D90 to D7000 my findings

rbakerjr · Sep 30, 2012

I've been using my D90 for nearly 4 years but kept eyeing the D7000 since its release. I couldn't justify the price to upgrade, but when the price dropped to $1000 I pulled the trigger. I kept it one day and sent it back...Now I'm wondering if I got a bad camera or if I was too hasty. Let me tell you my 3 issues and see what your opinions are:

1. Out of 125 pictures, almost all were SLIGHTLY out of focus. I used the kit 18-105 from my D90. I know you can fine tune the autofocus adjustment but I was surprised that would even be necessary on the same lens that typically comes as a kit with the D7000. I also used my 35 1.8. I didn't print any focus test charts, just my normal around the house stuff. I'm really not sure if it was front focusing or back focusing, just not tack sharp. This could probably have been fixed, but my next two issues were larger and made me not want to take the time or effort. I have read several forums saying that you need to "get used" to the autofocus. I don't really understand that. I used center point only so that the camera wouldn't surprise me by picking a target I didn't intend.

2. Overall pinkish / orangish skin tones, weird white balance. Certainly adjustable, but why is this necessary? My D90 has always had a slightly cool white balance but very easily fixed when needed. This D7000 seemed to have gone way overboard in trying to correct that. Is that the way all D7000s look right out of the box? I know we all see things differently, but again, I compare to the D90 that gave me pleasing colors right out of the box. (I almost always use Auto WB except indoors without flash I'll typically use manual.)

3. Flash photos indoors when using auto ISO camera chooses high ISO (800-1600). D90 always used 200-400. I understand the concept of using the higher ISO to brighten the background, but again, the D90 just did a better job for me here. The D7000 flash photos just seemed unpredictable to me. Also, for whatever reason, I seemed to have more red-eye than I've ever gotten with my D90. As a side note, I also tried a Sony A57 which is a very impressive camera, but it does the same thing with indoor flash.

I wanted to love this camera. In fact, as soon as I held it and went out shooting, I did love it. I like the feel, shutter sound, speed, few extra bells and whistles, but at the end of the day, it seems like so much more work to get me back to what I was taking for granted with the D90. Again, I know most of these issues are probably overcome but it seems to me like paying about $500 difference (cost of D7000 minus what I could sell the D90 for) and the few advantages I'd get would not outweigh these obstacles.

I really appreciate any opinions you have about my findings. Frankly, though, if everything I've mentioned is normal, I'm not sure I'll be that eager to jump on the next upgrade either.

Thanks.

MRM4350 · Sep 30, 2012

I bought a D90 in 2009, and the D7000 in 2011. I still use both cameras with the D7000 being my favorite because of feel, and sound. I don't see a difference in them when it come to colors, but here is the rub; I don't let my cameras decide anything. I set the ISO, WB, Aperture, Shutter Speed, and Focus point.

I set the D7000 picture controls the same as I use on the D90, and get the same results.
--
Michael
http://www.flickr.com/photos/c36sailor/

rbakerjr · Sep 30, 2012

That's the kind of info I wanted to hear. I did the same thing (set the D7000 identically to the D90) and got very different results.

Thanks for replying.

nikkorwatcher · Sep 30, 2012

Thankyou for your insights, though I believe focus has to be tested for with a certain kind of methodology- to see if all on the same plane is in focus for a start, as you could by taking newspaper shots. It sounds as if the white balance colour temperature is low, which does not worry me to correct. As for the flash... I wonder if the camera designed to look for a more natural balance of ambient light and flash. I find it hard to believe that cannot be corrected.

mosswings · Sep 30, 2012

rbakerjr said:
I've been using my D90 for nearly 4 years but kept eyeing the D7000 since its release. I couldn't justify the price to upgrade, but when the price dropped to $1000 I pulled the trigger. I kept it one day and sent it back...Now I'm wondering if I got a bad camera or if I was too hasty. Let me tell you my 3 issues and see what your opinions are:

1. Out of 125 pictures, almost all were SLIGHTLY out of focus. I used the kit 18-105 from my D90. I know you can fine tune the autofocus adjustment but I was surprised that would even be necessary on the same lens that typically comes as a kit with the D7000. I also used my 35 1.8. I didn't print any focus test charts, just my normal around the house stuff. I'm really not sure if it was front focusing or back focusing, just not tack sharp. This could probably have been fixed, but my next two issues were larger and made me not want to take the time or effort. I have read several forums saying that you need to "get used" to the autofocus. I don't really understand that. I used center point only so that the camera wouldn't surprise me by picking a target I didn't intend.

