Returning cameras

OlgaJ said:

MarekM said:

I agree that morality is a broad area , but you yourself suggested
above that many customers abused return policies.

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As I said, they used deception and that is something that I
personally consider immoral. Return policies were not made for
someone to rent equipment free of charge. There's a difference
between using a return policy and abusing it. More folks use it
than abuse it. And the policy is there for the honest folks.

Olga Johnson said:

It is exactly that, if a customer knows that he will be returning
the camera for a refund and wants to use it for few days, immoral.
On the second part, while I truly really like your postings and the
time you take to help us, I cannot disagree with you more on
product returns as a marketing policy. Where does this idea come
from? Returns is not a marketing tool in any of the vendors
policies that I know, and I service many of them.
In the past , large vendors would pick geographical areas with
population composition similar to that of the entire country to
test their products. In Canada it used to be Winnipeg. I do not
think anybody does it anymore.

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Some test markets still exist in the U.S. But that's different
marketing. It's marketing of new products.

How do you suppose a vendor chooses which products they will
continue to carry or reorder in stock? One of the reordering
factors includes the products that cause them the least amount of
work and expense in terms of returns either due to defect or due to
the fact that the consumers are not satisfied. You and I do not see
it but nonetheless a necessary step that a vendor takes.

More importantly you will find a direct relationship of price to
return policy. The better the policy, the higher the price. Don't
think you are getting something for nothing. Satisfaction comes at
a price.

If anything, return policies have been introduced representing the
morality of the vendor and for the benefit of the vendor, not the
morality of the consumer. The vendor is telling you "we want you to
be satisfied. We don't want you to be unhappy with your purchase.
If you are unhappy, come back and we will take care of you." They
want you to return to their establishment. They have had to
institute time limits and restocking fees to prevent the abuse of
the policy, but they want you to feel comfortable buying from them
so that you would return and spend more money.

• Olga

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MarekM wrote:

Olga this is such a thoughtful reply. It is so true what they say, where do you get your wisdom from?

Vendors return policies indeed test populations morality, even though that is not their intention.

Oh, okay. I understand you better now. I have seen this more with clothes than with electronics -- for ex: women who buy a dress from Nordstrom and wear it, knowing that Nordstrom will take a dress back at any time, with no questions. Yes, in that case I consider that a form of stealing.

But if I got a DVD player and really just wasn't using it, I wouldn't have any problem taking it back after a while (say, 14 days or whatever) if I had all the documentation and such. I feel like the product should be in some kind of resellable condition if I'm going to make a return.

Tarun Arya said:

You are right and I agree with you. I am talking from the premise
that a person is returning a good which he has used and he had no
intention of purchasing it to start with.

In such a case it is indeed a moral issue.

I am not talking about product which a person tested and found
defective or which a person tested and did not like... I would also
return an unused product if I know it is not for me. But if I have
used it then I will indeed battle with myself especially if I used
it for long.

-Tarun

Christina said:

Now, if you're talking about buying something like clothes, wearing
them, and then returning them, I do think that's taking advantage.
Or buying something with the intention of never keeping it. Or
trying to return a item a year later.

But if someone has enough money to buy a two cameras, try them both
out, and send back one of them, well, whatever. The vendor will
sell it again as an open box for a slightly discounted price, and I
for one would leap at such a deal. I was DYING to find an "open
box" S45 when I was shopping. I don't care if someone else's
fingers pushed the buttons before I did. Why would that even
matter, as long as the camera had been inspected, refurbished if
needed, and sent to me with an appropriate warranty?

MarekM said:

Eric Haglund said:

A decent digicam is an expensive and complex device. You can't
possibly know if it's right for you from a few reviews and
"playing" with it in the confines of a store, especially when it
has that stupid theft deterrent cable attached. Only by using it
for a few days can you ascertain whether or not it is right for you.

A decent store owner would rather have you bring it back and
exchange for something else than have you sit with it and be
unhappy. IMHO.

--
Eric
Disclaimer: Snapshooter, and proud of it ;-)
http://www.pbase.com/haglunde

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MarekM wrote:
And then exactly what should he do with a returned camera? like, we
do not take risks in life and try to pass them onto others? The
store owner takes a risk getting the camera and trying to sell it.
It's also not that difficult to play with the camera in the store.
Perhaps there could be loaners that might be had for a few dys for
a small fee, but that may not be practical, I am not sure.
I sympatize with those who live in remote areas and cannot put
their hands on a camera before they buy it. On the other hand, they
enjoy so many other benefits of life that folks in large cities
have to face everyday.

