A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

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Guy Parsons wrote:

Reading most of the thread it seems that the ideal camera for the dedicated Manual mode user should have 3 convenient to use dials.

Aperture - selectable in 1 stop/ 1/2 stop, 1/3 stop increments.

Shutter speed - selectable in 1 stop/ 1/2 stop, 1/3 stop increments.

ISO - selectable in 1 stop/ 1/2 stop, 1/3 AND 1/6 stop increments.

The film days hangover of having only two convenient dials for shutter and aperture needs updating.



In the thread on How to Prevent ISO To Climb Too Fast I also suggestedthat modern digital cameras now need three dials to control aperture, shutter speed, and ISO/EC.

I would suggest however that Film SLRs did have 3 dials (well my OM4Ti and OM40 do) - aperture dial, shutter speed dial, and ISO/EC dial. The latter dial was multi mode with a few postions either side of central for EC (rather than a continuously rotating dial) with lift and turn to set ISO. Perhaps the point here was for a "convenient" dial in which case I agree, it wasn't always that convenient when the camera was up to your eye. On the OM40 the dial was on the right of the top plate so you would need to lower the camera to use it; on the OM4Ti the dial was on the left of the top plate and the EC was quite useable with your left hand - also used to adjust aperture (on lens of course) and shutter (on lens throat on OM cameras).
 
tjuster1 wrote:
Anthony Curcione wrote:

That would be completely pointless in manual mode. All e posture compensation does is change the shutter or aperture or both depending on what mode your in. You're already doing that in manual!

If you want exposure comp, use shutter priority or aperture priority.
Sigh. Another ignorant post.

It's not completely pointless, as anyone who has used this setting knows. It's actually very handy to have the camera pick the ISO after you've set both the shutter speed and aperture, and it would be even better if you could dial in some exposure compensation for the same damn reason you dial in exposure compensation in A mode, or S mode: to compensate for areas of the image that are too bright or too dark.
But can't you just adjust the ISO yourself to suit i.e. to the same level of brightness you'd get with AUTO ISO choosing the ISO and then you yourself dialling the EC?

In other words pretty much just set the ISO by eye like you set the EC by eye.
 
I had a "duh" moment when thinking about this, realizing that for me all I really need is to be able to set a minimum shutter speed in A mode with auto-iso, as I think you can with some other brands. This would allow me to take a walk in the woods with my family and dogs, set the shuttter to 250 or so minimum, put the aperture where I want it, and use exposure comp as needed. As it is now in A mode shutter speed will drop too low for some movement. When bird shooting I could set the shutter to 800 or more and do the same. The shutter could float higher but not lower. Kind of an A(s) mode.
 
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jkrumm wrote:

I had a "duh" moment when thinking about this, realizing that for me all I really need is to be able to set a minimum shutter speed in A mode with auto-iso, as I think you can with some other brands. This would allow me to take a walk in the woods with my family and dogs, set the shuttter to 250 or so minimum, put the aperture where I want it, and use exposure comp as needed. As it is now in A mode shutter speed will drop too low for some movement. When bird shooting I could set the shutter to 800 or more and do the same. The shutter could float higher but not lower. Kind of an A(s) mode.
 
Allan Brown wrote:

This has been around essentially since day one. Many photographers used to and still do lie to the camera about the speed of the film.

Allan
You mean like putting tape over the bar code on the film cans?

BTW, I love using M + Auto ISO for BIF's and air shows. Using a slow lens like the 75-300, it allows me to concentrate on shooting without worrying aboutshe shutter speed.? EC may not be as critical for me in these situations. I can rely on the improved DR of the E-M5 tocompensate in PP.
 
rakore wrote:

I like to use the E-M5 in manual mode with auto ISO. It lets me control the two variables of the exposure triangle I'm most concerned about, and at the same time releaves me from having to factor in ISO as a third factor.

However, I haven't found a way to set exposure compensation on the E-M5 in this mode. I think Pentax allows it in its TAv mode (aperture and shutter mode), and I think some high end Nikons allow it too. This would be a very useful feature and should be doable with a firmware fix.
EV Compensation is only for AE modes like A and S, not M. There is no reason to have EV Compensation in Manual exposure mode as it's already there - all you have to do is change either the aperture, shutter speed (or ISO) to compensate.

In the AE modes like A or S, the meter always produces the correct exposure, and changing the aperture or shutter speed gives you an equivalent exposure, but doesn't effect the current EV reading. This is why EV compensation is needed in this instance (A or S), and not in M mode.
 
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marike6 wrote:
rakore wrote:

I like to use the E-M5 in manual mode with auto ISO. It lets me control the two variables of the exposure triangle I'm most concerned about, and at the same time releaves me from having to factor in ISO as a third factor.

However, I haven't found a way to set exposure compensation on the E-M5 in this mode. I think Pentax allows it in its TAv mode (aperture and shutter mode), and I think some high end Nikons allow it too. This would be a very useful feature and should be doable with a firmware fix.
EV Compensation is only for AE modes like A and S, not M. There is no reason to have EV Compensation in Manual exposure mode as it's already there - all you have to do is change either the aperture, shutter speed (or ISO) to compensate.
Unless you are using auto ISO with manual mode, like the OP stated.

You set the aperture you want. You set the shutter speed you want. You let the camera choose the ISO to achieve what it thinks is the correct brightness. Sometimes you disagree with its idea of "correct." This is when it's nice to be able to use EC.


Julie
 
marike6 wrote:
rakore wrote:

I like to use the E-M5 in manual mode with auto ISO. It lets me control the two variables of the exposure triangle I'm most concerned about, and at the same time releaves me from having to factor in ISO as a third factor.