Is this a focus issue or a rendering settings issue? It's very understandable that your lenses would behave differently on your D7000. Lenses and bodies are made on different assembly lines and are not calibrated to each other. That's why AF Fine Tuning exists. If the AF tuning you needed was small - 5 points or so - and similar for both - under controlled test conditions - then you're simply seeing normal manufacturing variance that is more evident at the higher resolutions of the D7000. Similiarly, the D7000 requires a different sharpness and contrast setting to yield pleasing OOC files. Like your D90, it generates slightly soft, low contrast files at default, but this is what works best for extensive postprocessing.

rbakerjr said:
2. Overall pinkish / orangish skin tones, weird white balance. Certainly adjustable, but why is this necessary? My D90 has always had a slightly cool white balance but very easily fixed when needed. This D7000 seemed to have gone way overboard in trying to correct that. Is that the way all D7000s look right out of the box? I know we all see things differently, but again, I compare to the D90 that gave me pleasing colors right out of the box. (I almost always use Auto WB except indoors without flash I'll typically use manual.)

This sounds odd.

rbakerjr said:
3. Flash photos indoors when using auto ISO camera chooses high ISO (800-1600). D90 always used 200-400. I understand the concept of using the higher ISO to brighten the background, but again, the D90 just did a better job for me here. The D7000 flash photos just seemed unpredictable to me. Also, for whatever reason, I seemed to have more red-eye than I've ever gotten with my D90. As a side note, I also tried a Sony A57 which is a very impressive camera, but it does the same thing with indoor flash.

Getting more red-eye is not a function of the ISO setting (which can be limited), but the D7000 has much better high ISO quality than the D90 - 1 to 2 stops - so why not use it to good advantage? If you're using full Auto, you can always just switch to "P" and get full control of auto-ISO.

rbakerjr said:
I wanted to love this camera. In fact, as soon as I held it and went out shooting, I did love it. I like the feel, shutter sound, speed, few extra bells and whistles, but at the end of the day, it seems like so much more work to get me back to what I was taking for granted with the D90. Again, I know most of these issues are probably overcome but it seems to me like paying about $500 difference (cost of D7000 minus what I could sell the D90 for) and the few advantages I'd get would not outweigh these obstacles.

I hear you. For most the D7000 is a lot more camera than they need, and even more than the D90 it's all about satisfying the desires of those shooters who demand full involvement in the act of taking a picture. It is much less of a casual shooter's camera than the D90, though can be operated as such. In this regard, it is much closer to the D300 in spirit than the D90. If you have ever handled a D300, you will notice the complete lack of consumer-friendly features like scene modes, etc. and a profusion of buttons and levers offering direct control of all shooting parameters.

rbakerjr said:
I really appreciate any opinions you have about my findings. Frankly, though, if everything I've mentioned is normal, I'm not sure I'll be that eager to jump on the next upgrade either.

Thanks.

Bottom line, it sounds like you didn't really need to upgrade. The D90 is a very competent camera, even today. You may have been happier with the D5100 in some respects - same IQ as the D7000, easier to operate. But since you've sent the D7000 back, cool your heels for a while and continue to enjoy your D90 for what it is. There are big changes in the market ahead and next year will be very interesting.

Reilly Diefenbach · Sep 30, 2012

Looks like we may have another victim of the 35 1.8. The problem child in the Nikon lineup :^)
You should be able to get a skin tone you like with a 14 bit raw.
Have a look at Ray's recommendations and save a lot of time and frustration:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=37815130

Mako2011 · Sep 30, 2012

rbakerjr said:
I've been using my D90 for nearly 4 years but kept eyeing the D7000 since its release. I couldn't justify the price to upgrade, but when the price dropped to $1000 I pulled the trigger. I kept it one day and sent it back...Now I'm wondering if I got a bad camera or if I was too hasty. Let me tell you my 3 issues and see what your opinions are:

First, thanks for the well written post. No disrespect but one day and 125 pic makes for a not so solid comparison.

rbakerjr said:
1. Out of 125 pictures, almost all were SLIGHTLY out of focus. I used the kit 18-105 from my D90. I know you can fine tune the autofocus adjustment but I was surprised that would even be necessary on the same lens that typically comes as a kit with the D7000. I also used my 35 1.8. I didn't print any focus test charts, just my normal around the house stuff. I'm really not sure if it was front focusing or back focusing, just not tack sharp. This could probably have been fixed, but my next two issues were larger and made me not want to take the time or effort. I have read several forums saying that you need to "get used" to the autofocus. I don't really understand that. I used center point only so that the camera wouldn't surprise me by picking a target I didn't intend.

