Jail Bird . . .

David, you can keep your membership card. Everything you say makes perfect sense. It was still an unsettling experience I had yesterday. I was in plain view... taking those photos, not hiding in the bushes ( which I could have done, and most likely drove away with the photos). The light wasn't right for the alternate view ( the one I posted elsewhere in this thread ).


--
Please visit me at:
http://www.caughtintimephotography.com

Sorry, I lost my reply, here it is:

No risk to your "privileges", I respect and even agree with your opinion about risks at nuclear plants.

IF it's reasonably determined by the appropriate agency that even photographs from a distant public place can be used to present a risk to such a facility (even though I'll bet there's postcards of the plumes floating around; and it's pretty well known that a large amount of information about construction, operations, design, etc. are public domain in both the regulatory process for nuke plants, and in the environmental assessments of their operation) and they properly pass AND PUBLISH a law restricing such activity, who could argue?

It's nice to know that the police are vigilant, because that alone may tend to reduce the risk. Certainly the police could stop and inquire. And if there's an unpublished or unposted law, it should be pointed out with a kind "thank you ma'm". It shouldn't be just a trap for the unwary.

Yes, we could be very secure if we arrested everyone within a certain range of a facility; and we'd certainly rid the streets of jaywalkers if they were shot on sight, but we always have to be aware of the infringement that security places on liberty. And it's not fair or right to place that burden on police.

Security precautions should be debated and they should be rational, and the public should be made aware of them.

It just seems pretty impractical to prohibit photographs from public places. Defining a secure area from which photographs may not be taken, fine. Inquiring of a photographer, fine. But i'm not prepared on this scenario to give up the freedom to photograph.

I realize others may disagree. IF you decide to turn in your camera, please contact me.

Bart

David,

it is very important for a free society to be run by law, and not by fear of what could happen. Yes, a power plant is an attractive target for terrorists, but unless there is a law or a statute prohibiting photographing that object, police cannot interfere with someone taking pictures or confiscate their film/memory cards simply because someone thinks it poses risk.

What is disturbing in Melanie's case, is that the police violated public's rights, instead of affirming them.

Some of the actions of the US government (e.g., Ashcroft's attempts to monitor personal communications, new rules for detention) have been aimed at limiting personal freedom, offering greater security in exchange. But where does this road lead? A totalitarian regime? People should not be afraid to perform legal actions just because someone else thinks they are not good.

T.

David Goolsby said:

I guess I'm going to lose my membership card here in this forum.

I am NOT defending the actions of law enforcement in your case. God
knows, if we think long and hard enough, we can come up with at
least one example where each of us has been harrassed.

But the fact of the matter is that power plants are very attractive
targets to terrorists. And, at least here in America, you can't
take it for granted that all terrorists wear turbans. Let me remind
you of Oklahoma City and the Washington D.C.-area sniper shootings.

But back to my point. Take down a power plant, put a city under
total darkness and chaos, stretch emergency response teams to the
breaking point and you've created enough panic to allow other
targets to be struck with little or no resistance. Just think of
all the things that could happen if a city's resources are
distracted by a power outtage.

Now is Melanie a terrorist taking photos of her next target? I hope
not ;-) But if it so happens AFTER the fact that she was, I feel
pretty safe in saying that once the news got out that law
enforcement could have prevent/deterred/slowed the incident, many
would be crying for the heads of those law enforcement officers.

Now before you go accusing me of being one of those people who live
by "My country, right or wrong" or "America. Love it or leave it"
please know that I am a black male living in America (here it goes,
I've lost my welcome for sure) so I think that qualifies me as
having little reason to side with law enforcement out of any sense
of loyalty or patriotism.

Just my two cents.

Click to expand...

Whew! OK, was worried people would take it the wrong way! Having said what I did I felt I was getting a bit long-winded :-D

Now let me briefly say that I DON'T AGREE with what happened to you. I think it is truly said that we have come to this point. Personally, being the person I am, I would have been making your bed awaiting your arrival. I would have raised every point and argument everyone else stated. I just wanted everyone to be mindful of the time we live in and to be prepared to be questioned about things we normally would not give a second thought to. My true feelings on this (and other matters social or political) are not the what this forum was intended or designed for.

I can surely understand how unsettling it must have left you. In time it won't bother you as much but it will send a chill down your spine if you allow it too. You'll forever now wonder if this is something specific to our current times or if it's always been there and you were blind to it because it had nothing to do for you. In some ways, IMO, you're a better person (you were already a great person from what I seen in your posting in this forum!) because your social conscience level just got raised.

