Sure you can notice some softness wide open but still more than
usable.
Sample taken at ISO 1000, handheld at 1/15s f/3.5 !!!!
The whole image:
The 1:1 crop:
Mskad.
And this isn't taking anything away from the Sigma OR your great shot
But even a £145 Cosina 19-35 will perform at F11 and most people
are interested about how iot may perform full frame wide open or at
least at F5.6 or so.. only on rare occasions, with a powerful flash
or when landscape chasing with a Tripod can anyone get anywhere
near that heavily stopped down.
How does it perform below F8 ? ..
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
-
Welcome to the new forums! Please read this first. For known issues we are working to resolve, click here.
Canon EF 16-35L vs Sigma 15-30 -photos to compare anyone?
- Thread starter cauko
- Start date
Adam-T
Forum Pro
Here's a couple of architecture perspective shots, I'd love to have taken these with Full frame - I love old buildings 
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
Forrest41926
Forum Pro
And of course we all know that it's not the lens itself that's distorting the perspective; it's how close you are, and the fact that you're tilting the camera back to get the shot. You're basically tilting the camera ( film-plane ) forward to see the shot, which tilts the buildings in the shot backwards.Here's a couple of architecture perspective shots, I'd love to have
taken these with Full frame - I love old buildings
We all also know that for a mere $1K, we can get a 24 mm f/3.5 tilt-and-shift lens to correct for this very phenominon. It's manual focus only ( hard to do with a wide angle on a cropped camera! ) and very difficult to meter with, probably not very soft, but for it's speciality use ( correcting this very type of perspective distortion ), it can't be beat. You can tilt the lens without tilting the camera, and when you look at the photos, the buildings aren't falling over.
So, I don't suppose anyone has figured out the budget way to achieve the same trick? Say a couple mirrors and an easle?
Adam-T
Forum Pro
Another part of the 16-35L learning curve, if you saw my Pier shot, there is no distortion whatsoever at a full 16mm, but one I took of the whole church is curved along the bottom - the reason being the angle I took the shot at -- I couldn't take it full side on because I couldn't get far enough away because of that 1.6 crop again, I MIGHT have just got away with it at a push standing buried in the hedge with a 1D ..
I remember you saying a while back that you're finding the 16mm end to long on the D60 and I couldn't believe it (due to me having only really shot "work" stuff previously and found my 24mm SMC Pentax prime more than wide enough) BUT when getting into landscape or creative architectural shots , i'm finding exactly the same, having had a good play with a 1DS hasn't helped this one Iota and I can see me buying MORE Provia to feed the UWA addiction (that's Ultra Wide Angle, not a drug ;-) ....
All this is boiling down to me being glad that I invested that amount of money into the 16-35L NOW knowing full well that the lens will peform on full frame later ..
Or Photohop Panotools ;-)
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
Adam-T
Forum Pro
Sorry - forgot -->
I have been racking my brains about the 1D again, it's currently the only semi-affordable (if ordered from the USA) wider angle crop Canon and have considered trying one out again (I tried one a while ago and the output didn't impress me in the least - BUT they've supposedly fixed the banding issues) ..
The downer with the 1D is that although having a 1.3 FOV crop, it's 4Mp aren't ideal for landscapes where every pixel and detail increase (however minor) count - this is 1DS territory and I just can't afford one. an 8.5Mp 3D would be ideal especially if it's full frame , I guess it's best to sit tight and wait..
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
I have been racking my brains about the 1D again, it's currently the only semi-affordable (if ordered from the USA) wider angle crop Canon and have considered trying one out again (I tried one a while ago and the output didn't impress me in the least - BUT they've supposedly fixed the banding issues) ..
The downer with the 1D is that although having a 1.3 FOV crop, it's 4Mp aren't ideal for landscapes where every pixel and detail increase (however minor) count - this is 1DS territory and I just can't afford one. an 8.5Mp 3D would be ideal especially if it's full frame , I guess it's best to sit tight and wait..
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
donato
Leading Member
Hoya super hmc circ polarizer thin.
