Formatting CF cards

Hello Fello Members,

I have read many of the numerous threads relating to CF cards & corruption problems. I have a few questions & thought I might see what others think in regard to this.

I have read recently in at least 2 publications ( Better Digital an Australian Magazine) the other I can't remember, that we should be formatting our CF cards frequently ie: each time we delete photos the card should be formatted. This apparently prevents corruption of the media.

I have used several cards in my old point & shoot camera & on noticing the photo count to be less than usual I formatted the card. Problem solved & have since continued along that path ie: frequent formatting. BTW I always use my card reader & delete via the PC. The cards are now 3 years old & still going strong.

Are the problems with the CF cards just related to the S602 or in fact other Fuji cameras, or is this something occuring across the board? My old camera is a Kodak DC280.

What I am wondering, could the corruption problems people are having be the result of not formatting the cards frequently enough? Does anyone think that frequent formatting (in camera) could reduce the possibilty of corruption problems?

Just curious.
--
Terri

tmb777 said:

TMB777 wrote:
Hello Fello Members,
I have read recently in at least 2 publications ( Better Digital an
Australian Magazine) the other I can't remember, that we should be
formatting our CF cards frequently ie: each time we delete photos
the card should be formatted. This apparently prevents corruption
of the media.
I have used several cards in my old point & shoot camera & on
noticing the photo count to be less than usual I formatted the
card. Problem solved & have since continued along that path ie:
frequent formatting. BTW I always use my card reader & delete via
the PC. The cards are now 3 years old & still going strong.
Are the problems with the CF cards just related to the S602 or in
fact other Fuji cameras, or is this something occuring across the
board? My old camera is a Kodak DC280.
What I am wondering, could the corruption problems people are
having be the result of not formatting the cards frequently enough?
Does anyone think that frequent formatting (in camera) could reduce
the possibilty of corruption problems?
Terri

Click to expand...

I bought my 602 in October & formatted the Ridata 256 CF card once then.
I HAVE NOT FORMATTED IT SINCE.
I have ALWAYS deleted the pix in my card reader. NEVER had any trouble.

Using the 602, I snapped a small 640x480 picture of a piece of paper with DO NOT DELETE written on it. I transferred the mem card in my reader and made the file 'READ ONLY'. Now when I take pix they number up from the DND file. After each photo session I put the mem card in the reader, MOVE the new files to harddrive and rename the DND file to the last number pic I took. (It asks if I want to rename the READ ONLY file & I answer yes. I started numbering my 128MB Smartmedia card from 0001 and the 256MB CF card from 5000. Repeat - NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS SINCE OCTOBER - 4500 PICTURES.

--
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php
NZKiwi, S602Z, Sunpak 383, ExpoDisc

Don, not formatting will result in fragmentation. This will slow access to the card, as there is more work to traverse the FAT. It is not as bad as on rotating memory, but you should format once in a while. Just copy NDF to your hard drive format, and then copy it back with the new number.

Morris

DomT said:

DomT said:

TMB777 wrote:
Hello Fello Members,
I have read recently in at least 2 publications ( Better Digital an
Australian Magazine) the other I can't remember, that we should be
formatting our CF cards frequently ie: each time we delete photos
the card should be formatted. This apparently prevents corruption
of the media.
I have used several cards in my old point & shoot camera & on
noticing the photo count to be less than usual I formatted the
card. Problem solved & have since continued along that path ie:
frequent formatting. BTW I always use my card reader & delete via
the PC. The cards are now 3 years old & still going strong.
Are the problems with the CF cards just related to the S602 or in
fact other Fuji cameras, or is this something occuring across the
board? My old camera is a Kodak DC280.
What I am wondering, could the corruption problems people are
having be the result of not formatting the cards frequently enough?
Does anyone think that frequent formatting (in camera) could reduce
the possibilty of corruption problems?
Terri

Click to expand...

I bought my 602 in October & formatted the Ridata 256 CF card once
then.
I HAVE NOT FORMATTED IT SINCE.
I have ALWAYS deleted the pix in my card reader. NEVER had any
trouble.
Using the 602, I snapped a small 640x480 picture of a piece of
paper with DO NOT DELETE written on it. I transferred the mem card
in my reader and made the file 'READ ONLY'. Now when I take pix
they number up from the DND file. After each photo session I put
the mem card in the reader, MOVE the new files to harddrive and
rename the DND file to the last number pic I took. (It asks if I
want to rename the READ ONLY file & I answer yes. I started
numbering my 128MB Smartmedia card from 0001 and the 256MB CF card
from 5000. Repeat - NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS SINCE OCTOBER - 4500
PICTURES.