But if you insist on taking such pictures, I have seen some really favorable postings on that Olympus lens attachment. You may want to pick one up and extend your range to a much less 'threatening' distance (JK ;-P)

David

Melanie Kipp said:

David, you can keep your membership card. Everything you say makes
perfect sense. It was still an unsettling experience I had
yesterday. I was in plain view... taking those photos, not hiding
in the bushes ( which I could have done, and most likely drove away
with the photos). The light wasn't right for the alternate view (
the one I posted elsewhere in this thread ).


--
Please visit me at:
http://www.caughtintimephotography.com

Click to expand...

hi...

if the authorities were concerned about you, they might want to look at what is public info on the net...

please understand i am not trying to upset anyone and i support our police officers and others who do thier best to protect us. but it interesting to see what is out there and then compare it to the incident you wrote about....

these are courtesy of our us geological survey

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/addressimage.aspx?t=1&s=10&Lon=-81.84839329&Lat=38.43355122&Alon=-81.84839329&Alat=38.43355122&w=1&opt=0&ref=A%7cPlant+Rd%2c+Nitro%2c+WV+25143

and one from another public site....

http://wvlightning.com/johnamos/

so .... who really is the jail bird now....melanie, the us geological survey, the storm chaseres or ...excuse me, their are some official looking people knocking at my door... -grin-

by the way i was born in charleston...

cheers,

scrubbob

--
Let the wild rumpas begin!
--Where the Wild Things Are.
Maurice Sendak

And i basically never had any expirience like that over here in calm finland... usa starts sounding like a police state when it comes to photographing after 911, which really is sad...

Melanie Kipp said:

... almost. I was doing some IR shooting this afternoon. There is
a coal fueled electric power plant a few miles from here. A
cloudless blue sky... white steam billowing from the cooling towers
( they look like nuclear power plant cooling towers ), some green
leaves to frame it all.... I had about 1/2 of a 256 mb CF card full
when a police officer drove up.

He: " Are you photographing the power plant, Miss? "
Me: " Why, yes I am ! smile "
He: " You can't do that. You know, in this day and age"
Me: " I can't???" incredulous
He: " No, Miss. May I see some ID?"
Needless to say the scene ends with me reformatting the CF card,
then driving away...

Damn, the previews were awesome.

Click to expand...

This sort of thing is cropping up more and more often here. I just read a message from someone who had the FBI knock at his door after taking pictures that included oil reservoirs. These don't look like isolated incidents any more; there's a clear pattern here.

All of this is flagrantly illegal, of course, even in the land of the free and the home of the brave. In your shoes, I would've fought it. (And, not being a US citizen, ended up wearing an orange jumpsuit in Guantanamo, as likely as not...)

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

Petteri Sulonen said:

Melanie Kipp said:

... almost. I was doing some IR shooting this afternoon. There is
a coal fueled electric power plant a few miles from here. A
cloudless blue sky... white steam billowing from the cooling towers
( they look like nuclear power plant cooling towers ), some green
leaves to frame it all.... I had about 1/2 of a 256 mb CF card full
when a police officer drove up.

He: " Are you photographing the power plant, Miss? "
Me: " Why, yes I am ! smile "
He: " You can't do that. You know, in this day and age"
Me: " I can't???" incredulous
He: " No, Miss. May I see some ID?"
Needless to say the scene ends with me reformatting the CF card,
then driving away...

Damn, the previews were awesome.

Click to expand...

This sort of thing is cropping up more and more often here. I just
read a message from someone who had the FBI knock at his door after
taking pictures that included oil reservoirs. These don't look like
isolated incidents any more; there's a clear pattern here.

All of this is flagrantly illegal, of course, even in the land of
the free and the home of the brave. In your shoes, I would've
fought it. (And, not being a US citizen, ended up wearing an orange
jumpsuit in Guantanamo, as likely as not...)

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

Click to expand...

is not as bad as you think, petteri. however i did resign (at least for now) from making pictures of strategic objects like bridges, power plants, churches and.....god only knows what more. i don't want to be bothered by "security forces" and drive them crazy just because i always give them one question "why?" after "you can't do this sir". and i know that this very simple question makes them very confused most of the times.

and for wearing orange jumpsuit, you have to wear some kind of turban, have beard, speak some strange language (to us) and do or speak some dirty things about kapitalism or so......first. lol.

and you're to valuable for us (minoltians and not only), so don't do anything stupid and don't try to get american breakfast paid by federal government.....LOL
best regards
jack

Jack D. wrote:
[snip]

Jack D. said:

and for wearing orange jumpsuit, you have to wear some kind of
turban, have beard, speak some strange language (to us) and do or
speak some dirty things about kapitalism or so......first. lol.

Click to expand...