Overall, I think that re-stocking fee is the fairest of solutions.

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How will i know if i just bought a returned canon cam? my only indication is that it asks for date settings the first time you turn on the cam since canon cams are never sealed.

you mean compusa and bestbuy? =)

my wong said:

Marek,

It's a great marketing strategy that has been showed to actually
increase sales! Of course, the small retailers cannot afford to do
that as much as the large chains can.

I know Staples always encourage me to buy and try and return if I'm
not happy. It helps those who hesitates to go ahead and make the
purchase. The name of the game is sales. There will be returns, but
if you know there is a no question asked return policy, you do not
hesitate to buy at that vendor -- again and again and again --
instead of the competitor across the street who either will not
accept a return or make it difficult to get one (as in, send you to
hunt for the salesperson who actually sold you the item, and of
course, you are avoided like the plague -- some of you may know
which large electronics store I may be talking about) or charge you
a stocking fee.

If, or when, it starts to hurt them, they will discontinue it,
believe me. Money talks and right now this no questions asked
refund policy sells more.

Of course, one should take advantage of that policy responsibly. If
you misuse it, you might not be welcomed in that store anymore.
There is such a thing as a 'bad' customer.

My
----------------------------------------
Digital Camera Fact Sheets
http://www.photoxels.com
'A Smile Is Forever'

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--
[email protected]
(olympus-340, S110, S330 & S230)

You're right at it's not appropriate to say "corporations make millions, therefore cheating is okay." That's not a good argument.

But it's not true that these corporations are being forced lockstep into having such return policies. Nordstrom, for instance (I'm always thinking about clothes!) has a "return for any reason" policy. Other clothing retailers do not -- they require receipts, or you can only return within a certain time frame, or whatever. They haven't been forced to change by Nordstrom. Nordstrom has found a policy that works for them. No, you shouldn't cheat, but I'm not going to feel guilty for returning something to Nordstrom if I can't find the receipt, either. I bet you Eaton's went out of business for one of the "many reasons" that you mentioned, NOT the return policy. Nordstrom seems to be doing quite well.

Plus, in return for their generous return policy, I AM more likely to shop at Nordie's. Just like in return for Dell's generous return policy, I bought my camera from them and felt safe -- and I'm not going to return the camera, because I'm happy with it. There's the S50 out now and I COULD still return my S45, but I'm not. It just makes me feel better to know I COULD, even though I won't. Just because a return policy isn't important to you, doesn't mean it's not important at all -- to me, or the millions of other shoppers out there. Such things ARE important. A digicam isn't cheap, you know. And if I bought a damaged "open box" camera? Well, I'd just take it back -- you know you're taking a risk by buying it in the first place.

I really do think most people are more honest and straightforward than you may be giving them credit for. Yes, there are some people who are determined to cheat, and like to post on message boards to brag about it. Goody for them. But is that the way most people operate? I think not -- else NO company would allow returns at all.

I just don't see how morals enter into shopping. This isn't life and death here, it's just money. If you're not breaking a company's rules, I don't know how anyone else can tell you you're wrong. I don't like that people return clothes to Nordstrom after they wear them, but that's for Nordie's to deal with, not morality police.

MarekM said:

MarekM wrote:
An argument that corporations make zillions and it is therefore
O.K. for us to cheat them does not hold water anywhere. A cheat is
a cheat.

I for one, have never been swayed to buy at one vendor or another
because of their return policy. Yes, they use return policies
because someone somewhere started it and there is no return but to
match it.

There was a huge national Dept.store chain called Eaton's, the
staple of canadian merchants, a legend. They went out of business
for many reasons, but their return policy was completely out of
hand. You could return an item for a full refund or exchange that
was bought years ago, no receipt, at time of return they would not
verufy that they carried such stock in the past. Where are they now?

When I choose the vendor, I look for support, knowledge and advise.
This is worth extra to me. when you buy "open box" cameras, you are
playing a rulette. For a little saving you are buying insecurity if
your product is 100%.
I will cite again a case of a fellow from another thread who
dropped the camera from 4 ft on the concrete floor. The camera
works and I am happy for him. Would you want to own it, however?
Are you sure that there is no misalignment?
All my cameras come from stores where salespersons know more about
photography than me (which is not that difficult, granted). I do
not even know their return policy (Henrys).