--
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php
NZKiwi, S602Z, Sunpak 383, ExpoDisc

Click to expand...

I assume that cluster management (under a FAT file system) works the same in a memory card in a camera as it does on a floppy disk, hard drive, etc. in a computer. The following is based on that assumption.

I would expect that if all the files on a card are deleted (maybe all but one - we Fuji fans know why one might do that!)) and then we write new files to it (without reformatting), fragmentation would avoided.

Normally, fragmentation occurs if we write a bunch of files,then delete some (leaving others), then write some more, etc (including what happens if we "overwrite" files, since that results in essentially deleting the old version and then wrting the new version).

If that is in fact the mode in which a camera user uses the storage medium, then an occasional reformat would probably be beneficial.

(For all I know, a defragmentation facility would work on a CF card, too. I may try that in my copious free time!)

Doug Kerr

Just so you don't feel that the Fuji 602 is the only camera experiencing CF problems, see:

Oly
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1008&message=4830898

Minolta
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&message=4895884

Canon
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=4861376

I am beginning to think that CF cards aren't as standardized as most people would think.

Steve Simpkin

TMB777 said:

Hello Fello Members,

I have read many of the numerous threads relating to CF cards &
corruption problems. I have a few questions & thought I might see
what others think in regard to this.

I have read recently in at least 2 publications ( Better Digital an
Australian Magazine) the other I can't remember, that we should be
formatting our CF cards frequently ie: each time we delete photos
the card should be formatted. This apparently prevents corruption
of the media.

I have used several cards in my old point & shoot camera & on
noticing the photo count to be less than usual I formatted the
card. Problem solved & have since continued along that path ie:
frequent formatting. BTW I always use my card reader & delete via
the PC. The cards are now 3 years old & still going strong.

Are the problems with the CF cards just related to the S602 or in
fact other Fuji cameras, or is this something occuring across the
board? My old camera is a Kodak DC280.

What I am wondering, could the corruption problems people are
having be the result of not formatting the cards frequently enough?
Does anyone think that frequent formatting (in camera) could reduce
the possibilty of corruption problems?

Just curious.
--
Terri

Click to expand...

Thanks, guys for your suggestions of fragmentation problems. The cam still says the card will hold the same number of pix as it did initially. But I rarely fill it in one session, so haven't put it to the test.

My answer was really to demonstrate to the initial questioner that with a good card there are no problems & continual reformatting doesn't 'improve' the card.
--
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php
NZKiwi, S602Z, Sunpak 383, ExpoDisc

Steve a great set of links to soothe the bruised egos of 602 users with compact flash problems. I can now say "We are not alone" concidering the problems that Olympus, Minolta, Canon users have with larger CF cards.

My problem in trying to reformat a set of 256 MB 25x Ridata cards to give full card VGA video now seem small.

At least the 602 works correctly after saving 70 seconds of avi. I only wish that compact flash manufactures were forced to quote the write speed and not the read speed.

So every body check out the 3 links below, have a cup of your favourite brew and gloat.
MrMagoo

Steve Simpkin said:

Oly
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1008&message=4830898

Minolta
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&message=4895884

Canon
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=4861376

I am beginning to think that CF cards aren't as standardized as
most people would think.

Steve Simpkin

TMB777 said:

Hello Fello Members,

I have read many of the numerous threads relating to CF cards &
corruption problems. I have a few questions & thought I might see
what others think in regard to this.

I have read recently in at least 2 publications ( Better Digital an
Australian Magazine) the other I can't remember, that we should be
formatting our CF cards frequently ie: each time we delete photos
the card should be formatted. This apparently prevents corruption
of the media.

I have used several cards in my old point & shoot camera & on
noticing the photo count to be less than usual I formatted the
card. Problem solved & have since continued along that path ie:
frequent formatting. BTW I always use my card reader & delete via
the PC. The cards are now 3 years old & still going strong.

Are the problems with the CF cards just related to the S602 or in
fact other Fuji cameras, or is this something occuring across the
board? My old camera is a Kodak DC280.

