Why I sold my 10D pt 2

Ha ha ha!

Your comments are right on, but the best tool for the job is an Olympus mjuII (stylus Epic). It gives you real speed, exposure and focus accuracy, and the flash is always just what you need. Batteries last for months, it never run out of memory, it fits in any pocket, it costs 90 us$ and (sigh) it's not digital ;(
The Stylus Epic will keep the film industry alive
TangoMan

What is wrong with expecting DSLRs to give you better straight out of camera image?

There is this false notion that you have to know how to post process in order to be a good photographer. If you want to post process, use RAW, but in my opinion, why shouldn't a DSLR give me results that I don't have to spent time adjusting it?

The "creative style" should emphasis more on your composition, lighting, not post processing. For me, post processing is a technical skill much like that of a lab technician. Do you want to be a better photographer or a better lab technician.

We post process with DSLRs because up to now, we have to.

There are some instances we perform special effects/dodge/burn/BW/Sepia to an image to achieve a certain look, but generally, most of us have post process to get the same image that a good photo lab would give us if we shot film. This to me is not creative.

Best regards,

TPW said:

Some people really just want the functionality of a Point and Shoot
in the body of a DSLR to show off that they are such a serious
photographer. Those people always b1tch about this camera makes
better straight out of camera image than that camera. They don't
want to bother with the effort of post processing to create images
that fits their creative style, perhaps because they don't have any
creative style.

Click to expand...

--
Tuan Nguyen
http://www.BayAreaFoto.com
http://www.PhotoVideoDisc.com

when I first bought my 10D I paniced too, the bad results were partly my poor technic and partly the exposure system of 10D.

Unless you are realy phtographing very balanced scene, you should use spot metring. Flash and ambient light metering is very predictable but not good, in auto mode. some of the dull looking pictures have a reason to be like that, an d that is to avoid blown out highlights. I have too see yet one picture in which there is no detail in highlights and of course that has a trade off which is need for post processing, especialy leveling the mid tones. initially I used to bring the histogram to the left and use only under the curve area but that was a mistake because details in highlights gets lost. I wish I didn't have to do any post processing, but I don't think that there is any DSLR which wouldn't need it.

Regards.

Andrew Chiciak said:

Being objective about these photos. The 10D seems to overexpose,
but it does have more neutral skintones. The S2 skin tones seem to
have more red in them. If you dialed the exposure down about 1/2
stop on the 10D, your results would be pretty close. I use my
cameras professionally and I have been able to get better results
with my d60 and 10d than my associate has gotten with his
s2...therein lies the the caveat...technique does matter.

Zero said:

If the workflow of the S2 gets you where you want to be better than
the 10D, then that is a fair statement. However, some of your
other claims are simply too tempting for some to pass up on.

I am not trying to be confrontational, but asking the questions
which I am sure others want to ask as well.

Andrew Chiciak said:

Andrew Chiciak said:

SteveVideoman said:

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

Click to expand...

--
Some digital cameras, some lenses, 2 eyes

http://www.tom-crowning.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Zero my hero

Click to expand...

--
Andy C

Click to expand...

You never said the 10d sucks? on another post you claimed a little point and shoot had better exposure or dynamic range than it, if that isn't insulting I have no idea what is. You post snapshot pictures and use this to claim the s2 is better, you don't even take the same picture set-ups, same time or same class of lens and you expect us to believe that the s2 is better based on shots around the house? This is pretty stupid as far as evidence goes, i can just as easily post a pic that the s2 blew the highlights out, does that make the s2 lousy? I can also say that I saw splotchy output from the s2, or soft images from it. Please have some respect for the forum members here, if your going to claim something is better please have better evidence to back it up. Cool dog btw and the cat is pretty wild. Sorry to lose my temper but posts like yours are so annoying.

SteveVideoman said:

Stephen Reed said:

SteveVideoman said:

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

But didn't you introduce the S2 into the 10d vs D1x debate? At least the guy who posted 10d vs D1x uses both cameras and posted side by side comaprisons. What is your excuse if not simply to look for affirmation or start a flame war?

SteveVideoman said:

Mark Booth said:

I recently replaced my Nikon 5700 with the Canon 10D. I am selling
my 5700 because I was unhappy with the low light autofocus
performance. I spent time in the Nikon forum here at DP Review and
posted messages about the autofocus issues.

Now that I have the 10D, I spend my time here in the Canon SLR
forum. I do NOT go over to the Nikon forum and tell them how much
better the 10D is compared to the 5700.

Steve, you've sold your 10D and now use the S2. I'm happy you've
found a camera that you like and fits your shooting style. Why not
save everyone (including yourself) some aggravation and spend your
time over in the Fuji forum? Spending your time over here simply
makes it appear that you are trying to justify your switch... to
yourself.

Happy shooting!