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You know, i shouldn't have said "morality police" in my post above, that was flamebait. I apologize.

Just cause I was curious: Henry's does have quite a decent return policy, actually. I'd buy from them. Two weeks is certainly enough time to try out a camera, and if something new comes out in 30 days that you just HAVE to have, you still have some recourse:

Henry's offers a 14-day refund and a 30-day exchange opportunity for most merchandise purchased.

Returnable items can be brought in at any one of our stores or shipped back by mail.

All items considered for exchange or refund must be returned in "as new" condition, complete with all packaging materials. After 30 days all merchandise is considered used and may be considered for trade-in purposes only.

Christina said:

You know, i shouldn't have said "morality police" in my post above,
that was flamebait. I apologize.

Just cause I was curious: Henry's does have quite a decent return
policy, actually. I'd buy from them. Two weeks is certainly enough
time to try out a camera, and if something new comes out in 30 days
that you just HAVE to have, you still have some recourse:

Henry's offers a 14-day refund and a 30-day exchange opportunity
for most merchandise purchased.
Returnable items can be brought in at any one of our stores or
shipped back by mail.

All items considered for exchange or refund must be returned in "as
new" condition, complete with all packaging materials. After 30
days all merchandise is considered used and may be considered for
trade-in purposes only.

MarekM wrote,

Click to expand...

No need for apologies, I did not get insulted. Nor do I think that most people cheat. It is those few that I am uncomfortable with .

I did not know you work for/own/are associated with Henrys. Your address shows USA (perhaps we in Canada have been taken over, haven't watched the news today yet)

As for Henrys, I am heading there tomorrow to buy a camera for my Daughter's birthday . She is 11 and loves gadgety things. Do you want to take a wild guess what I am buying her? Hint: I probably should answer in another forum.

You're a good daddy! I'm hadn't heard of Henry's before you mentioned it, I live in Washington DC. I just checked their online site.

I have a 9 year old niece who LOVES my Kodak digicam. It's very exciting for her to take pictures and look at them immediately.

MarekM said:

Christina said:

You know, i shouldn't have said "morality police" in my post above,
that was flamebait. I apologize.

Just cause I was curious: Henry's does have quite a decent return
policy, actually. I'd buy from them. Two weeks is certainly enough
time to try out a camera, and if something new comes out in 30 days
that you just HAVE to have, you still have some recourse:

Henry's offers a 14-day refund and a 30-day exchange opportunity
for most merchandise purchased.
Returnable items can be brought in at any one of our stores or
shipped back by mail.

All items considered for exchange or refund must be returned in "as
new" condition, complete with all packaging materials. After 30
days all merchandise is considered used and may be considered for
trade-in purposes only.

MarekM wrote,

Click to expand...

No need for apologies, I did not get insulted. Nor do I think that
most people cheat. It is those few that I am uncomfortable with .
I did not know you work for/own/are associated with Henrys. Your
address shows USA (perhaps we in Canada have been taken over,
haven't watched the news today yet)
As for Henrys, I am heading there tomorrow to buy a camera for my
Daughter's birthday . She is 11 and loves gadgety things. Do you
want to take a wild guess what I am buying her? Hint: I probably
should answer in another forum.

Click to expand...

your only other clues are packing material, fingerprints etc., settings can be reset to default.?

graph (s230) said:

How will i know if i just bought a returned canon cam? my only
indication is that it asks for date settings the first time you
turn on the cam since canon cams are never sealed.

Click to expand...

Todd L said:

graph (s230) said:

How will i know if i just bought a returned canon cam? my only
indication is that it asks for date settings the first time you
turn on the cam since canon cams are never sealed.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

MarekM wrote:
Aren't manuals usually sealed in a plastic bag?

It is a difficult call though and it certainly falls on the back of a merchant to inform you.

MarekM said:

MarekM wrote:
Aren't manuals usually sealed in a plastic bag?
It is a difficult call though and it certainly falls on the back of
a merchant to inform you.

Click to expand...