I had the same experience and all my pics were soft compared to my D70. Turned out to be a windows driver issue and how I had ViewNX2 set up. Once corrected, I was a bit stunned at the difference. One note: AF-Area mode "single" can actually be more prone to "picking the wrong contrast" vs "9pt" as "9pt" has more info to work with. Strange but true

...I know why now but don't want to write too much.

rbakerjr said:
2. Overall pinkish / orangish skin tones, weird white balance. Certainly adjustable, but why is this necessary? My D90 has always had a slightly cool white balance but very easily fixed when needed. This D7000 seemed to have gone way overboard in trying to correct that. Is that the way all D7000s look right out of the box? I know we all see things differently, but again, I compare to the D90 that gave me pleasing colors right out of the box. (I almost always use Auto WB except indoors without flash I'll typically use manual.)

Using the default out of the box Picture Control settings for the D7000 can indeed lead to this assessment. The D5100 for example is set a bit different out of the box. I know of no one that actually uses the default settings in there entirety.

rbakerjr said:
3. Flash photos indoors when using auto ISO camera chooses high ISO (800-1600). D90 always used 200-400. I understand the concept of using the higher ISO to brighten the background, but again, the D90 just did a better job for me here. The D7000 flash photos just seemed unpredictable to me. Also, for whatever reason, I seemed to have more red-eye than I've ever gotten with my D90. As a side note, I also tried a Sony A57 which is a very impressive camera, but it does the same thing with indoor flash.

The auto ISO with Pop-up implementation was changed with the D300s, I think. It differs greatly from the D90 and all Nikon's now use the new implementation. I like the new way but have learned to use it effectively. Some still prefer the old way and getting that output is still easily doable.

rbakerjr said:
I wanted to love this camera. In fact, as soon as I held it and went out shooting, I did love it. I like the feel, shutter sound, speed, few extra bells and whistles, but at the end of the day, it seems like so much more work to get me back to what I was taking for granted with the D90.

In one day and only 125 pics....your experience is expected and understood.

rbakerjr said:
Again, I know most of these issues are probably overcome but it seems to me like paying about $500 difference (cost of D7000 minus what I could sell the D90 for) and the few advantages I'd get would not outweigh these obstacles.

The real IQ dif with the D7K vs D7000 is really only gained when using it too take advantage of resolution, DR, and high ISO capability. Most certainly do not need to make that jump coming from the very fine D90. It also takes a bit of practice to gain all the advantages the 4800DX has over the D90 focus system. Many will not need those in day to day shooting.

rbakerjr said:
I really appreciate any opinions you have about my findings. Frankly, though, if everything I've mentioned is normal, I'm not sure I'll be that eager to jump on the next upgrade either.

The next body replacing the D7000 will also most likely lead to some of the same frustration if you adopt it and don't really commit a bit of time to adaptation. No disrespect intended...just a friendly Good Luck

Kim Letkeman · Sep 30, 2012

... so maybe the D7000 is too much camera. It does need to be tuned, but wow ... does it ever perform when you take the time.

As for AF ... yes, the D90 probably has better defaults. This has been an issue for a long time and people have bashed the D7000 over it incessantly. Read Thom Hogan's review though, and you will see that you need to work with the camera to get the best out of it.

One day is a bit of a joke frankly. Not even enough time to understand the features, never mind tune it.

And I can tell you that sending it to Nikon with explicit instructions to set the AF to factory specs gave me the sharpest and most accurate AF I've ever used ... and this is my 5th Nikon dSLR. And yes, it should not be needed. And most of the time, it is not needed. You can set an override as a starting point to recalibrate the AF system instead. Again ... all this takes more than one day to learn ...

