electronic first curtain shutter - on or off?

YES!

They should also revise the firmware so that the NEX cameras automatically (temporarily) change image quality to JPEG-FINE when I select a mode that requires it, like HDR. I shouldn't have to change multiple settings every time I want to do that. Sony should assume that if I own a NEX, I know the implications of using the HDR mode, or the EFCS, or any other setting.
 
edwardaneal wrote:
GaryR60 wrote:
I don't see how the mechanical shutter could more "precise" since it lags behind the electronic shutter in speed. The electronic "shutter" simply turns on recording. If you had a mechanical shutter enabled, instead, it's actual response would, of course, be slower than the electronic shutter.
no no no - the electronic shutter doesn't simply turn on recording as you say. because the sensor is on for live view the pixels of the sensor are already fully charged. to use electronic shutter each pixel has to be turned off and the charge has to be completely drained before that pixel can be turned back on to record. From what I have read this is done pixel by pixel, row by row to simulate a shutter moving across the sensor. The problems with his type of electronic shutter come from the fact that some pixels may drain faster than others leaving some not quite completely drained when they are turned back on.

The old Nikon D70 used an mechanical shutter at speeds below 1/250th and at faster shutter speeds it used a fully electronic shutter. At faster shutter speeds when using the electronic shutter it was known to sometimes have blooming issues where the pixels became overloaded because they didnt have time to fully drain their charge before the exposure began. All later nikon DSLR's eliminated the electronic shutter and are now fully mechanical
 
Can anyone confirm that the panorama banding issue is still relevant to the NEX-6? I've seen a number of NEX-7 examples here but what about the 6?

I am going to Cancun soon and definately plan on shooting panoramas near the water. I'll definately try it out but if anyone can comment on the NeX-6 that would be great.
 
GaryR60 wrote:
edwardaneal wrote:
GaryR60 wrote:
I don't see how the mechanical shutter could more "precise" since it lags behind the electronic shutter in speed. The electronic "shutter" simply turns on recording. If you had a mechanical shutter enabled, instead, it's actual response would, of course, be slower than the electronic shutter.
no no no - the electronic shutter doesn't simply turn on recording as you say. because the sensor is on for live view the pixels of the sensor are already fully charged. to use electronic shutter each pixel has to be turned off and the charge has to be completely drained before that pixel can be turned back on to record. From what I have read this is done pixel by pixel, row by row to simulate a shutter moving across the sensor. The problems with his type of electronic shutter come from the fact that some pixels may drain faster than others leaving some not quite completely drained when they are turned back on.

The old Nikon D70 used an mechanical shutter at speeds below 1/250th and at faster shutter speeds it used a fully electronic shutter. At faster shutter speeds when using the electronic shutter it was known to sometimes have blooming issues where the pixels became overloaded because they didnt have time to fully drain their charge before the exposure began. All later nikon DSLR's eliminated the electronic shutter and are now fully mechanical
 
If the Electronic First Curtain works by turning on and off each pixel and row after row, why is it necessary a second mechanical shutter after the shot?

Wouldn't just be enough to stop the ON-OFF sequence?

If you play at home by turning the lights on/off rapidly when people moving or dancing, you get a stroboscopic effect. In fact what you see are still frames.

Tia

Ed
 
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CosmoZooo wrote:

Can anyone confirm that the panorama banding issue is still relevant to the NEX-6? I've seen a number of NEX-7 examples here but what about the 6?

I am going to Cancun soon and definately plan on shooting panoramas near the water. I'll definately try it out but if anyone can comment on the NeX-6 that would be great.
The problem with the Nex sweep panorama and water isn't the shutter but the movement of water. I don't know that I could ever get a perfect pano with moving water with my Nex-5. I haven't tried with the Nex-6. Your best bet is to take two or more overlapping photos and try a software program to merge and blend the two. If you plan your shot right such that any "seams" occur where the water isn't as prominant, you'll have a better chance of success.

As for other problems posted, I don't know. With my Nex-5, though, there's no electronic curtain and moving water always messed-up.
 
edwardaneal wrote:
GaryR60 wrote:
edwardaneal wrote:
GaryR60 wrote:
I don't see how the mechanical shutter could more "precise" since it lags behind the electronic shutter in speed. The electronic "shutter" simply turns on recording. If you had a mechanical shutter enabled, instead, it's actual response would, of course, be slower than the electronic shutter.
no no no - the electronic shutter doesn't simply turn on recording as you say. because the sensor is on for live view the pixels of the sensor are already fully charged. to use electronic shutter each pixel has to be turned off and the charge has to be completely drained before that pixel can be turned back on to record. From what I have read this is done pixel by pixel, row by row to simulate a shutter moving across the sensor. The problems with his type of electronic shutter come from the fact that some pixels may drain faster than others leaving some not quite completely drained when they are turned back on.

