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Thomas Gardner

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While out saving the world from insect invasions, I get the pleasure of being able to sit at the kitchen table with my customers. Just as I'm chatty here, I'm chatty there also:-) We can all act surprised:-)

With that in mind, the conversation of photography came up; more surprised faces:-) The customer and husband were both into photography and been members of a San Jose camera club.

She commented about how she had submitted an image to the camera clubs three judged at the monthly meeting and the short of the very pleasant story, they ripped her image.

She took the same image and submitted it to a multi-state contest and took best in show. Same image...... totally different results.

Now the point of this posting has to do with perception of an image and your experiences with other people's reactions to your images and what "really" is an excellent image!

Example for though; Duchamp's and "Nude Decending a Staircase". This was clearly an avante garde image that introduced three dimentional thinking into a two dimensional world of painterly art that added the dynamics of movement to the image. By the traditional thinking of the Photo-Realists of the time and the Pointalists of the time this was some wacked out stuff.

http://www.beatmuseum.org/duchamp/nude2.html

Valid or invalid?

I posted an image here and it was shredded by the animals that live in the zoo, but on photo.net it was well received and based on the comments, some even enjoyed the photographic humor.

(Image/comment were posted as nothing more then a personal example.)

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1256675

What came out of the conversation this morning is that the acceptance of an image is very dependent on the individual that's looking at the image.

I went to a customer's art show and thought her images of "Women in the Bible", done in acrylic were wonderful interpretations but others I know, didn't like this sort of art. Does that make the artist invalid because someone didn't like the images. Does it make an artist valid because others do like the image?

Hence the question to be pondered by all the intellectuals and non-intellectuals that poke around among these posts on this forum.....

What constitues a valid image?

Is an image not valid if it doesn't get approved of by a panel of camera club critics? Is a critique only valid if it's a tri-state competition and the image gets at least an honorable mention? Are all the other submitted images invalid that don't get so much as an honorable mention? Is an image invalid if it doesn't pass muster on dpreview.com but passes muster on photo.net?

What makes a valid image? Is it valid, only if it follows some rule of composition? Is it valid only if the image has no distractions in it, such as a piece of trash. How about, is it valid only if the image has no negative space. What makes the image valid, what constitues an invalid image.

Is it like the definition of porn? "I don't know how to define it but I sure know it when I see it."

I hope you don't find the rambling to distracting as I wanted to post the point of the conversation and get your indepth reaction to the questions above as this ties into photography and what it is your doing and validity of what it is you're currently doing today.
 
Thomas Gardner said:
What came out of the conversation this morning is that the
acceptance of an image is very dependent on the individual that's
looking at the image.
Click to expand...
Yup. Comes back to the basic difference between what you sense, and what you perceive.
Thomas Gardner said:
What constitues a valid image?
Click to expand...
Is there any such thing as a not valid image? If I put the lens cap on and hit the shutter, is what I get a "valid" image? To whom, and for what? Someone might be interested in standard deviations at different ISO speeds ... and someone else might be interested in some kind of "artistic statement" I might be making...
Thomas Gardner said:
What makes a valid image? Is it valid, only if it follows some
rule of composition? Is it valid only if the image has no
distractions in it, such as a piece of trash. How about, is it
valid only if the image has no negative space. What makes the
image valid, what constitues an invalid image.
Click to expand...
Sadly ... this one has some trash in the background, and I personally don't like it nearly as much as I would, if I had had more space at the time, to put the clutter somewhere else:

 
Thomas Gardner said:
While out saving the world from insect invasions, I get the
pleasure of being able to sit at the kitchen table with my
customers. Just as I'm chatty here, I'm chatty there also:-) We
can all act surprised:-)

With that in mind, the conversation of photography came up; more
surprised faces:-) The customer and husband were both into
photography and been members of a San Jose camera club.

She commented about how she had submitted an image to the camera
clubs three judged at the monthly meeting and the short of the very
pleasant story, they ripped her image.

She took the same image and submitted it to a multi-state contest
and took best in show. Same image...... totally different results.

Now the point of this posting has to do with perception of an image
and your experiences with other people's reactions to your images
and what "really" is an excellent image!

Example for though; Duchamp's and "Nude Decending a Staircase".
This was clearly an avante garde image that introduced three
dimentional thinking into a two dimensional world of painterly art
that added the dynamics of movement to the image. By the
traditional thinking of the Photo-Realists of the time and the
Pointalists of the time this was some wacked out stuff.

http://www.beatmuseum.org/duchamp/nude2.html

Valid or invalid?