Forrest41926
Forum Pro
I gave the 1D a LOT of thought while it was out, and until I ultimately bought my D60. In the end, it's just too specialized in ways I won't take advantage of ( like why I got a 2100 instead of the E-100 RS ), and obviously that's where the cost comes from. I can't really imagine a situation where I'd take advantage of the 8 fps. I can think of situations where I would use ISO 3200, but 90% of what I shoot is at 100, so it really doesn't make sense.
And yeah, the banding bothered me too much to actually buy one, too.
Yeah, I downloaded the same photo from the two cameras, and you can definately see more detail in the D60 image. It's spread over more pixels and probably doesn't scale as well ... in the end they can both do a good job, but I'm holding out for that 3D, too. I'd be perfectly happy if it was 1.3x; that's a huge step in the right direction.
( I'll have to post some panos from around The City, where 16 mm just isn't nearly wide enough, when I get the chance. )
Forrest41926
Forum Pro
And ironing out that learning curve. A 14/2.8 would have been a much better short-term solution for me, but I wouldn't use one full-format very often. I'd have to sell it and use the money for a 24/1.4L. With the zoom, I can use the same lens on whatever chip-size camera I wind up with...
Yeah, but that's very much like interopelating more pixels. You're asking Photoshop what the photo would have looked like, had you shot it in a different way. I'd prefer to shoot it differently, if it's possible.
Adam-T
Forum Pro
Same here, I'd NEVER use the 8FPS, but you've not seen white balance and natural colour til youve seen these 1 series Digital bodies perform, I agree also about ISO100, I rarely ever use anything higher because I HATE noise with a vengeance, I'd rather use fast glass than a Digital "elastoplast" (or chemical with film) to get a shot..
As you can probably tell, i've spent too much time with a 1DS (I had to pick up my 50mm prime from it's owner and had another play ;-) .. I'd like to see noise levels down at ISO100 on that camera, I'm amazed that it's there to be honest given the Sensor / photosite size and better cooling than the D60 -- though the photos which come out of it are astounding , you have to see AWB get natural looking photos under tungsten lighting to believe it..
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
Adam-T
Forum Pro
I agree there, unfortunately Tilt/shift lenses don't come wider than 24mm and I seem to remember a new 1DS owner on this forum having problems with softness ---- back to standing on the car roof I guess ;-)
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
W
Waldemar
Guest
As far as i´ve read, both are pretty sharp in the center wide open and soft in the corners. The 16-35mm starts at f 2.8 and thus will probably be better at f 5.6 than the Sigma, but not that much.And this isn't taking anything away from the Sigma OR your great shot
But even a £145 Cosina 19-35 will perform at F11 and most people
are interested about how iot may perform full frame wide open or at
least at F5.6 or so.. only on rare occasions, with a powerful flash
or when landscape chasing with a Tripod can anyone get anywhere
near that heavily stopped down.
How does it perform below F8 ? ..
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
The reviews i´ve read postulate the 16-35mm is much better with flare control and somewhat better with vignetting, while the Sigma is probably slightly sharper overall.
And i would think that most people use ultra wide lenses at f 8-11 to get more DOF. Photo journalists on the other hand need a f 2.8, but they don´t really care that much about the lens going soft then, they need the pic as such. I just say, you´re shooting people, get the Canon, otherwise i´d recommend the Sigma and the excellent 24-70 L for the money you save
I´ll try to do some more testing with different f stops, once the weather over here improves, it´s pretty murky right now.
--
Waldemar
http://www.pbase.com/haak
http://www.photo-haak.com
http://www.images-of-tuscany.com
Adam-T
Forum Pro
The 16-35L is actually VERY sharp at F2.8 at 16mm for a UWA zoom, OK it's no 28-70 and it does fall off at the corners.. I need F2.8 for a lot of my work (for DOF and low light reasons) , otherwise I would have gone for the sigma myself
Will look forward to your different F-stops reports
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
[this is a little off topic -]
Wow, you've got some steady hands, I'm jealous. I WISH I could hold a camera that still for 1/15. sheesh, i'm lucky i can get down to 1/60 most of the time.