Mark

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Steve, both cameras are capable of producing stunning images. However, the cameras are not your problem. You have developed no skills in the art of photography (composition, lighting, etc.). As a result, you could make ANY camera look defective. Do yourself a favor, focus on your skills not your equippment.

Regards,
J Roberts

TangoMan said:

Ha ha ha!
Your comments are right on, but the best tool for the job is an
Olympus mjuII (stylus Epic). It gives you real speed, exposure and
focus accuracy, and the flash is always just what you need.
Batteries last for months, it never run out of memory, it fits in
any pocket, it costs 90 us$ and (sigh) it's not digital ;(
The Stylus Epic will keep the film industry alive
TangoMan

Click to expand...

Used to have one of those (the original µ actually, the one with a 35 mm prime lens). It is a splendid PnS.

I do like the S40 more, though, largely because it's digital, and it has the creative control the µ didn't. I've successfully used the S40 as a back-up for my film gear on several occasions -- the image quality is really, really good for the size, and it handles quite difficult situations without complaining.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

You can customize the camera to give you contrast, exposure, sharpness, saturation and color tone to suit your style, right out of camera. But then, you must depress Menu-> Parameters-> Set-Up. Not everyone is so technicaly inclined

Enjoy your camera!

TanogMan

--

The best propaganda is not obvious to its people. But, try as it can, it can't fool the foreigners. And the propaganded will soon call the foreigners anti- for simply asking them to think about their automatic thoughts.

BayAreaFoto.com wrote:
[snip]

BayAreaFoto.com said:

We post process with DSLRs because up to now, we have to.
There are some instances we perform special
effects/dodge/burn/BW/Sepia to an image to achieve a certain look,
but generally, most of us have post process to get the same image
that a good photo lab would give us if we shot film. This to me is
not creative.

Click to expand...

I think the key word here is "good". Your normal automated minilab will give you quality that absolutely sucks, no matter how good the quality that actually got captured on film, compared to what you can get straight out of the camera from a humble 2 MP point-and-shoot (let alone royalty like the 10D, or S2 for that matter). To get prints from film that are better than straight out of a Digital IXUS, you need (a) a good pro lab (b) pretty decent darkroom skills, or (c) a decent slide scanner and, you guessed it, post-processing.

This is what caused me to trade in my T70 gear for an APS point-and-shoot, after I no longer had access to a lab or the time to do the work: I felt so frustrated at the sucky shots the minilab did, that I decided that I might as well lighten my kit by several kilos.

It is also what reawakened my interest in "ambitious" photography.

(The whole story's on my website, follow the Lessons link in my .sig, then go to Pontification and Equipment, if you really want to know.)

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

Jack A. Zucker said:

You're so outspoken against folks who have complained about their
10D so I figured you must really know what you're talking about.
Imagine my surprise when I took a look at your galleries and
discovered that your pix look like they were taken with an
instamatic. Normally I would not have negatively commented on the
merits of someone's work but in your case I made an exception.

Maybe YOU should go away and hone your photographic skills before
giving others technical advise.

Click to expand...

Hi, Jaz -- found a camera good enough for your flower pictures yet? I notice you've gone through four or five in the last six months or so...

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

mini-me said:

Zero said:

If the workflow of the S2 gets you where you want to be better than
the 10D, then that is a fair statement. However, some of your
other claims are simply too tempting for some to pass up on.

I am not trying to be confrontational, but asking the questions
which I am sure others want to ask as well.

mini-me said:

mini-me said:

SteveVideoman said:

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

Click to expand...

--
Some digital cameras, some lenses, 2 eyes

http://www.tom-crowning.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Zero my hero

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.jackzucker.com

SteveVideoman said:

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

Click to expand...

You do not need to explain cameras are just tools get what suits your needs and keep shooting.

This is my feeling as well. In addition, his aperture settings and shutter speeds are all over the place. To me this indicates that he's driving the cameras in some automatic mode. If true, maybe he prefers the automatic or program mode programming of the Fuji to the programming of the 10D. Fair enough. But to really judge the cameras, you have to drive them in manual mode and see how they repsond to identical evironments with identical settings. Clearly that has not been done. But if the Fuji meets his shooting style better, then that's good for him and his images. However, to draw broad based and generalized conclusions (i.e. this camera is a better portrait camera than that camera) based on one's personal shooting style is rediculous.

Jay Bean said:

SteveVideoman said:

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Mine is also fixed 35mm, only the aperture has widened to 2.8. Granted, it doesn't see much action nowaday. The battery might start lasting for years On the digital front, I might try the sub-mini Sony someday ( it's about as big as my thumb.)

Since I started shooting for money, I don't take so many fun pictures anymore. As money rolls in, I hope I will have the freedom to shoot more of what I find thrilling.

BTW, I'm a fan of your photographic philosophy, you seem to enjoy yourself very much

Tango Man

draxjobs said:

You do not need to explain cameras are just tools get what suits
your needs and keep shooting.