What I am wondering, could the corruption problems people are
having be the result of not formatting the cards frequently enough?
Does anyone think that frequent formatting (in camera) could reduce
the possibilty of corruption problems?

Just curious.
--
Terri

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

MrMagoo said:

MrMagoo wrote:
At least the 602 works correctly after saving 70 seconds of avi. I
only wish that compact flash manufactures were forced to quote the
write speed and not the read speed.
MrMagoo

Click to expand...

Ridata do! http://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=53

And did you read the CF database? http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007
--
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php
NZKiwi, S602Z, Sunpak 383, ExpoDisc

Doug,

The floppy disk uses 12 bit FAT. Depending on which OS you are using to work with a FAT device, the behavior is different. Back in the DOS days, all free clusters were marked with x’ff’. As the disks got bigger, this became a very inefficient way to mark the available space, so in 16 bit FAT entries, a few different methods are added. The first is the available chain, in which free space is a file chain just like any file. This reduced the search time for free space, but resulted in free space fragmentation. Later FAT 16 was enhanced with markers x’fc’, x’fd’, and x’fe’ to indicate free space that has been used. Only Microsoft seems to understand the different flags. The OS would always choose to allocate from the block with x’ff’ (the available pool following the format) first, and then would use the others. This was the beginning of fragmentation avoidance and did improve performance. It also left nice large blocks for a disk defragmenter to fill in.

Morris

Doug Kerr said:

I assume that cluster management (under a FAT file system) works
the same in a memory card in a camera as it does on a floppy disk,
hard drive, etc. in a computer. The following is based on that
assumption.

I would expect that if all the files on a card are deleted (maybe
all but one - we Fuji fans know why one might do that!)) and then
we write new files to it (without reformatting), fragmentation
would avoided.

Normally, fragmentation occurs if we write a bunch of files,then
delete some (leaving others), then write some more, etc (including
what happens if we "overwrite" files, since that results in
essentially deleting the old version and then wrting the new
version).

If that is in fact the mode in which a camera user uses the storage
medium, then an occasional reformat would probably be beneficial.

(For all I know, a defragmentation facility would work on a CF
card, too. I may try that in my copious free time!)

Doug Kerr

Click to expand...

Well, it is possible to get fragmentation even if all files are deleted.

When you delete a file, it's clusters are placed in the "free space chain", the chaing that links available clusters.

However, they are kept in this chain in the sequence that they were in when the file was active (before it was erased).

The reason that this is done is to facilitate recovery of erased files by "undelete" utilities.

However, a consequence of this is that there can be a difference between "erased" space and space that was never recorded, and since an erased file's clusters are kept together, with the most recently erased files at the end of the free space chain, you can get fragmentation of free space by erasing files rather than by formatting them.

In practice, this is probably irrelevant to the S602 except for video recording.

Also, the exact details of this vary from version to verion of MS-DOS and Windows, and indeed the S602 may NOT behave in this manner, since it's not even running DOS or Windows, but it is manipulating a "DOS disk [device]". But Fuji may not have followed all of the MS conventions in this regard.

Also, it's possible that "erase all" really does do a "quick" format, rather than just erase the files.

I can't be sure what's going on, but I just wanted to help people understand that fragmentation of the blank space of a disk device (including a flash card) is definitely possible, whether it actually occurs in the S602 or not.

Doug Kerr said:

I assume that cluster management (under a FAT file system) works
the same in a memory card in a camera as it does on a floppy disk,
hard drive, etc. in a computer. The following is based on that
assumption.

I would expect that if all the files on a card are deleted (maybe
all but one - we Fuji fans know why one might do that!)) and then
we write new files to it (without reformatting), fragmentation
would avoided.

Normally, fragmentation occurs if we write a bunch of files,then
delete some (leaving others), then write some more, etc (including
what happens if we "overwrite" files, since that results in
essentially deleting the old version and then wrting the new
version).

If that is in fact the mode in which a camera user uses the storage
medium, then an occasional reformat would probably be beneficial.

(For all I know, a defragmentation facility would work on a CF
card, too. I may try that in my copious free time!)

Doug Kerr

Click to expand...

DomT said:

Ridata do!

http://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=53

And did you read the CF database?
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007
--
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php
NZKiwi, S602Z, Sunpak 383, ExpoDisc

Click to expand...