Wow, you've got some steady hands, I'm jealous. I WISH I could hold a camera that still for 1/15. sheesh, i'm lucky i can get down to 1/60 most of the time.
Sure you can notice some softness wide open but still more than
usable.
Sample taken at ISO 1000, handheld at 1/15s f/3.5 !!!!
The whole image:
The 1:1 crop:
Mskad.
And this isn't taking anything away from the Sigma OR your great shot
But even a £145 Cosina 19-35 will perform at F11 and most people
are interested about how iot may perform full frame wide open or at
least at F5.6 or so.. only on rare occasions, with a powerful flash
or when landscape chasing with a Tripod can anyone get anywhere
near that heavily stopped down.
How does it perform below F8 ? ..
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
Forrest41926
Forum Pro
I can actually picture myself wanting to use it once or twice ... but I'm sure I would have the thing turned down to 3 or 4 to save space on the CF cards ... and when I really needed it, I would be fumbling with the camera trying to remember how to change the framerate, while I missed my shot... Then I would set the camera to 8 fps, and never need it again...
That's ultimately why I got a Canon instead of a Nikon DSLR. That's why these Sony + Neat Image = D60 posts are so amusing...
Well, let us know when you get one...! I would love to have a 1Ds, and I would even put up with the noise ... but it's too much. Even my girlfriend says no, and she's ready to buy me a 300/4L!
I wonder just how important the white balance is? I get the idea it's dramatically more important to you than it is to me. I've been shooting paid jobs occassionally, and try to get the WB right. If it's not accurate, pleasing and not garishly off is good enough for the jobs I shoot. But then most of what I shoot is just for hobby, and I'm not sure that having properly white-balanced images helps that much in landscapes ... or that auto in the D60 is good enough?
This is AWB:
And this is CWB:
Notice that the waterfall is definately more accurate ( and plenty less interesting ) in the custom WB photo, but the highlights on the rock are warmer ( and more pleasing to most people, if somewhat "fake" ) in the custom WB image. ( These are from the same RAW file, and I haven't decided which version to print yet... )
I used the D60's auto WB image ( the embedded jpeg ) to make the image I used in my web-portfolio:
W
Waldemar
Guest
Well, i´ve got the 24mm TS-E and i can tell you, it has some CONSIDERABLE barrel distortion. And it´s not easy to handle, no shift lens is.And of course we all know that it's not the lens itself that'sHere's a couple of architecture perspective shots, I'd love to have
taken these with Full frame - I love old buildings
distorting the perspective; it's how close you are, and the fact
that you're tilting the camera back to get the shot. You're
basically tilting the camera ( film-plane ) forward to see the
shot, which tilts the buildings in the shot backwards.
We all also know that for a mere $1K, we can get a 24 mm f/3.5
tilt-and-shift lens to correct for this very phenominon. It's
manual focus only ( hard to do with a wide angle on a cropped
camera! ) and very difficult to meter with, probably not very soft,
but for it's speciality use ( correcting this very type of
perspective distortion ), it can't be beat. You can tilt the lens
without tilting the camera, and when you look at the photos, the
buildings aren't falling over.
So, I don't suppose anyone has figured out the budget way to
achieve the same trick? Say a couple mirrors and an easle?
If you don´t overdo it with the tilt of the camera, it´s easier to correct the image in Photoshop.
The 24mm TS-E doesn´t make an SLR a pro cam for architecture, if you want to see, what a real pro 6x9 shift cam does, look here:
http://www.pbase.com/image/13997060
Look at the bricks on the left side - yes, 100% straight and it´s a 21mm lens (=47mm Schneider)!!!! Shot handheld by watching the built-in bubble levelers.
--
Waldemar
http://www.pbase.com/haak
http://www.photo-haak.com
http://www.images-of-tuscany.com
W
Waldemar
Guest
...here´s a nice 24mm shot, though. The tilting would have been even worse without shifting. (The film grain is artificial)Well, i´ve got the 24mm TS-E and i can tell you, it has someAnd of course we all know that it's not the lens itself that'sHere's a couple of architecture perspective shots, I'd love to have
taken these with Full frame - I love old buildings
distorting the perspective; it's how close you are, and the fact
that you're tilting the camera back to get the shot. You're
basically tilting the camera ( film-plane ) forward to see the
shot, which tilts the buildings in the shot backwards.