I just think it should be pretty obvious, I mean its easy to just see the way the little peice of plastic is mounted on the lcd.... manuals, and software is always sealed. I think the box itself should be sealed but they arn't. Anyway these cams are tough and can take alot of abuse, so if someone handling it and was careful enough to put it all back together neatly shouldn't become a problem.

MarekM,

It is very difficult to judge a camera when it is attached to the counter by a 2 foot cable or appears on a website. You cannot see how well it focusses under adverse conditions or how it handles. If you go to an old fashioned camera store you can actually take it outside, take it to a dark spot in the store or just play with it. I think you should be allowed some tryout time as long as you return it in "as new" condition. I would accept an "as new" device.
Jim

MarekM said:

It seems from many posts in this forum that returning cameras for a
refund or exchange or an upgrade has become a very casual business.
In my opinion, you should think before you buy. If it is broken, no
problem, return it for a refund or exchange, but just because you
changed your mind?
Quite simply, we are all paying for it as it becomes cost of doing
business.
It is also unfair to many comissioned sales people.
There should be a re-stocking fee applied to unwarranted (change of
mind) returns.
The worst posts are: " I just bought the Camera X, used for two
days and thinking about exchanging it for a camera y. What do you
guys think?"

I surely expect many to disagree. Unless there are arguments that I
did not think of, I firmly believe in what I said above.
What do you think?

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fels

I agree with Jim. The camera store near me (meaning the only one within two hours drive), attached the cameras on such a tight tether that it is difficult to even hold, let alone examine. The media slot is unopenable, so I can't put in a CF/SM card to test the photos. You can barely even get the feel of the camera in your hand, let alone examine the features, focus, etc. Fortunately, a good number of vendors agree!

Jim Fels said:

MarekM said:

It seems from many posts in this forum that returning cameras for a
refund or exchange or an upgrade has become a very casual business.
In my opinion, you should think before you buy. If it is broken, no
problem, return it for a refund or exchange, but just because you
changed your mind?
Quite simply, we are all paying for it as it becomes cost of doing
business.
It is also unfair to many comissioned sales people.
There should be a re-stocking fee applied to unwarranted (change of
mind) returns.
The worst posts are: " I just bought the Camera X, used for two
days and thinking about exchanging it for a camera y. What do you
guys think?"

I surely expect many to disagree. Unless there are arguments that I
did not think of, I firmly believe in what I said above.
What do you think?

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fels

Click to expand...

Isn't it illegal to sell a product that was already sold and used reagrdless for how long and returned as a new product without telling the buyer? Any lawyers out there?

Alan

Catsbreath said:

Jim Fels said:

MarekM said:

It seems from many posts in this forum that returning cameras for a
refund or exchange or an upgrade has become a very casual business.
In my opinion, you should think before you buy. If it is broken, no
problem, return it for a refund or exchange, but just because you
changed your mind?
Quite simply, we are all paying for it as it becomes cost of doing
business.
It is also unfair to many comissioned sales people.
There should be a re-stocking fee applied to unwarranted (change of
mind) returns.
The worst posts are: " I just bought the Camera X, used for two
days and thinking about exchanging it for a camera y. What do you
guys think?"

I surely expect many to disagree. Unless there are arguments that I
did not think of, I firmly believe in what I said above.
What do you think?

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fels

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

In all the hundreds of stories about the demise of Eaton's, I never once read any theory that blamed the company's demise on its return policy, even to a small extent.
Red herring in this discussion.

MarekM said:

MarekM wrote:
An argument that corporations make zillions and it is therefore
O.K. for us to cheat them does not hold water anywhere. A cheat is
a cheat.

I for one, have never been swayed to buy at one vendor or another
because of their return policy. Yes, they use return policies
because someone somewhere started it and there is no return but to
match it.

There was a huge national Dept.store chain called Eaton's, the
staple of canadian merchants, a legend. They went out of business
for many reasons, but their return policy was completely out of
hand. You could return an item for a full refund or exchange that
was bought years ago, no receipt, at time of return they would not
verufy that they carried such stock in the past. Where are they now?

When I choose the vendor, I look for support, knowledge and advise.
This is worth extra to me. when you buy "open box" cameras, you are
playing a rulette. For a little saving you are buying insecurity if
your product is 100%.
I will cite again a case of a fellow from another thread who
dropped the camera from 4 ft on the concrete floor. The camera
works and I am happy for him. Would you want to own it, however?
Are you sure that there is no misalignment?
All my cameras come from stores where salespersons know more about
photography than me (which is not that difficult, granted). I do
not even know their return policy (Henrys).