I posted an image here and it was shredded by the animals that live
in the zoo, but on photo.net it was well received and based on the
comments, some even enjoyed the photographic humor.

(Image/comment were posted as nothing more then a personal example.)

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1256675

What came out of the conversation this morning is that the
acceptance of an image is very dependent on the individual that's
looking at the image.

I went to a customer's art show and thought her images of "Women in
the Bible", done in acrylic were wonderful interpretations but
others I know, didn't like this sort of art. Does that make the
artist invalid because someone didn't like the images. Does it
make an artist valid because others do like the image?

Hence the question to be pondered by all the intellectuals and
non-intellectuals that poke around among these posts on this
forum.....

What constitues a valid image?

Is an image not valid if it doesn't get approved of by a panel of
camera club critics? Is a critique only valid if it's a tri-state
competition and the image gets at least an honorable mention? Are
all the other submitted images invalid that don't get so much as an
honorable mention? Is an image invalid if it doesn't pass muster
on dpreview.com but passes muster on photo.net?

What makes a valid image? Is it valid, only if it follows some
rule of composition? Is it valid only if the image has no
distractions in it, such as a piece of trash. How about, is it
valid only if the image has no negative space. What makes the
image valid, what constitues an invalid image.

Is it like the definition of porn? "I don't know how to define it
but I sure know it when I see it."

I hope you don't find the rambling to distracting as I wanted to
post the point of the conversation and get your indepth reaction to
the questions above as this ties into photography and what it is
your doing and validity of what it is you're currently doing today.
Click to expand...
One mans garbage is another mans treasure...

What's so new about this philosophy?

Its an old story.. Some like black, some like white...

I find "most" of the images that I have seen from people who "claim" they are photographers or wannabee's are just fine by me. The photos are tastefully done and look ok..

I dont know what all the fuss is about.

Murphy
 
There is a Prime example, even ignoring the "Club Elite" there who vote for each others photos, you can submit a pic of a rusty Beer barrel and get 100 thumbs, but submit a beautiful misty landscape and get 3 !! - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it doesn't just apply to Women - Photos too ! ..

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

 
I have posted images on PhotoSig and since I will never be a member of Club Elite, I rarely get more than 20-40 points.

People will leave comments wondering why one of images is not at the top...but that is usually because:
1. Not a member of Club Elite
2. Subject matter - flowers, scenes, moon, sunsets and no nudes

--
RichO :)
San Antonio, TX
http://www.equipu.com
http://www.pbase.com/richo/
'Life is a dance, Love is the music.'
 
Some of your wonderul sunset shots are worth more than ALL of the "Elite" thumbs put together ! .. if anyone deserves a DSLR it's YOU!

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

 
For me, part of the fun of taking pictures and showing them to people is seeing which people like which ones. Different people like different things: colors, shapes, moods, various subjects. Load almost any picture into Photoshop, hit Ctrl-I, then print. A fair % of people will like the result, just because it's different than what they usually see.
 
Thomas Gardner said:
What makes a valid image? Is it valid, only if it follows some
rule of composition? Is it valid only if the image has no
distractions in it, such as a piece of trash. How about, is it
valid only if the image has no negative space. What makes the
image valid, what constitues an invalid image.
Click to expand...
Thomas,

I undeerstand and agree with your point of view. Perhaps a better question should be: "What makes a criticism valid?"

In my checkered career I was at one point a composer of what was called "experimental music." When I was young I heard a concert of very avant garde music and was furious at the composers for not controlling and sahping their work. I thought they were giving modern music and composers a bad name.

20 years later I found myself in a college classroom, playing those very compositions for my students. It had taken me years to actually grasp what those composers were doing, and the pieces had become my favorites.

It's a very humbling experience, and when I see art (pointing, photography, music, etc.) I say only "I like it" or "I don't like it." I don't comment on its "validity" any more.

What I find most curious is why some people set themselves up as "Gatekeepers of the Aesthetic." This is not to say that a given image cannot be improved, within its own framework. But to define it as art or non-art is sad, IMHO.

--
Walter K
 
Why do you think I concentrate on the TECHNICAL aspects of picture-taking so much? At least there's much less debate about THAT. Granted, one can always argue about how to expose for a shot in a club: accurate (dark), or inaccurate (contrasty and bright). But then that's not really a technical question. The technical issue is "did you get what you intended to attain?"