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com

rbakerjr · Sep 30, 2012

Thank you for all your replies and your points are well taken. I agree that 125 shots is not enough to make an informed decision, however, even though Amazon has a very liberal return policy I hated to run numerous shutter actuations when I had already made up my mind that I wasn't going to keep the camera. There's no question from all the photos and reviews I've seen on line it's a more than capable camera. I think the actual point of all my rambling is "I wonder if this PARTICULAR camera was flawed.

I'm posting a quick shot I had taken in my kitchen: JPEG, Program Mode, Auto ISO set to minimum shutter 60 and maximum ISO 3200. I don't know why it chose an aperature of 7.1. White balance set to Auto with no bias. I used the on-board flash with no compensation. I have my D90 set the same except for maximum ISO of 1600. I did not take the exact photo at the same time with the D90, but I've done hundreds and the D90 would use an ISO of 200-400, 60 shutter speed and have perfect exposure of the subject and background with accurate looking colors.

Sure, I know you can adjust white balance in camera, shoot RAW, go to manual ISO, and shoot manual. In fact, I'm plenty comfortable using Aperture or Shutter Priority or

Full Manual. I have no trouble using manual ISO. But, I just want to know if this looks like the normal outcome you'd expect when setting the camera the way I have or if I got a defective unit.

I've read over the past 2 years every review and many forums on this camera so I'm reasonably sure there are a number of sub-par examples in existence.

The one I got by the way did not have any shutter actuations when I got it according to the check I did.

Again, thanks for all your responses.

Kim Letkeman · Sep 30, 2012

rbakerjr said:
Thank you for all your replies and your points are well taken. I agree that 125 shots is not enough to make an informed decision, however, even though Amazon has a very liberal return policy I hated to run numerous shutter actuations when I had already made up my mind that I wasn't going to keep the camera. There's no question from all the photos and reviews I've seen on line it's a more than capable camera. I think the actual point of all my rambling is "I wonder if this PARTICULAR camera was flawed.

No more than any other sample. It needed tuning.

rbakerjr said:
I'm posting a quick shot I had taken in my kitchen: JPEG, Program Mode, Auto ISO set to minimum shutter 60 and maximum ISO 3200. I don't know why it chose an aperature of 7.1. White balance set to Auto with no bias. I used the on-board flash with no compensation. I have my D90 set the same except for maximum ISO of 1600. I did not take the exact photo at the same time with the D90, but I've done hundreds and the D90 would use an ISO of 200-400, 60 shutter speed and have perfect exposure of the subject and background with accurate looking colors.

If you want ISO 200-400, might I suggest that you set that as your maximum?

A crop from a shot with Tamron 28-75 ... this was before Nikon adjusted my AF to perfection.

A shot in the house at 1600 ISO with the 85 1.8D at f/2.2 ... I hope I don't have to tell you that this is a bit of an AF challenge ... this was after I had dropped the D7000 from 6 feet onto concrete and the 85mm and 50mm were the only lenses I could get in range for perfect AF (-20 fine tune) ...

How about ISO 3200? Shot wide open at 1.8 in a very dark corner of a room ... the close eye is perfectly focused, which is the goal with this kind of composition ...

The D7000 is capable of remarkable images at very high ISO ...

Another shot, this time with the 50mm 1.8 at f/4 and 2000 ISO ...

rbakerjr said:
Sure, I know you can adjust white balance in camera, shoot RAW, go to manual ISO, and shoot manual. In fact, I'm plenty comfortable using Aperture or Shutter Priority or

Yes, these are all part of growing your skills. You don't need to fool around with WB if you shoot RAW. And setting the ISO is part of taking control. Lots of people prefer to let the camera choose, I only let my compacts do that.

rbakerjr said:
Full Manual. I have no trouble using manual ISO. But, I just want to know if this looks like the normal outcome you'd expect when setting the camera the way I have or if I got a defective unit.

That image is soft. As you can see above, that is not a preordained result. Just the result of inexperience with this specific body. And by the way ... once the camera is used, it's used. It no longer matters if you shot 125 or 1000 ...

rbakerjr said:
I've read over the past 2 years every review and many forums on this camera so I'm reasonably sure there are a number of sub-par examples in existence.

There are many subpar owners. Read Thom Hogan and you will learn that there are few subpar bodies.

rbakerjr said:
The one I got by the way did not have any shutter actuations when I got it according to the check I did.

So it was new. And now it is not.

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com

Barry Fitzgerald · Sep 30, 2012

With the AF send it in for service.