The old Nikon D70 used an mechanical shutter at speeds below 1/250th and at faster shutter speeds it used a fully electronic shutter. At faster shutter speeds when using the electronic shutter it was known to sometimes have blooming issues where the pixels became overloaded because they didnt have time to fully drain their charge before the exposure began. All later nikon DSLR's eliminated the electronic shutter and are now fully mechanical
 
GaryR60 wrote:
The mechanical shutter that closes and, thus, terminates the exposure, is irrelevant to out discussion. We're talking about the "shutter" being opened to make the exposure, in the first place. I submit that the electronic "shutter" is faster than any mechanical shutter could be, even if the difference is very small. That is what I am saying.
do you understand how a focal plane shutter works?

with a focal plane shutter there are two curtains. when they exposure is made both cutrains move across in front of the film / sensor with a slit between the two curtains letting the light through to expose the film / sensor

its not like one opens and then the other closes - they are a pair - watch this and you will understand



as you can see both curtains move at exactly the same speed. Even if you replace the first curtain with an electronic first curtain it must still move at the same speed as the second mechanical curtain - if it does not you will not get an accurate exposure
 
blue_skies wrote:

The EFS is essentially a negation of the mechanical first curtain.

Turning EFS on, means that the mechanical first curtain is 'parked'.

Benefits: less noise, less vibration, longer lasting camera.

Drawbacks: high shutter speeds will be exposed unevenly.

To understand the latter: EFS turns the entire sensor on at once. A 1/2000th or so shutter is essentially a small 'slit' of the first and second curtain hunting each other, thereby getting very precise high shutter speeds.

At 1/160th (flash sync - I assume the time required by each curtain to cover full sensor) you already begin to get uneven lighting, and it progresses from there (one side of the curtain is exposed for 1/160th, the other side is for the shutter speed - e.g. 1/1000th).
I did a test where I shot my CRT television with the camera in portrait orientation and 1/4000s. This way the CRT beam should be a diagonal line with standard mechanical curtains (as one would expect), but it should form a triangle as one side of the image would see 1/4000s, but the other side would have to "wait" for a full 1/160s for the second shutter to finally arrive.

However, whether I use electronic or mechanical first curtain, the result is identical--I see the diagonal line. This suggests the NEX-6 sensor (what I tested) is able to simulate the slow progression of a mechanical shutter.

If there is slight banding (I haven't observed it myself), perhaps it's due to the speed of this electronic moving curtain not being perfectly matched to the mechanical shutter.

Bart
 
You asked "Wouldn't just be enough to stop the ON-OFF sequence?"

From what I've read, the physical second curtain is necessary to cover the activated pixels (those which have recorded the image) while the image is written to the camera's memory. "Writing" the image isn't an instantaneous process.
 
There are too much situations (flash, use of the adapter 2, fast shutterspeeds that I don't use it).There will no doubt ome a situation I forget to turn it off and ruin my picture.
 
Bart Hickman wrote:
blue_skies wrote:

The EFS is essentially a negation of the mechanical first curtain.

Turning EFS on, means that the mechanical first curtain is 'parked'.

Benefits: less noise, less vibration, longer lasting camera.

Drawbacks: high shutter speeds will be exposed unevenly.

To understand the latter: EFS turns the entire sensor on at once. A 1/2000th or so shutter is essentially a small 'slit' of the first and second curtain hunting each other, thereby getting very precise high shutter speeds.

At 1/160th (flash sync - I assume the time required by each curtain to cover full sensor) you already begin to get uneven lighting, and it progresses from there (one side of the curtain is exposed for 1/160th, the other side is for the shutter speed - e.g. 1/1000th).
I did a test where I shot my CRT television with the camera in portrait orientation and 1/4000s. This way the CRT beam should be a diagonal line with standard mechanical curtains (as one would expect), but it should form a triangle as one side of the image would see 1/4000s, but the other side would have to "wait" for a full 1/160s for the second shutter to finally arrive.

However, whether I use electronic or mechanical first curtain, the result is identical--I see the diagonal line. This suggests the NEX-6 sensor (what I tested) is able to simulate the slow progression of a mechanical shutter.

If there is slight banding (I haven't observed it myself), perhaps it's due to the speed of this electronic moving curtain not being perfectly matched to the mechanical shutter.

Bart
 
Edymagno wrote:

If the Electronic First Curtain works by turning on and off each pixel and row after row, why is it necessary a second mechanical shutter after the shot?