This is also why I ignore "rules" like the "rule of thirds". Heck, you can't even get people to agree on what that rule exactly is.

So, I shoot what I like. Some people like some of the shots, some like others, some like none at all. Such is life.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
WalterK said:
I undeerstand and agree with your point of view. Perhaps a better
question should be: "What makes a criticism valid?"
Click to expand...
I think you painted the other side of the coin with your comment. I like your comment about "What makes a criticism valid?" I like to add, what makes the person critiquing the image valid.

It sort of like hearing someone talk about the meaning of a poem and what the author was trying to convey.

So I asked the instructor what the meaning the "this" poem was. She went way wide of the mark. How did I know:-) Trick question.... as you guessed, I wrote the poem and knew my intent when it was written:-)

So are the critiquers opinions valid in that do they know if the image sucessfully conveys the meaning/intent of the artist?
 
Thomas,

To cut to the chase, there is no such thing as an invalid image. If enough people are willing to pay the price you want for it, then it is a successful commercial image whether that means many small sales or one large sale.

I recently joined a nearby camera club that has a monthly judged competition. They normally use a guest judge although in an emergency they will put together a panel to judge entries. Unlike the rules of law, the guest uses whatever criteria they choose to judge the pictures. This judge liked one picture because she didn't understand it and disliked another because she didn't understand it. Very subjective to say the least!

I will not rigidly follow the rule of thirds. One judge will call my work imaginative, another will call it poor composition. To be honest I won't give much weight to any one judge's words, good or bad.

I will join in the competitions soon just to get critiques both from the judges and my fellow photographers however in the final analysis only one or two opinions matter. Mine and the person I am trying to sell a copy to if I choose to sell a picture.

If you keep your work inside the box it will be called dull and bland. If you go outside the box your work will be loved and hated with few people being indifferent. I shoot anything I am in the mood to shoot however I think it might suit me. I'll have to see if it suits anybody else.

Concerning your work, it matters little that the people on one forum who chose to post panned it while the people who chose to post on another forum liked it. Did the photograph achieve your objectives? Do you like it?

Seems like a line from an old song fits perfectly here, "you can't please everyone so you have to please yourself."

Hu
 
Hu said:
Concerning your work, it matters little that the people on one
forum who chose to post panned it while the people who chose to
post on another forum liked it. Did the photograph achieve your
objectives? Do you like it?
Click to expand...
As to the example of my work, it was included only as a personal example of the two sides of the coin, nothing more.
 
This is an interesting issue you raise and bring up for discussion. I have had photos that have been poorly received on one forum and then get photo of the day on another site. I wondered about this and realize variety is the spice of life and what makes the world go around. I realize that in my everyday life these types of diverse opinions occur all the time. When i review research grants for the govt there can be a very wide range of opinion on the value of a set of proposals. We are all experts in the field but yet we have very different perceptions and interpretations. Sure some photos/proposals are so poor or fantastic taht there is unlikely to be much differences of opinion. One of my colleagues send the same proposal to two different groups to be evaluated and one scored in the top 3% while the other group placed it less than 50%. I handed the same paper in to two classes in college (dont tell anyone) and one got a B- and the other professor made a statement in front of the whole class about how much she liked it and made me come and discuss it with her after class.

I have learned that with my photography, I like to get feedback and learn of technical flaws as well as artistic opinions so that ii can make a judgement. If there is a technical problem, I can fix that with a new shot. If there is an issue related to the artistic value of a photo, I can take the opinions and then decide if in my mind they are valuable or just represent a difference of view on art.
Thomas Gardner said:
While out saving the world from insect invasions, I get the
pleasure of being able to sit at the kitchen table with my
customers. Just as I'm chatty here, I'm chatty there also:-) We
can all act surprised:-)

With that in mind, the conversation of photography came up; more
surprised faces:-) The customer and husband were both into
photography and been members of a San Jose camera club.

She commented about how she had submitted an image to the camera
clubs three judged at the monthly meeting and the short of the very
pleasant story, they ripped her image.

She took the same image and submitted it to a multi-state contest
and took best in show. Same image...... totally different results.

Now the point of this posting has to do with perception of an image
and your experiences with other people's reactions to your images
and what "really" is an excellent image!