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/maynardf1/galleries

Jim Fels said:

MarekM,
It is very difficult to judge a camera when it is attached to the
counter by a 2 foot cable or appears on a website. You cannot see
how well it focusses under adverse conditions or how it handles. If
you go to an old fashioned camera store you can actually take it
outside, take it to a dark spot in the store or just play with it.
I think you should be allowed some tryout time as long as you
return it in "as new" condition. I would accept an "as new" device.
Jim

Click to expand...

MarekM wrote:

Jim, off course I agree with what you are saying. W've drifted off point, however. What I was initially saying is that it is this casual approach, that after you see and handle the camera, you buy it, but not exactly. You then return it as if it was a matter of course. Well, it is not.
How fair is it to the vendor? vendors are also people with bills to pay.

Mail vendors take that chance that a customer may not like a camera and return it. He knows, that chances of it should be slimmer than to a walk-in vendor, because there are costs to customer involved (shipping).

But when you go to a store, see a camera, handle it, buy it, then dislike it and return it, well then , this is a different issue.

I do not expect consensus on this issue, we are all different. I have presented my point of view and am happy to find out that many share it.

I used Eatons as an example because it was convenient. They did not go out of business because of return policies. I did not offer that theory either, implied it as one of many factors.
Would you venture a guess why they did go out of business?

from this forum's perspective , I bet that Eatons would be one of the last Dept Stores in Canada to carry digital cameras when they were introduced.

I was born and brought up by the sea, I like herrings. There.
Rgds

Time is money. Selling one camera twice cost more than selling it once to make the same profit.

Tanglefoot1947 said:

GovtLawyer said:

MarekM said:

It seems from many posts in this forum that returning cameras for a
refund or exchange or an upgrade has become a very casual business.
In my opinion, you should think before you buy. If it is broken, no
problem, return it for a refund or exchange, but just because you
changed your mind?
Quite simply, we are all paying for it as it becomes cost of doing
business.
It is also unfair to many comissioned sales people.
There should be a re-stocking fee applied to unwarranted (change of
mind) returns.
The worst posts are: " I just bought the Camera X, used for two
days and thinking about exchanging it for a camera y. What do you
guys think?"

I surely expect many to disagree. Unless there are arguments that I
did not think of, I firmly believe in what I said above.
What do you think?

Click to expand...

When I went to B&H and Adorama, and looked at three or four
cameras, both stores told me it would be no problem to take the one
I was thinking of (G3) and use it. After all, they said, I had a
week to try it and if I didn't like it, bring it back, no questions
asked, and try the other one. As long as these stores are
suggesting that to me, I'm gonna do it. Now, I happened to have
liked my choice, (G3) but if I didn't, I'd think nothing about
taking it back. It did cost me over &700. You can take a car for
a test drive, can't you?

Click to expand...

--The real problem people have is the fact that you cannot get your
hands on all the camera's that you might be interested in. Every
store I called in my area did not have a camera that I was
interested in. So I ordered it online and just hope that it works
for me. But it is the stores that are pushing the idea that if you
don't like it return it. So why not?

Tanglefoot1947 717, B-300, TCON 14B, WCON 08B, Canon i950

Click to expand...

If you use a credit card and then go to Best Buy and take out say the Canon G3, the Sony 717 and the Nikon 5700 at the same time with the intent that you will compare them and will necessarily return at two of them. I would say that is lame and unreasonable.

If you buy a Canon G3, and you honestly believed it was a simple point and shoot camera, but it turned out to be more advanced that a simple point and shoot, then I it would be very reasonable for you to return the G3.

Man, I wish I had that kind of credit limit! But why is that unreasonable. What would you prefer the buyer who wants to compare all three of those cameras do?

steve leonardo said:

If you use a credit card and then go to Best Buy and take out say
the Canon G3, the Sony 717 and the Nikon 5700 at the same time with
the intent that you will compare them and will necessarily return
at two of them. I would say that is lame and unreasonable.

If you buy a Canon G3, and you honestly believed it was a simple
point and shoot camera, but it turned out to be more advanced that
a simple point and shoot, then I it would be very reasonable for
you to return the G3.

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