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10D focus test 2 (skip this if you're not interested)

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Andrew Chiciak said:
So what is your point...should people just ignore a problem or have
meaningful discussions about...I certainly don't call this neurotic
whining...there is an issue and if you own a camera that has these
issues, you need to address it. I shoot for a living...I certainly
don't wan't to have to tell my customer that their face is not in
focus in a portrait because I just got a new camera that is
behaving erratically. That's why testing new equipment of any model
or brand is so important...I still shoot polaroids with my film
cameras at the beginning of a shoot, partly to make sure the
equipment is working properly...its a good stopgap.
Click to expand...
I don't know how many times I've had to say this but here goes...

IF you see a problem in your NORMAL shooting or even shooting test shots of what you NORMALLY shoot, THEN test to investigate the problem. What I see happening is that people are assuming there already IS a problem and testing for it. Have you even TRIED to shoot a test protrait with your new camera? So how do you know if the face isn't going to be in focus. Even if you do a great ruler or chart test and everything's in focus, will it do that EVERY SINGLE TIME? I doubt it.
 
I admit that I may have mistakenly thought that what was going on with MAC was just being continued here and even in another post. It appeared to me to be like an "in your face!" thing. I would like to see this become helpful for people who have FOUND a problem without the torture testing. I believe that if you go into a situation with a certain mindset (I know there's a problem) then you'll find just what you're looking for. And I don't question anyone's credentials so I don't understand why it becomes a point. MOST of us here have had a lot of photographic background. I've got over 30 years myself. But there ARE people here who've not used an SLR before and feel this camera cost them a bundle. Now here's a bunch of posts suggesting that they MIGHT not have gotten their money's worth because of these blanket statements. And instead of getting familiar with their equipment and seeing how it works in the real world, they're worried it's broken right out of the box and MUST test it instead of USE it. And as far as quips go, that's been a two way street too.
 
It depends on how large is the target part in the image.

For 200mm at 2m, it's OK.

For wide angle, you better interpolate it to A3 size or your lens to target distance is too short. Or use a thicker is saver.
DavidP said:
I would suggest using a thicker line than the one on that test
chart. Maybe 50% to 100% thicker.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
Click to expand...
--
Go ahead, never look back
 
Why should the consumers have to pay for Canon's fault if the lenses (Canon's brand) are out of the warranty period. This is obviously something that Canon should address and pay for all the cost of calibration. A $1500 body that doesn't "work" well with Canon's lenses?!?!

Bad marketing strategy and customer service from Canon.

Thang.
herb uk said:
Pekka Saarinen said:
The method used to fix this is to first test the camera with their
in-house reference lens (fixed 200mm which is as he said "perfect")
to make sure camera calibration is ok. If camera is off then it is
fixed either by software or mechanically to make sure that 200mm
focuses spot on. Then he takes the most used and best quality lens
of the lot (in my case 70-200) and calibrate that as well as
possible (i.e. open the lens and use its adjustments), then take
other lenses one by one and calibrate each to the camera. Makes
sense.
Click to expand...
No sense at all!

When you buy a second body which doesn't behave like your first
one. it will make less sense to you. Canon are in a mess here. This
'calibrate your lenses to your camera' stuff is really dodgy.
Proper engineering requires that equipment is made to a standard
with suitable (suitably low) tolerances. Then you calibrate each
piece to the standard, not to each other. We're going back about
four hundred years here - give me 20 foot of rope please - oh
shame! - your foot is not the same size as mine! Where is this all
leading? Looks like Canon are as deficient in calibration
engineering as they are in software.
Click to expand...
 
HI pekka, and thank You for Your comments here in dpreview and Canon digital forum. And plz keep on iinforming about DSLR findings even if some ppls cannot understand it ;)

I bought 10D and 100mm macro. I got them just b4 Easter.

Closeups are good. In bright light conditions long distance shooting seem to be allright. If light poor I have little bit focusing difficulties with AF. In that "line-test" I got backfocusing even using f's like 5.6 or more.