That is exactly what I will be doing with my body (-20 not enough to correct the AF which is not calibrated correctly)

But first make sure you have problems, use all your lenses and see what you get. AF fine tune is not a solution to a badly calibrated body. It's a temporary workaround..if you are using AF tine tune for all your lenses and dialling in big corrections something is wrong.

Forget Thom..does he have my camera or your camera? You can only judge on what you have in front of you. There is a lot of BS floating around these forums about user error and blaming the settings. If the camera can't hit a cows rear end in single AF point AF-S then it's got problems. And there have sure been a lot of threads about dodgy D7000 AF issues.

Regarding the WB I find that most cameras need some tweaking here either in camera or in software later on. I actually prefer the D90 metering over the D7000 which tends to over compensate for the AF point being used and can blow out the highlight end a bit more. It's not a huge issue, in some ways it meters in low light better than the D90

Pros and cons for both bodies. If you have a good D90 and don't need the extra bits then stick with that. I suppose the D7000 is a decent price now, it is tempting. Just make sure you check that autofocus..it's still an issue even with later production D7000's

mistermejia · Sep 30, 2012

Ha ha ha ha ha!! This comments or yours and other people are so funny to me because i did the same thing when i first got my D7000. Honestly i could not figure it out, comming from the D200 so i RETURNED it too. I kept saying this to myself: "It can't be that Nikon made this camra bad, there has to be something else wrong!"

I said what the heck!! I went out and bought it again and i said to myself that i was going to figure it out.

Yes, i was using it wrong, plus at that time i didn't know anything about AF Fine Tuning, plus i was using the camera in fully AUTO mode in which it always would give me VERY soft photos because the camera was using way too low shutter speeds so i started learning it in fully MANUAL. Plus the camera likes sharp lenses too. This camrea has an infinitely amount of manual adjustments that you have to study. Everything changed when the D7000 came out, at least for me.

Yesterday i was invited to a friends house and i took some shots with my 16-85 lens that i just recently AF Fined Tuned to -7 two days ago. FYI Nikon cameras seem to REQUIRE PP sharpening, the following photos did not come out as this sharp, but that is because of how Nikon cameras are, at least my D7000 and from what i recall my D200 was the same. Once you apply a little of sharpening with software its a done deal and BOOM!!, there you go!

Mako2011 · Sep 30, 2012

rbakerjr said:
I think the actual point of all my rambling is "I wonder if this PARTICULAR camera was flawed.

If these are actual JPEGS as the came strait from the camera or simple conversions using ViewNX2....
Then go here http://www.dpreview.com/members/settings/profile

And under the "Privacy and Safety" tab check "Allow" under "Allow visitors to download full size original images from your gallery" That way we can download the pic to ViewNX2 and check the camera settings you used and see if an obvious camera malfunction was at play. That assumes you uploaded pics/files as they came from the camera vs any change in Photoshop or the like.

rbakerjr said:
I'm posting a quick shot I had taken in my kitchen: JPEG, Program Mode, Auto ISO set to minimum shutter 60 and maximum ISO 3200. I don't know why it chose an aperature of 7.1. White balance set to Auto with no bias. I used the on-board flash with no compensation. I have my D90 set the same except for maximum ISO of 1600. I did not take the exact photo at the same time with the D90, but I've done hundreds and the D90 would use an ISO of 200-400, 60 shutter speed and have perfect exposure of the subject and background with accurate looking colors.

As noted earlier...Auto-ISO with pop-up works different now. To get the same results as you did with your D90 you have to adjust the settings.

rbakerjr said:
Full Manual. I have no trouble using manual ISO. But, I just want to know if this looks like the normal outcome you'd expect when setting the camera the way I have or if I got a defective unit.

See above so we might see full EXIF and let you know. BTW, thanks for providing examples...helps very much. Good luck and have a great day.

Mako2011 · Sep 30, 2012

All good advice.

Member said:
I actually prefer the D90 metering over the D7000 which tends to over compensate for the AF point being used and can blow out the highlight end a bit more. It's not a huge issue, in some ways it meters in low light better than the D90

I would add...from the Hogan review and accurate per my experience.