Click to expand...

And I congratulated Steve on getting the camera which suits him best when he first announced it ages ago .. The fact that I dislike the S2 and would even choose a D100 over one is totally irrelevant, I don't get on with a lot of Korg Synths and Ford cars either - Each to their own, just because I like Canon DSLRs, Waldorf Synths, Epson Printers, Monitors with Sony Tubes in, Ridata CF cards, Hahnel Batteries and Calvin Klein boxer shorts doesn't mean anyone has to agree ;-) .. LOL ...

If Fuji made a DSLR with the EOS mount then all these pointless threads about the S? may be actually interesting instead of degrading into useless flame wars.

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=27855

He's just annoyed because he posted a landscape shot on the Fuji forum 11 hours ago and so far only one guy has commented anything, maybe he wants a little attention from his outrageous claims because he ain't getting it from his pictures.

Stephen Reed said:

SteveVideoman said:

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

TangoMan said:

Mine is also fixed 35mm, only the aperture has widened to 2.8.
Granted, it doesn't see much action nowaday. The battery might
start lasting for years On the digital front, I might try the
sub-mini Sony someday ( it's about as big as my thumb.)

Click to expand...

Yep, there's certainly a lot of choice in that department. I was pretty intrigued by the recently announced Caplio -- they claim to solve the single biggest issue with digicams, shutter lag. If it's as fast as they make it out to be, it could be a very fun camera to have.

TangoMan said:

Since I started shooting for money, I don't take so many fun
pictures anymore. As money rolls in, I hope I will have the
freedom to shoot more of what I find thrilling.

Click to expand...

Heh... that's one reason I've never even considered shooting pictures for money; it's too damn fun as a hobby to ruin by making it a profession. I already tried that with computer games: starting to review them for a magazine cured that addiction!

TangoMan said:

BTW, I'm a fan of your photographic philosophy, you seem to enjoy
yourself very much

Click to expand...

Thanks, I try. I think it'd be a bit of a waste, spending all the time (and money) on it voluntarily, and then not enjoying myself. Um... where did you find out about my photographic philosophy? I'm not sure I've worked it entirely out myself...

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

Looks like you are having problems learning how to use the S2 also. Overexposed a few of these didn't you?

SteveVideoman said:

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree with you too.

In the film world, do the serious photographers simply send their negatives to Walmart for processing or do they try to perfect their own dark room techniques? Dark room development is a form of post processing, is it not? And the serious photographers took dark room techniques very serious because they know it is a very important part of the creative process. I took three photography courses, intro, intermediate and advanced. All three course had lessons about the darkroom and post processing. The advanced course (the most artistic one) is actually more dedicated to darkroom techniques than any other aspects of photography, including composition. So no, your assertion that post processing are skills for lab technicians rather than artists is incorrect. Through post processing, photographers can express more of their artistic style.

The same principle applies to the digial world, where the darkroom is Photoshop and other image editing tools. In fact, in digital photography, post processing is both more important and easier to do. It is more important because unlikel film where you can choose between different effects, digital sensor is always that same chip and only captures data in a predicatble way. It takes post processing to realize the artistic effects of all those different kinds of film plus more. Therefore, serious photographers who wants to create works of art will always do postprocessing.

That brings back to my original post. DSLRs are still expensive photographic tools. If one doesn't take photography serious enough to do some creative post processing, then why buy a DSLR at all. The high end P&S can yield better straight out of camera pics and they are a lot cheaper and easier to use. I stand by my assertion that anyone who uses a DSLR but doesn't want to do any post processing are not serious photographers and only want to show off their equipment. I'm sorry if this may offend some people but that is how I feel about this subject.

BayAreaFoto.com said:

The "creative style" should emphasis more on your composition,
lighting, not post processing. For me, post processing is a
technical skill much like that of a lab technician. Do you want to
be a better photographer or a better lab technician.

We post process with DSLRs because up to now, we have to.
There are some instances we perform special
effects/dodge/burn/BW/Sepia to an image to achieve a certain look,
but generally, most of us have post process to get the same image
that a good photo lab would give us if we shot film. This to me is
not creative.

Best regards,

TPW said:

Some people really just want the functionality of a Point and Shoot
in the body of a DSLR to show off that they are such a serious
photographer. Those people always b1tch about this camera makes
better straight out of camera image than that camera. They don't
want to bother with the effort of post processing to create images
that fits their creative style, perhaps because they don't have any
creative style.

Click to expand...

--
Tuan Nguyen
http://www.BayAreaFoto.com
http://www.PhotoVideoDisc.com

Click to expand...

As far as I am concerned if you want to get the best results out of a Canon digital SLR you have you shoot RAW and you have to post process. If that does not suit your needs then go buy another camera. The Canon DSLRs take great pics in JPEG if you set them up and use them correctly but for best results, RAW is the only way to go.