My question to You is if I decide to send my 10D to Canon service here in Finland could You please recommend the place I should send it?
I have bought it from German netshop.

thx -AriR-
Pekka Saarinen said:
Brian Semotiuk said:
OOF seemed
fairly evenly distributed left to right of the "0" mark.
Click to expand...
Theoretically 2/3 of focused area should be behind "0" and 1/3
before. But I'm happy if it is evenly around, too.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
Click to expand...
 
Describe "poor light".

If everything works in good light, but inaccuracies develop in poorer light, I don't think there's much Canon can do about it. You've simply exceeded the capabilities of the AF sensors.
Ari Riutto said:
HI pekka, and thank You for Your comments here in dpreview and
Canon digital forum. And plz keep on iinforming about DSLR findings
even if some ppls cannot understand it ;)

I bought 10D and 100mm macro. I got them just b4 Easter.
Closeups are good. In bright light conditions long distance
shooting seem to be allright. If light poor I have little bit
focusing difficulties with AF. In that "line-test" I got
backfocusing even using f's like 5.6 or more.

My question to You is if I decide to send my 10D to Canon service
here in Finland could You please recommend the place I should send
it?
I have bought it from German netshop.
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
My experience (and I believe that of others) is that Canon will also adjust the lenses for free, even if out of warranty, for these mis-focusing problems.
thang said:
Why should the consumers have to pay for Canon's fault if the
lenses (Canon's brand) are out of the warranty period. This is
obviously something that Canon should address and pay for all the
cost of calibration. A $1500 body that doesn't "work" well with
Canon's lenses?!?!

Bad marketing strategy and customer service from Canon.
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
Finally, a decent test chart to use for investigating focus issues.

I would add one important caveat: do this testing in good light.

If your camera and lenses don't live up to standards in good light, then Canon can fix them.

If they do live up to the standards in good light, but are worse in poor lighting, I don't believe there's anything they can do, unfortunately, to solve those issues.
Pekka Saarinen said:
A great test scheme:
http://www.hkdotcom.net/Francis%20Photography%20channel/AF_Test/index.htm
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
What would you consider "good light", David?

EV values mean nothing to me.....can you give an equivalent ISO, f-stop, shutter speed level of brightness?

Thanks,

Doug
DavidP said:
I would add one important caveat: do this testing in good light.

If your camera and lenses don't live up to standards in good light,
then Canon can fix them.

If they do live up to the standards in good light, but are worse in
poor lighting, I don't believe there's anything they can do,
unfortunately, to solve those issues.
Pekka Saarinen said:
A great test scheme:
http://www.hkdotcom.net/Francis%20Photography%20channel/AF_Test/index.htm
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
Click to expand...
 
this would be GREAT.
DavidP said:
thang said:
Why should the consumers have to pay for Canon's fault if the
lenses (Canon's brand) are out of the warranty period. This is
obviously something that Canon should address and pay for all the
cost of calibration. A $1500 body that doesn't "work" well with
Canon's lenses?!?!

Bad marketing strategy and customer service from Canon.
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
Click to expand...
 
I'd shoot in broad daylight, with a front-lit subject.

ISO 100, f/2.8, 1/4000 would be the approximate values.

Sure, your camera should work in better light than that.

But if you want to check the accuracy of the lens/AF, I'd start with the brightest conditions you can find.
dougmick said:
What would you consider "good light", David?

EV values mean nothing to me.....can you give an equivalent ISO,
f-stop, shutter speed level of brightness?
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
I get different results when I use a test card at a 45 degree angle and when I set up the cereal box test. I show some front focusing when using the test card at 45 degrees. But when I set up a test with everything on the same plane (boxes spaced 1/4 inch in front of and behind the focus point)) the focus is right on. Is it possible that the focus point has more difficulty judging focus when the focal point has more depth?
 
Does your AF sensor perhaps come too close to seeing the lines/marks above and below the main line in that test chart?

Try moving the target closer, or using a longer focal length.