Well, I wear a kaffiyeh (for a scarf), have stubble (most of the time), speak a very strange language (Finnish), and have gone on record saying nasty things about (some varieties of) capitalism (and certain other things); besides, my passport is full of stamps from Lebanon. (My old one had Ukrainian entry and exit stamps too; I wonder what kind of alarm bells that would've rung, what with this flap over arms deals.)

IOW, I have a feeling I may be suspicious enough to get into trouble at the border. It could be paranoia... but it might not. I don't think I'll be coming to visit the US any time soon.

Jack D. said:

and you're to valuable for us (minoltians and not only), so don't
do anything stupid and don't try to get american breakfast paid by
federal government.....LOL

Click to expand...

Yeah, I figure it's safest to stay on this side of the pond for now. And I'm not planning on breaking any laws either.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

Melanie

If the local constablary is too tough, we have lots of RN positions out here, and as an RN I don't think a Texas Judge would even think you a threat. Our state board is much more lenient than that. Glad to see another nurse in the forum
Bill Richards, RN, BSN
Deep in the Heart of Texas
(oops time to go take Blue Bonnet pics, later)

Melanie Kipp said:

I regret not trying harder to get away with the photos, but if I
got arrested, even on a bogus charge, my Nursing liscense would be
in jeopardy... the State Board of Nursing would be obligated to
investigate, during which time I wouldn't be able to work. I am
the sole provider for my family, so I can't take such a risk....

Click to expand...

Yes, in the UK the rights are basically identical. You are allowed to take photos of pretty much anything as long as you are on public poperty. Exclusions apply to areas with National security implications, but broadly you're safe if your on public porperty.

I had an argument 2 years ago with a security guard outside a large building in central london, which ended up with me saying "if you don't believe me call the poice" so he did and they told him the same.

Regards

Andy

Athegn said:

Sheldon Koehler said:

I had this printed in my camera bag but just now found the link.
This was posted by someone else on this forum:
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Click to expand...

I wonder if there is a UK expert on this forum who could tell us if
similar rights are in the UK. I suspect there are.

Click to expand...

Melanie,

I have never had problems at John Amos, but back in the late 80's I was photographing trains near Carbide at South Charleston and was told by a security guard that I wasn't allowed to have a camera near the plant. He didn't make me erase the tape, though.

I drive by John Amos every day and that exhaust plume is almost always impressive. Every once in a while I stop and take photos of it from either Nitro or across the river at Poca if the lighting is right.

Dan

Dan, it was Poca's finest who stopped me.

Dan Robinson said:

Melanie,

I have never had problems at John Amos, but back in the late 80's I
was photographing trains near Carbide at South Charleston and was
told by a security guard that I wasn't allowed to have a camera
near the plant. He didn't make me erase the tape, though.

I drive by John Amos every day and that exhaust plume is almost
always impressive. Every once in a while I stop and take photos
of it from either Nitro or across the river at Poca if the lighting
is right.

Dan

Click to expand...

--
Please visit me at:
http://www.caughtintimephotography.com

Andy

Thought that was the case

everyone here is acting like it's the end of the world, law's change, get used to it. you guys can believe what you want but Melanie does not have the right to take pictures of that power plant because she didn't have permission. no, the government is not freaking out and taking away peoples liberties. they are just trying to make this country a safer place for all of us to live in. everyone here seems to want their cake and eat it to. if the government wasn't doing anything to make us safer you all would be complaining. i live right outside of nyc and know first hand what it was like on 9/11. i for one am glad our country is trying to fill in the security holes so people don't have to worry about getting on a plane, or subway or going in a public building. if not taking photos of possible terrorist targets and taking off my shoes at metal detectors in airports will help keep us all safe then i have no problem with that. this is the reality we all live in now, in time this will all pass. you all need to start being realistic.

i'm sorry for this rant and if it angers anyone. some things are a little more important then wether or not someone takes a nice pretty photo.

john grayson said:

everyone here is acting like it's the end of the world, law's
change, get used to it. you guys can believe what you want but
Melanie does not have the right to take pictures of that power
plant because she didn't have permission. no, the government is not
freaking out and taking away peoples liberties. they are just
trying to make this country a safer place for all of us to live in.
everyone here seems to want their cake and eat it to. if the
government wasn't doing anything to make us safer you all would be
complaining. i live right outside of nyc and know first hand what
it was like on 9/11. i for one am glad our country is trying to
fill in the security holes so people don't have to worry about
getting on a plane, or subway or going in a public building. if not
taking photos of possible terrorist targets and taking off my shoes
at metal detectors in airports will help keep us all safe then i
have no problem with that. this is the reality we all live in now,
in time this will all pass. you all need to start being realistic.

i'm sorry for this rant and if it angers anyone. some things are a
little more important then wether or not someone takes a nice
pretty photo.