" Another surprise. The matrix meter on the D7000 is good. Real good. The old "overemphasis on focus sensor being used" has been mitigated somewhat (and really only happens when you use AF S focus). Moreover, I was surprised to see that it isn't easily fooled by large expanses of white or black. When Nikon said they tweaked the color-consideration aspect of the matrix system, they weren't kidding. The pattern recognition seems better and more refined, too. Things that completely flummoxed the D90 meter were handled just fine by the D7000. But watch your focus setting: it impacts the metering, and you need to be aware of that. The patterns and tendencies are different for single servo AF versus continuous."

" I've noticed a bit of chatter on the net about "overexposure." But that's not what's really happening with the D7000 metering system. No, it's that color matching and pattern matching coming into play. And correctly, I think. Let's say, for example, that there's a skin tone in the foreground of your scene. Perhaps the person with that skin is even a bit backlit. Well, the D7000 certainly sees that skin tone and knows where to put it on the tonal scale. But in previous Nikon matrix meters, if the background was producing values that would blow out the histogram, the matrix meter tended (but not always and not completely) to preserve highlights. I don't see as much of that with the D7000 (except in single servo AF) . It's not going to preserve those highlights at the expense of what it thinks is "subject." It certainly won't preserve them as much as previous Nikon matrix meters , even when it decides to do so. Two other things play into the "overexposure" issue. First, there's gamma. People coming from older (pre-D3) Nikon bodies and seeing Picture Controls for the first time are reacting to the mid-range boost that the default Picture Control applies compared to the old style image settings. Second is contrast. The defaults (and many of the other Picture Controls) push contrast a bit, and that has a tendency to make bright seem brighter."

It really is a different beast in many ways and needs to be treated as such for best output.

Member said:
Pros and cons for both bodies. If you have a good D90 and don't need the extra bits then stick with that. I suppose the D7000 is a decent price now, it is tempting. Just make sure you check that autofocus..

Good advice. Always good to check early and accurately.

Kim Letkeman · Sep 30, 2012

Barry Fitzgerald said:
With the AF send it in for service.

That is exactly what I will be doing with my body (-20 not enough to correct the AF which is not calibrated correctly)

Yes, when I dropped mine I sent it in for recalibration and it is now spot on with every lens I own (several Nikon, several Tamron, and a Sigma.)

Member said:
But first make sure you have problems, use all your lenses and see what you get. AF fine tune is not a solution to a badly calibrated body. It's a temporary workaround..if you are using AF tine tune for all your lenses and dialling in big corrections something is wrong.

Yes. Quite correct.

Member said:
Forget Thom..does he have my camera or your camera?

Mr. Transparent

Thom discusses the issue in technical terms and it is a worthy read, unlike advice that tells people to not read quality advice.

Member said:
You can only judge on what you have in front of you. There is a lot of BS floating around these forums about user error and blaming the settings. If the camera can't hit a cows rear end in single AF point AF-S then it's got problems. And there have sure been a lot of threads about dodgy D7000 AF issues.

Maybe you should read Thom ... he discusses the complexity of modern Nikon AF systems at length. And yes, the D7000 is more difficult to get right than it probably should be. On the other hand, it returns results that are worth the effort.

Are you recommending stepping back to entry dSLRs for their simplicity?

Member said:
Regarding the WB I find that most cameras need some tweaking here either in camera or in software later on. I actually prefer the D90 metering over the D7000 which tends to over compensate for the AF point being used and can blow out the highlight end a bit more. It's not a huge issue, in some ways it meters in low light better than the D90

As has already been mentioned, you need to spend more time getting educated. Thom can help you with that. The D7000 renders the subject more accurately. It is therefore slightly less conservative about preserving background highlights than you might be used to. It bears repeating that a craftsman does not blame his tools ... you seem to advocate the opposite.

Member said:
Pros and cons for both bodies. If you have a good D90 and don't need the extra bits then stick with that. I suppose the D7000 is a decent price now, it is tempting. Just make sure you check that autofocus..it's still an issue even with later production D7000's

So you don't own one?

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com

sshoihet · Sep 30, 2012

Barry Fitzgerald said:
But first make sure you have problems, use all your lenses and see what you get. AF fine tune is not a solution to a badly calibrated body. It's a temporary workaround..if you are using AF tine tune for all your lenses and dialing in big corrections something is wrong.

It's not a temporary workaround, it's a solution to the normal variation that's expected in the manufacturing process. The other solution is to have the camera body and all lenses sent in for calibration; I know which solution I prefer

I do agree thought that if you need a large correction on all lenses then the body is off. All mine require between -8 and -13; I could send in the body and have it corrected but I don't see any reason to do that.

