thus willing to live with f5.6 but still want that fast focus motor. (as I've said in another thread, not all f5.6 lenses are the same. The canon 70-300 f5.6 IS USML lens is very, very different than the consumer 75-300 f5.6 lens). Canon has 100-400, nikon/sony have 70-400
70-300 fast focusuing lens. Again, it's about options. This lens is typically $400-600 less expensive than a 400mm option.
85mm or 100mm 1.8/2.0 with fast focusing.
24-70 2.8 - again fast focusing. Lots of people focus on telephotos but this is an important sports-shooting lens for a lot of people.
1.4x TC
2.0x TC
Nice-to-have:
200-400mm style lens. This is tough because they are so expensive. This is in the same category as a 400mm 2.8 lens. I just don't think there are enough non-pro users out there to support either of these lenses.
200mm 2.8
I don't see benefit in:
400mm 2.8
500mm 4.0
600mm 4.0
I think those lenses are so expensive it would
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