Yup. That is exaxtly the cards I have, same package.

In XP Pro I reformated both and 8k allocation blocks gave me 36 sec. 16k 61 sec and 32 k gave 70 sec. I verified to make sure that the card had the correct block size. The funny thing is that the offical specifications table (1st URL) does not even list a 256 MB card for Ridata. Ritek websites seem to be down, at least they are today. Under controller manufacturer it shows unknown Taiwan make. The 20x is not marked on the card only 0n the plastic case insert. My theory is either I got older stock or the diskcontroller on the 256MB has a slower controller chip. I bought them from Ebay so it is not worth the hassle to try to exhange them . I am not planing movies regularely so 60 sec will doe me.
MrMagoo

MrMagoo said:

MrMagoo wrote:
In XP Pro I reformated both and 8k allocation blocks gave me 36
sec. 16k 61 sec and 32 k gave 70 sec.

Click to expand...

That's a bit odd! My 256 Ridata gives 75 seconds unreformatted... if you know what I mean. I have WinMe & cannot find a way to reformat.

MrMagoo said:

I verified to make sure that
the card had the correct block size. The funny thing is that the
offical specifications table (1st URL) does not even list a 256 MB
card for Ridata.

Click to expand...

It is here but not in the capacity list at the bottom of the page. I think what they mean is 'other capacities available': http://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=53

--
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php
NZKiwi, S602Z, Sunpak 383, ExpoDisc

Yah I am sure got a repackaged older cards.

Read the #2 in the official Ritek FAQ at : http://www.ritek.com.tw/ritek_e/support/faq/fmc.htm
Acording to FAQ they do not garantee any particular speed

I guess that is one reason they don't show the speed on either the card or the printed plastic case insert. In stead they just slap the little yellow sticker the case which say's 20X speed. Sure mine is 20x read but not write. Before going to the 8k block size all I got was something like 22 seconds.
MrMagoo

DomT said:

DomT said:

MrMagoo wrote:
In XP Pro I reformated both and 8k allocation blocks gave me 36
sec. 16k 61 sec and 32 k gave 70 sec.

Click to expand...

That's a bit odd! My 256 Ridata gives 75 seconds unreformatted...
if you know what I mean. I have WinMe & cannot find a way to
reformat.

DomT said:

I verified to make sure that
the card had the correct block size. The funny thing is that the
offical specifications table (1st URL) does not even list a 256 MB
card for Ridata.

Click to expand...

It is here but not in the capacity list at the bottom of the page.
I think what they mean is 'other capacities available':

http://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=53

--
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php
NZKiwi, S602Z, Sunpak 383, ExpoDisc

Click to expand...

Morris,

Thanks for the fill in on the details. I hadn't looked into the details since the time when there was only one "unused" marker.

Best regards,

Doug

So are there any CF cards that will write a movie to the full capacity without reformatting? I have a Mac and can't reformat. (Bummer) I'm going to get either a 256 or 512 and don't want to waste my $$$. Thanks!

Dave

Microracer said:

So are there any CF cards that will write a movie to the full
capacity without reformatting? I have a Mac and can't reformat.
(Bummer) I'm going to get either a 256 or 512 and don't want to

Click to expand...

The only one with 100% reports is the 30x Transcend

--
cheers!

Gunn

Hi!

Just bought Transcend 1GB x30 for £153 in UK.

Put in my M603 and it gave me 14 m 38 sec at VGA 30 fps (from the box). Even didn't know format cluster.
And stoped when left 2 sec.? Why, don't know. Then recorded these 2 secs.

So evthg is OK.
Only another card that will allow this is Lexar x32 or x40 (but price).

BUT!!!

I pluged the card into my PCMCIA adapter and tryed to play it...no smooth play, just not enough reading speed?

Then copied it to hard disks, again ? - copy longed 16 mins, and processor usage was 100% all along (P4 2GHz), so may be speed of reading with PCMCIA depends on the processor?

But I thouhgt it would copy faster than USB.

And what happened then??? Ha!

Again no smooth play from HD (Windows player, winamp tryed). System: Dell P4m, 256 OU, ATI Radeon 32 mb.

But there are no problems with small AVIs (30-100 mb), played OK!

So THE ? is what is the min sys. reqs for playing big AVIs?
Anyone knows these tricks?
And what about PCMCIA 32bit?

Thanks!