Wouldn't just be enough to stop the ON-OFF sequence?
We all look forward to fully electronic shutters, but current technology can't turn the pixels off fast enough or accurately enough to make a proper exposure.
 
Edymagno wrote:

If the Electronic First Curtain works by turning on and off each pixel and row after row, why is it necessary a second mechanical shutter after the shot?

Wouldn't just be enough to stop the ON-OFF sequence?

If you play at home by turning the lights on/off rapidly when people moving or dancing, you get a stroboscopic effect. In fact what you see are still frames.

Tia

Ed
The sensor is measuring photon activity, kind of like a charge.

Before you turn it off, you have to read out how much charge was collected during the exposure.

Catch is, it takes much longer to read out the sensor array than the exposure time itself.

During the readout, if left ON, the sensor would keep collecting charge, or over-exposing.

If you turn it OFF again, you'd loose the image (i.e. the stored charge). There is no electronic way that would change the sensor into a non-collecting state. Therefor, you are left with the handicap of having to read out each sensor in parallel when the exposure closes - that is, you need an analog to digital convertor circuit for each sensor. Adding such a A-D circuit limits the effective sensor area and limits the maximum amount of photons that can be collected (or ISO sensitivity).

Also, cost-wise, it is far more economical to read out the sensor array in rows or columns - this brings the IC complexity down exponentially. For this, the only (simple) remedy is the mechanical shutter which closes the exposure and prohibits additional charge from being collected.

The ON works basically because you 'reset' the charge, and re-start counting/collecting.

I don't ever foresee an electronic second curtain in high end DSLR or mirror less cameras - the added logic would degrade the sensors ability to store charge and limits its DR. camb.color

In Point&Shoot cameras, they do away with the mechanical second curtain, by doing just that: adding logic to convert the analog charge to digital values at the end of the exposure. This added logic makes the sensor more clompex, and hence more expensive (which is offset by the smaller sensors used in P&S cameras), but it also limits the sensor from reaching its maximum optimum performance - contributing in a way to limiting ISO values on small sensors as well.

In a P&S camera, the mechanical shutter is an unwanted object - it makes the camera larger and more cumbersome to use, whereas the A-D readout is cost wise a better trade-off, and the compromise seems well accepted.

In APS-C and FF cameras, the market wants the opposite - get the best sensor performance possible, and use a mechanical shutter to reach this. With the added cost and bulk of the mechanical shutter, it is still a positive trade-off.

Note, there are several other techniques, such as focal plane shutter (FPS) and even electronic (on sensor) but mechanical 'levers' that interrupt exposure - all these can still be seen as a mechanical solution of sorts.
 
blue_skies wrote:
Bart Hickman wrote:
blue_skies wrote:

The EFS is essentially a negation of the mechanical first curtain.

Turning EFS on, means that the mechanical first curtain is 'parked'.

Benefits: less noise, less vibration, longer lasting camera.

Drawbacks: high shutter speeds will be exposed unevenly.

To understand the latter: EFS turns the entire sensor on at once. A 1/2000th or so shutter is essentially a small 'slit' of the first and second curtain hunting each other, thereby getting very precise high shutter speeds.

At 1/160th (flash sync - I assume the time required by each curtain to cover full sensor) you already begin to get uneven lighting, and it progresses from there (one side of the curtain is exposed for 1/160th, the other side is for the shutter speed - e.g. 1/1000th).
I did a test where I shot my CRT television with the camera in portrait orientation and 1/4000s. This way the CRT beam should be a diagonal line with standard mechanical curtains (as one would expect), but it should form a triangle as one side of the image would see 1/4000s, but the other side would have to "wait" for a full 1/160s for the second shutter to finally arrive.

However, whether I use electronic or mechanical first curtain, the result is identical--I see the diagonal line. This suggests the NEX-6 sensor (what I tested) is able to simulate the slow progression of a mechanical shutter.

If there is slight banding (I haven't observed it myself), perhaps it's due to the speed of this electronic moving curtain not being perfectly matched to the mechanical shutter.

Bart

--
http://bhimages.zenfolio.com
Very interesting experiment, and I concur with your findings!

I think that you are right - the 2nd mechanical curtain has a constant speed, so it can be matched perfectly in an electronic first curtain (EFC).

Or - in your example - the angle of the leading and trailing edge of the diagonal band should remain constant - only the width should change with different exposure lengths, and this should be unaffected by the EFC on or off settings, and this is exactly what happens.

This is good news, imho, for using the EFC. If there is any mismatch between the tolerances of the mechanical and electronic progression, it would lead to very small artifacts, not large ones.