However, I haven't found a way to set exposure compensation on the E-M5 in this mode. I think Pentax allows it in its TAv mode (aperture and shutter mode), and I think some high end Nikons allow it too. This would be a very useful feature and should be doable with a firmware fix.
EV Compensation is only for AE modes like A and S, not M. There is no reason to have EV Compensation in Manual exposure mode as it's already there - all you have to do is change either the aperture, shutter speed (or ISO) to compensate.

In the AE modes like A or S, the meter always produces the correct exposure, and changing the aperture or shutter speed gives you an equivalent exposure, but doesn't effect the current EV reading. This is why EV compensation is needed in this instance (A or S), and not in M mode.
Please read some of the thread to understand what I mean. I'm basically requesting a mode equivalent to TAv (shutter + aperture priority) on Pentax, a very useful mode. Nikon also has this mode implicitly with its auto ISO implementation.
 
marike6 wrote:
rakore wrote:

I like to use the E-M5 in manual mode with auto ISO. It lets me control the two variables of the exposure triangle I'm most concerned about, and at the same time releaves me from having to factor in ISO as a third factor.

However, I haven't found a way to set exposure compensation on the E-M5 in this mode. I think Pentax allows it in its TAv mode (aperture and shutter mode), and I think some high end Nikons allow it too. This would be a very useful feature and should be doable with a firmware fix.
EV Compensation is only for AE modes like A and S, not M. There is no reason to have EV Compensation in Manual exposure mode as it's already there - all you have to do is change either the aperture, shutter speed (or ISO) to compensate.

In the AE modes like A or S, the meter always produces the correct exposure, and changing the aperture or shutter speed gives you an equivalent exposure, but doesn't effect the current EV reading. This is why EV compensation is needed in this instance (A or S), and not in M mode.
You're at a concert or stage show with your camera. From your seat you decide on a 100mm FL and wide open your lens limits you to F/4.5 as your brightest Aperture at this FL. But you know your lens and you know it's a little soft at F/4.5 and will be better stopped down to F/5.6. You decide you need at least 1/200s to freeze motion of the singer and in particular that manic drummer.

So you decide you want to fix the lens at F/5.6 and not let the shutter drop below 1/200s.

Which mode do you shoot?
  1. Aperture priority on F/5.6
  2. Shutter priority on 1/200s
  3. Manual on F/5.6 + 1/200s
Let's assume for now you answered 3, manual.

Now as the singer dashes about the stage, going from blackness with a solitary spot, to full on background Pyro, how do you capture this light varying from shot to shot?
  1. Meter and change the ISO manually for every shot
  2. Allow the camera's Auto ISO feature to give a 'correct' 'exposure'
Choosing option 1 will cause many missed moments as you meter for a singer who has since moved on.

Choosing option 2 lets you concentrate on framing and predicting the performers motion. But the problem with 2 is, in this tricky light the metering is going to get fooled and give you lots of blown highlights when the singer in solo spotlight. You perhaps want to under-expose by 1.5 stops.

If you have a camera that supports EC in 'manual' mode, you set your EC to -1.5 (perhaps switch to raw for extra latitude) and then fire away, capturing lots of great stage performance.

If you have the Olympus, you either put the camera down and enjoy the show, or fix your ISO and accept having more noise than needed on some shots, and over/under exposure on others.

Perhaps you have another solution that works better in this scenario? And the other scenarios that need fixed (or have limited) Aperture, and a minimum shutter speed, with a constantly changing light source?

Note 1: The mode that let's you set both Aperture and Shutter independently is called Manual on many cameras, but unfortunately the use of this word causes lots of debate, such as this one. The name of the mode does't matter, it is the ability to set both Aperture and Shutter independently that is important. But when an un-compensatable Auto ISO is used in this mode, you are stuck with whatever ISO the meter decides to give you.

Note 2: The word 'exposure' above is inside these '' marks because, as the pedants rightly like to tell us, exposure is not really affected by ISO. Technically it is the resulting image brightness that is affected by ISO. However so many people use the term under/over exposed for dark/bright images, being too pedantic about it only detracts from the actual issue being discussed.

Note 3: Sometimes, some cameras let you work around the problem in other ways, for example being able to specify a minimum shutter speed in some circumstance. But these vary and can be burred in menus, and as the EC is used in the other semi-auto modes, it just makes sense to some people to allow it in the semi-auto mode known as M+AutoISO.

-Najinsky
 
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rrr_hhh wrote:
aVolanche wrote:
drpoop wrote:

Why?
You can set shutter speed + aperture...then allow the iso to float for "correct exposure". Having exposure compensation in M-mode allows you to darken or lighten the images (ex: in a back-lit photo). If you use exposure compensation in any mode, you know why it's needed.
But when you fix the ISOs and change that parameter instead of letting it float, you get the same results as with an exposure compensation dial ! Since one wheel will be for shutter and the other for aperture, you will still have to press an Fn button to get to the exposure compensation parameter. I don't see how that can be any different than the actual situation.
 
In the scenario you describe, with option 3, if you are getting blown highlights, you just bump your shutter speed up one stop. That is exactly what an Exposure Compensation would do, compensate for the exposure, it's redundant in Manual mode. Any camera that has an option for Exposure compensation in Manual mode is just tricking you.
 
Would the approach they took with the E-P5 (and I'm assuming the E-M1) work?

The 2x2 dial would allow you to adjust aperture and shutter, then flip it over and you could use the ISO wheel as your EC.

Sure it's crude, but it addresses the question of locking in your Av and Tv value, ¿no?

Of course then it's no longer auto iso, but rather the world's fastest film swapping system.
 
Holy thread resurrection batman. This question was asked before the E-P5 was even announced.

I'm wondering if that is what the dial functionality was added.
 
This one is a bit long in the tooth and rather contentious, so, if you would like to start a new one with the current discussion, that would be appreciated.

-J
 
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