Click to expand...

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

John, I respect your opinion, but I don't buy it.

Among the things that are more important than pretty pictures is freedom. Indeed, it's worth fighting for.

Sure, i'd accept a policy that is rational and likely to minimize risks, but telling people that can't photograph in public places - in the absence of a defined security area - doesn't seem to me to be one of them. And so far, i'm not particularly impressed with government's or industry's ability to decipher it for us.

I'm rather fond of democracy, another thing worth fighting for.

I'm not sure we're that far apart - i just want to be sure that policies are created and enforced, which restrict liberties without careful consideration.

Bart

If our money is spent preventing public pictures of things that are already in the public domain, then the money is not available to protect us from real danger. I believe we need to examine what will help and what will just waste our money because we don't have unlimited resources. - Jean Ricket

john grayson said:

everyone here is acting like it's the end of the world, law's
change, get used to it. you guys can believe what you want but
Melanie does not have the right to take pictures of that power
plant because she didn't have permission. no, the government is not
freaking out and taking away peoples liberties. they are just
trying to make this country a safer place for all of us to live in.
everyone here seems to want their cake and eat it to. if the
government wasn't doing anything to make us safer you all would be
complaining. i live right outside of nyc and know first hand what
it was like on 9/11. i for one am glad our country is trying to
fill in the security holes so people don't have to worry about
getting on a plane, or subway or going in a public building. if not
taking photos of possible terrorist targets and taking off my shoes
at metal detectors in airports will help keep us all safe then i
have no problem with that. this is the reality we all live in now,
in time this will all pass. you all need to start being realistic.

i'm sorry for this rant and if it angers anyone. some things are a
little more important then wether or not someone takes a nice
pretty photo.

Click to expand...

Melanie Kipp said:

Dan Robinson said:

Melanie,

I have never had problems at John Amos, but back in the late 80's I
was photographing trains near Carbide at South Charleston and was
told by a security guard that I wasn't allowed to have a camera
near the plant. He didn't make me erase the tape, though.

I drive by John Amos every day and that exhaust plume is almost
always impressive. Every once in a while I stop and take photos
of it from either Nitro or across the river at Poca if the lighting
is right.

Dan

Click to expand...

--
Please visit me at:
http://www.caughtintimephotography.com

Click to expand...

Please pardon me in advance for the lengthy post.

I work for a state legislature and the building I work in is connected to 4 other state buildings by an underground parking deck, making the deck a more attractive target than the average government building. Before 9-11, only a sign at the entrances stated that the parking deck was for employees only, with no spaces available for the public. After 9-11, we had state troopers, police, etc., at the entrances checking IDs as cars entered the parking area. Last year, they installed automated, vertical doors (picture a high speed garage door) on all the entrances and exits. The doors are opened by card readers when entering and when leaving, a sensor detects the approaching vehicle and the gate/door opens. I immediately discovered the biggest flaw in the new security doors. You could easily 'piggyback' into the deck behind another car. The doors (and the gate arm that preceeds the door) were designed to detect vehicles and not come crashing down on them. So the highest priority in the 'security system' was obviously to avoid damage to vehicles and their occupants. If anyone wanted to bomb the parking deck, they'd just have to observe the way the gates operate and quickly learn the 'piggyback' method of entering. I told the officer in charge of security about my discovery and it was no news to him. Has anything been done about this security flaw? No. Will anything be done? Probably not. State government buildings are, like coal fueled power plants, very low down on the list of potential terrorist targets. I suspect the security doors were installed to cover the ass of the governor or whoever would have been blamed in the unlikely event of a bombing. Was airport security tightened after 9-11? Absolutely. Could passengers still get aboard an airliner with potential weapons-knife, etc. Absolutely. It happened more than once. Our airports are still much less secure than those in Israel, for example. While on the surface, prohibiting photographs, installing security doors, etc., may make the average person feel more protected, it's mostly just 'for show', rather than for real effect. Does a "Stay off the grass" sign really safeguard the grass 24/7? To really protect the grass you'd need barbed wire and a 24 hr. armed patrol. So far we're pretty much just paying lip service to real security in this country. We can never be completely safe from terrorist attacks. It remains to be seen how safe we need/want to be and how many freedoms we'll have to give up to achieve that degree of safety. In my opinion, many more Americans will have to die violent deaths here at home before we achieve significant 'security' and therefore lose significant freedoms. I grew up with the cold war and the threat of WWIII. I thought/hoped the world would be a safer place after the fall of the Soviet Union. I was wrong. I still have hope, though.

I agree, safety first. How is one to know if one is photographing for illicit purposes?? For now, it has to be that way.... I say, move, if you do not like it.

Parker