The other question that remains is as to how the EFC turns on the sensor, line by line, or in groups of lines? The mechanical 2nd curtain is analog, so it is essentially a line-by-line closure method. If the EFC is controlling groups of lines, e.g. every 10 lines (to simplify layout of the sensor), then there remains a potential for 'uneveness' for very bright exposures.
Here are the two shots I took last night. It looks like the shutter moves a bit faster at the beginning then slows down toward the end (a drew a straight line so you can see how non-linear it is.) If anything, I'd say the two mechanical shutters (first image) started out further apart in the beginning and then the 2nd curtain caught up slightly. However, in the 2nd image, it looks as if the electronic shutter is tracking almost perfectly the entire way--even tracking the non-constant motion of the mechanical shutter. This suggests to me that there's some real-time tracking method that keeps the electronic shutter somehow perfectly matched to the mechanical shutter when the two are close together (obviously it can't track for long shutter times, but then it's not critical in those cases.) I could imagine the mechanical shutter having a fiducial on the sides that the edge circuitry on the sensor can track.

So if I had to predict, I'd guess the NEX-6 is actually less likely to have banding with the electronic front curtain shutter enabled.

Or we're over-thinking the whole thing and there's some other explanation for it. :-)

(Ignore the red dot in the 2nd shot--it's a room light reflecting in the glass of the TV screen.)







Bart

--

http://bhimages.zenfolio.com
 

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Edymagno wrote:

If the Electronic First Curtain works by turning on and off each pixel and row after row, why is it necessary a second mechanical shutter after the shot?
With old CCD cameras this was no issues, as CCD sensors can turn off the pixels completely so they don't accept more charge accumulation from light hitting the sensor. With current CMOS sensors the technology doesn't allow completely locking the exposure at its current state, so light leaks in and would ruin the rest of your exposure. Would be like opening a film camera in a room full of light and ruining your film. Again, first curtain is fine as you are just clearing and enabling charge accumulation, not trying to hold it at its fixed level like after exposure.

CMOS does allow electronic rolling shutters, which is what most video modes use. They scan the image from top to bottom and repeat, but they do this at a fairly slow rate so you get "jello vision" effect. They might scan top to bottom in 1/30 or 1/60 of a second (where standard image might be more like 1/160 or 1/250).

Also remember that video is low resolution, they can scan a lot faster. The Pentax Q has an electronic shutter, but top to bottom is like 1/13 of a second (shutter speed can be much higher than that, it uses a rolling shutter concept), so you get some jello vision on moving subjects with the electronic shutter (manual lenses). This is during the 12 MP still mode.

My guess is cameras will be electronic shutter in 5 years +/-, even high end cameras. It would be very nice not to have to deal with an unreliable shutter in a camera that causes vibrations and reliability issues. Thankfully they are pretty good and usually last longer then the camera, but still one of the main points of failure.

Eric
 
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One of the reasons why I chose Nex line the second time (as I'm already a 5N owner) was due to its electronic shutter. I was considering a M4/3 camera but was put off by shutter shock issues that many have reported.
 
edwardaneal wrote:
GaryR60 wrote:

The mechanical shutter that closes and, thus, terminates the exposure, is irrelevant to out discussion. We're talking about the "shutter" being opened to make the exposure, in the first place. I submit that the electronic "shutter" is faster than any mechanical shutter could be, even if the difference is very small. That is what I am saying.
do you understand how a focal plane shutter works?

with a focal plane shutter there are two curtains. when they exposure is made both cutrains move across in front of the film / sensor with a slit between the two curtains letting the light through to expose the film / sensor

its not like one opens and then the other closes - they are a pair - watch this and you will understand



as you can see both curtains move at exactly the same speed. Even if you replace the first curtain with an electronic first curtain it must still move at the same speed as the second mechanical curtain - if it does not you will not get an accurate exposure
 
edwardaneal wrote:
GaryR60 wrote:

The mechanical shutter that closes and, thus, terminates the exposure, is irrelevant to out discussion. We're talking about the "shutter" being opened to make the exposure, in the first place. I submit that the electronic "shutter" is faster than any mechanical shutter could be, even if the difference is very small. That is what I am saying.
do you understand how a focal plane shutter works?

with a focal plane shutter there are two curtains. when they exposure is made both cutrains move across in front of the film / sensor with a slit between the two curtains letting the light through to expose the film / sensor

its not like one opens and then the other closes - they are a pair - watch this and you will understand



as you can see both curtains move at exactly the same speed. Even if you replace the first curtain with an electronic first curtain it must still move at the same speed as the second mechanical curtain - if it does not you will not get an accurate exposure
 

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