We all also know that for a mere $1K, we can get a 24 mm f/3.5
tilt-and-shift lens to correct for this very phenominon. It's
manual focus only ( hard to do with a wide angle on a cropped
camera! ) and very difficult to meter with, probably not very soft,
but for it's speciality use ( correcting this very type of
perspective distortion ), it can't be beat. You can tilt the lens
without tilting the camera, and when you look at the photos, the
buildings aren't falling over.
So, I don't suppose anyone has figured out the budget way to
achieve the same trick? Say a couple mirrors and an easle?
CONSIDERABLE barrel distortion. And it´s not easy to handle, no
shift lens is.
If you don´t overdo it with the tilt of the camera, it´s easier to
correct the image in Photoshop.
The 24mm TS-E doesn´t make an SLR a pro cam for architecture, if
you want to see, what a real pro 6x9 shift cam does, look here:
http://www.pbase.com/image/13997060
Look at the bricks on the left side - yes, 100% straight and it´s a
21mm lens (=47mm Schneider)!!!! Shot handheld by watching the
built-in bubble levelers.
--
Waldemar
http://www.pbase.com/haak
http://www.photo-haak.com
http://www.images-of-tuscany.com
--
Waldemar
http://www.pbase.com/haak
http://www.photo-haak.com
http://www.images-of-tuscany.com
Forrest41926
Forum Pro
I've never heard this before, but I don't doubt it. It's a VERY specialty lens; great at doing two things in particular, at the expense of probably everything else. Even forgetting the MF only and the metering problems, it's damn-near as expensive as a 24-70L, a prime, and slower!!
I don't like doing too much manipulation in Photoshop, especially when the same thing could be done "naturally" in the camera. This is why I prefer wide lenses to mosaic panorama images...
But I really wonder if there's a way you can right the perspective with the lenses we all already have...? Imagine if you set up the camera on a tripod, pointing at some mirrors set up on a couple of easles? ( Yeah, I know, but my girlfriend already has the easles to hold the mirror steady. )
Adam-T
Forum Pro
I found the 1DS a very "fumbly" camera especially compared to the Elan-7E which is so "Knobular" you could cry! , This move to "button and dial only " IMO a very retrograde step, with the Elan-7 you can switch shooting mode, Single/multi/Timer-remote and focus mode from real knobs on the camera like a real camera (read K1000 etc) and it has focus point selection arrows on the rear dial - this is all missing from the supposedly Elan-7 based 10D as is the wonderful IR remote sensor and Eye control..
and why I got an S30 for a pocket snappycam, it's actually marginally cleaner than the 1DS at ISO50 & 100 !!!! and it's images interpolate to 6.4Mp far better than the native 12Mp interpolated output from a Fuji 602 !, I won't even mention Olympus, the C5050 at it's lowest ISO is like the S30 at ISO800 !!
It's like the banding on the 1D, that noise, even if I COULD afford one would hold me back from paying the $10,000 for it - I'm sure that the next generation will clear it up along with the dust problem..
If the D60 had fine Kelvin adjustent like the E10 it wouldn't bother me at all, but even selecting Tungsten WB in camera isn't enough sometimes with theatre
Outdoors the AWB on the D60 (and even Oly cameras which are the worst for WB) is just fine to me
--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist
My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855
Old Timer63
Veteran Member
I think what ever you decide to buy you can go out and be creative.Image links 1Ds with 15-30 at 15
http://www.pbase.com/image/12858027
http://www.pbase.com/image/12857254
--
Dave C
Stefan Schott
Veteran Member
Well, if you downsample the 1Ds images to the size of the S30's using bicubic interpolation you'll see LESS noise.
Regards
Stefan
Keyboard shortcuts
- f
- Forum