In the past, many people tried several lenses until they found the ones that were sharpest on their body. This just makes the problem even worse when you switch to a new body later...if your old body was +8, you selected -8 lenses to have a "perfect" calibration. You get a new body that's -6 and now you're out by -14.

The body and the lenses may be within tolerance but now the combination of camera + lens has a stacking issue that pushes it out of what's acceptable to the user.

Barry Fitzgerald · Sep 30, 2012

Kim Letkeman said:
Maybe you should read Thom ... he discusses the complexity of modern Nikon AF systems at length. And yes, the D7000 is more difficult to get right than it probably should be. On the other hand, it returns results that are worth the effort.

I'm not buying it bar obvious things such as moving subject and the wrong AF setting sure I can accept that.

The AF can be as brochure appealing as it wants but what happens in the real world counts for more.

Kim Letkeman said:
Are you recommending stepping back to entry dSLRs for their simplicity?

No I personally never felt the need for 30+ AF points I think 9/11 is enough for most.

Kim Letkeman said:
As has already been mentioned, you need to spend more time getting educated. Thom can help you with that. The D7000 renders the subject more accurately. It is therefore slightly less conservative about preserving background highlights than you might be used to. It bears repeating that a craftsman does not blame his tools ... you seem to advocate the opposite.

I have an opinion on it so can Thom and anyone else

Like I said it some ways it's better than the D90 (low light, some backlit situations etc)

In other ways it's a bit too biased to the AF point, so hit a guy in a black suit and be prepared for a highlight blowout just one example. More so than the D90 was prone too. Also in some situations it can still be fooled with strong backlighting, not as much as the D90 but it's still there at times.

Bright days taking landscapes the exposure will vary a lot depending on where you put the AF Point. I think CW with an "average" setting would probably suit users better for that shooting.

Pros and cons here, no education because I've always been very interested in metering, across makers and brands. Nothing is perfect nobody expects that. Despite the thousands of metering zones the actual real world results are probably not much better than my 14-segment honeycomb-pattern metering on my Dynax 5d. That would tend to blow out skies with your AF Point on a darker area, it's actually less likely than the D7000 to get fooled with strong backlighting.

That's my take you can call it blame the tools, I don't think the metering is bad, it's quite good..but some areas for improvement (as listed above)

It's certainly better than the Pentax DSLR's I used which were easily fooled and all over the place at times.

Kim Letkeman said:
So you don't own one?

Strangely enough I do which is why I'm commenting on the AF and metering.

Kim Letkeman · Sep 30, 2012

Barry Fitzgerald said:
The AF can be as brochure appealing as it wants but what happens in the real world counts for more.

Yes, and the photographer is in charge of that. You can pretend that Thom is wrong when he says that most of these D7000 complaint threads were user error. But that is clearly the case, else we'd still see them in well considered and tested cases. We don't. What we see is beginners or impatient people throwing up their hands without even trying to figure out if it is their technique or their camera.

Another issue that Thom has mentioned so many times that it should be etched in peoples' skulls by now ... as pixel count and density go up, so does the need for stronger technique. Every time you bumped resolution, you also have to improve your skills, especially a habitual hand held photographer. A small blur of 1 or 2 pixels softens the image and it is not always obvious as to whether it was shake or focus when it is that subtle.

The point being that it takes some time to work all this out. And people who throw their hands up in no time at all end up just adding to the backlog of complaints that have no obvious justification.

Member said:
No I personally never felt the need for 30+ AF points I think 9/11 is enough for most.

Yes, that worked great half a decade ago. But ask anyone whether they really to step back that far ... I am much happier with the D7000 than I would be today with the D2Hs or D70s that I used to own. They were great cams, but they pale now, in every possible way.

Member said:
I have an opinion on it so can Thom and anyone else

Yes, opinions are like the alimentary canal exit ... everybody got one. But some people, for example Thom Hogan, put in massive amounts of testing to justify his opinions. And he has no choice, since his opinions are vetted by a huge community.

Member said:
Like I said it some ways it's better than the D90 (low light, some backlit situations etc)

Much better in low light. Much better body build. Handles Ai lenses properly. At least a full stop of noise and certainly much better handling of chroma. Far higher dynamic range. No contest at all, actually.