Example for though; Duchamp's and "Nude Decending a Staircase".
This was clearly an avante garde image that introduced three
dimentional thinking into a two dimensional world of painterly art
that added the dynamics of movement to the image. By the
traditional thinking of the Photo-Realists of the time and the
Pointalists of the time this was some wacked out stuff.

http://www.beatmuseum.org/duchamp/nude2.html

Valid or invalid?

I posted an image here and it was shredded by the animals that live
in the zoo, but on photo.net it was well received and based on the
comments, some even enjoyed the photographic humor.

(Image/comment were posted as nothing more then a personal example.)

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1256675

What came out of the conversation this morning is that the
acceptance of an image is very dependent on the individual that's
looking at the image.

I went to a customer's art show and thought her images of "Women in
the Bible", done in acrylic were wonderful interpretations but
others I know, didn't like this sort of art. Does that make the
artist invalid because someone didn't like the images. Does it
make an artist valid because others do like the image?

Hence the question to be pondered by all the intellectuals and
non-intellectuals that poke around among these posts on this
forum.....

What constitues a valid image?

Is an image not valid if it doesn't get approved of by a panel of
camera club critics? Is a critique only valid if it's a tri-state
competition and the image gets at least an honorable mention? Are
all the other submitted images invalid that don't get so much as an
honorable mention? Is an image invalid if it doesn't pass muster
on dpreview.com but passes muster on photo.net?

What makes a valid image? Is it valid, only if it follows some
rule of composition? Is it valid only if the image has no
distractions in it, such as a piece of trash. How about, is it
valid only if the image has no negative space. What makes the
image valid, what constitues an invalid image.

Is it like the definition of porn? "I don't know how to define it
but I sure know it when I see it."

I hope you don't find the rambling to distracting as I wanted to
post the point of the conversation and get your indepth reaction to
the questions above as this ties into photography and what it is
your doing and validity of what it is you're currently doing today.
Click to expand...
 
Well i was trying to find a way to express what little artistic skills i might harbor-- so i picked photography.. perhaps to get away from my daily routine.
DaIvidP said:
Why do you think I concentrate on the TECHNICAL aspects of
picture-taking so much? At least there's much less debate about
THAT. Granted, one can always argue about how to expose for a shot
in a club: accurate (dark), or inaccurate (contrasty and bright).
But then that's not really a technical question. The technical
issue is "did you get what you intended to attain?"

This is also why I ignore "rules" like the "rule of thirds".
Heck, you can't even get people to agree on what that rule exactly
is.

So, I shoot what I like. Some people like some of the shots, some
like others, some like none at all. Such is life.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
Click to expand...
 
Give 3TU to evry photo with the following critique: "I like your picture. Look at mine."

If I wanted to, I bet I could create a porogram to automatically do this to ever new photo on Photosig and have it run in the background very 5 minutes. Would be kind of fun to see what happened.

Scott
RichO said:
I have posted images on PhotoSig and since I will never be a member
of Club Elite, I rarely get more than 20-40 points.

People will leave comments wondering why one of images is not at
the top...but that is usually because:
1. Not a member of Club Elite
2. Subject matter - flowers, scenes, moon, sunsets and no nudes

--
RichO :)
San Antonio, TX
http://www.equipu.com
http://www.pbase.com/richo/
'Life is a dance, Love is the music.'
Click to expand...
 
nice...

Since everyone knows I'm a hobby photographer, I sometimes get called upon at work to take pictures of circuit boards and assemblies for manufacturing instruction books. I don't have any of those images right now though.

--

I just want to take really spectacular pictures of my vacations, pets, family, projects, and drunk friends.
 
Thomas Gardner said:
What makes a valid image?
Click to expand...
...in any genuine attempt at expression, ...and is independent of ANYONE'S "approval".

To like, or not-like is the subjective right of any viewer, but does not affect the "validity" of an image.

An artist/photographer who envisions an image, and puts creative effort and whatever skill they possess into capturing/presenting that image, ...offers viewers the product of his/her imagination and talent.

The level/amount of either does not determine the validity of the act.

Results notwithstanding, a sincere ATTEMPT is all ANYONE can offer to the world, ...thus "valid".

To me the validity comes from the real involvement of the artist in attempting to express "something" as opposed to "just anything". Whether-or-not I can see that same "something" in the finished work is a separate question.

(All MO, of course ;-)

Larry
 
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