Your center AF sensor should always be VERY far away from anything but that one single line . . . and I assume you're using only the center AF point?
Jeff Pitman said:
I get different results when I use a test card at a 45 degree angle
and when I set up the cereal box test. I show some front focusing
when using the test card at 45 degrees. But when I set up a test
with everything on the same plane (boxes spaced 1/4 inch in front
of and behind the focus point)) the focus is right on. Is it
possible that the focus point has more difficulty judging focus
when the focal point has more depth?
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
V. said:
First of all thanks for the very useful piece of information.

I have tried your test, and it looks like my 28-135 severely front
focus. On the other hand my 70-200 f4 is right on !

What should I do ? Should I just send the defective lens to Canon ?
Or should I also send the camera ?
Click to expand...
This is my current knowhow of the situation:

If you see the problem also in normal shooting and need to have it calibrated you should send in the camera and both lenses. Reason is that you never can really tell if either camera is ok and 70-200 f4 is ok or that camera and 70-200 f4 are similarly off and 28-135 is the one that is actually correct.

Other angle: of course it seems that 28-135 is the one that is off calibration but even a slight change needed in camera calibration to fix it will require that 70-200 f4 should be adjusted also to match new camera settings.

But before you send anything I'd suggest that you try to get in touch the repair shop and ask them what is their view, how to handle the problem.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
 
using no assist light(only OSRAm 20W lamp on the roof) in AF "line" testing and here are some results.
10D + 100mm macro +Manfrotto pro055

Is it true that this is too much for 10D AF ?

crop0286.jpg pic focusing in the middle of the Big line. 1/30sec and f 2.8 using tripod (Manfrotto pro 055)and distance 0,8m



crop0290.jpg pic focusing in the middle of the Big line. 1/30sec and f 2.8 using tripod and distance 1,39m



crop0288.jpg pic focusing in the middle of the Big line. 1/30sec and f 2.8 using tripod and distance 2,86m



thx for any decent comments
  • Ari -
DavidP said:
If everything works in good light, but inaccuracies develop in
poorer light, I don't think there's much Canon can do about it.
You've simply exceeded the capabilities of the AF sensors.
Ari Riutto said:
HI pekka, and thank You for Your comments here in dpreview and
Canon digital forum. And plz keep on iinforming about DSLR findings
even if some ppls cannot understand it ;)

I bought 10D and 100mm macro. I got them just b4 Easter.
Closeups are good. In bright light conditions long distance
shooting seem to be allright. If light poor I have little bit
focusing difficulties with AF. In that "line-test" I got
backfocusing even using f's like 5.6 or more.

My question to You is if I decide to send my 10D to Canon service
here in Finland could You please recommend the place I should send
it?
I have bought it from German netshop.
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
Click to expand...
 
Ok, I looked closer at my tests and do actually notice this - moreso with my 70-200 f/4. The 28-70 is a bit more focused behind the "0" mark too than in front, but not as noticeable as the 70-200.

My lenses and 10D must be fine then.
Pekka Saarinen said:
Brian Semotiuk said:
OOF seemed
fairly evenly distributed left to right of the "0" mark.
Click to expand...
Theoretically 2/3 of focused area should be behind "0" and 1/3
before. But I'm happy if it is evenly around, too.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
Click to expand...
--

Canon 10D, 28-70 f/2.8L USM, 28-135 3.5/5.6 USM IS, 70-200 4L USM, 50 1.8 II, 420EX Flash.
 
I ran tests on my D60 and it was consistent and for general purposes right on. My 10D was inconsistent (my biggest concern) and it was off. I ran in oneshot and servo in servo 10D little further off sometimes D60 still dead on. My camera and now lenses are at service hopefully see them back Friday. The interesting point is they tested body it came up front focusing although my tests showed back focus scary. I can only hope they make it right.

Scot
Adam2 said:
Diane B said:
work_permit said:
I'm obviously new to the canon forum, and the whole focus "debate".
My request is genuine, as is my respect for pekka's test. To run a
true "scientific" test, we should compare the 10D shots to other
cameras.
Click to expand...
If so, it would probably need to be a camera similar like a D60/30
with the same lens and crop factor, don't you think?

Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
B/W lover, but color is seducing me
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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