Member said:
In other ways it's a bit too biased to the AF point, so hit a guy in a black suit and be prepared for a highlight blowout just one example.

It amazes me that someone who claims all sorts of experience is so willing to abdicate the responsibility for the exposure. Good grief ... every modern camera has exposure compensation and you are supposed to understand your meter ... choosing to complain the D7000 is not the D90, which was not the D80, which was not the D70 is utterly ridiculous.

The craftsman does not blame his tools.

Member said:
More so than the D90 was prone too. Also in some situations it can still be fooled with strong backlighting, not as much as the D90 but it's still there at times.

So what? This means exactly nothing. The D7000 responds differently, as has every generation of cameras both professional and consumer. It is your responsibility to learn what your new camera does and to then control it.

You are advocating handing that responsibility to the camera and then moaning over it.

Member said:
Bright days taking landscapes the exposure will vary a lot depending on where you put the AF Point. I think CW with an "average" setting would probably suit users better for that shooting.

The D7000 is far less finicky than you are suggesting. I've shot at a marina where half the boats were very dark and half were white. I had no problems getting excellent exposures. I did not have to take heroic steps. I simply used the EC button appropriately.

And I always shoot matrix, except in the rarest of circumstances. And even if I used all three, that's why they are there ...

Member said:
Pros and cons here, no education because I've always been very interested in metering, across makers and brands. Nothing is perfect nobody expects that. Despite the thousands of metering zones the actual real world results are probably not much better than my 14-segment honeycomb-pattern metering on my Dynax 5d. That would tend to blow out skies with your AF Point on a darker area, it's actually less likely than the D7000 to get fooled with strong backlighting.

As Thom has written. The D7000 works hard to get the subject right. You are expected to intervene if you have something else in mind. That's where your skills come in.

Mom and pop are more likely to want what the D7000 delivers, since they would expect the subject to be exposed correctly.

Member said:
That's my take you can call it blame the tools, I don't think the metering is bad, it's quite good..but some areas for improvement (as listed above)

So far I am pretty sure that you are merely documenting a difference between two cameras. Which has existed every time Nikon have released a new one.

Member said:
It's certainly better than the Pentax DSLR's I used which were easily fooled and all over the place at times.

The Fujis are known to be like that. They should generally be shot in average mode. But the Nikons are not all over the place, just more willing to correctly expose the subject and ignore the background. You need to make the choice to save the background at the expense of the subject, for which an excellent case can be made as the right behavior.

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com

Barry Fitzgerald · Sep 30, 2012

Kim Letkeman said:
Yes, and the photographer is in charge of that. You can pretend that Thom is wrong when he says that most of these D7000 complaint threads were user error.

I'm sure some of the complaints are inexperienced users, but let's not beat around the bush, even you said your D7k was out AF wise. Are you that shocked that 2 years down the road I have one that's off too?

You can try to play the newbie card, but it's not going to work.

Kim Letkeman said:
Another issue that Thom has mentioned so many times that it should be etched in peoples' skulls by now ...

Does Thom have my camera? Nope so I can't see how he can convey an accurate view of that unless he pops over and tries it. 12mp to 16mp isn't a huge leap..you don't suddenly notice AF issues on a 16mp body if you didn't see them on a 12mp one.

Kim Letkeman said:
The point being that it takes some time to work all this out.

At this stage I am inclined to believe many of the AF complaints are justified..not all but a lot more than Thom seems to admit.

Kim Letkeman said:
Yes, that worked great half a decade ago. But ask anyone whether they really to step back that far ...

I'm just basing that on my own needs, I don't do sports so I rarely need tons of AF points. Quality v quantity counts for more to me

Kim Letkeman said:
Yes, opinions are like the alimentary canal exit ... .

And like I said I disagree with Thom and he's off the mark with his AF comments, and his metering ones are not really on target either.

Kim Letkeman said:
Much better in low light. Much better body build. Handles Ai lenses properly.

Well Kim having had the benefit of using the D90 extensively for real world shooting I would say at times it needed a bit more exposure in low light..not tons but that was an observation of mine.

Kim Letkeman said:
It amazes me that someone who claims all sorts of experience is so willing to abdicate the responsibility for the exposure. Good grief ..

Don't be amazed I've used dozens of SLR's and DSLR's, that puts me in a position to comment quite clearly on this ;-)

I understand metering very well I spent some time investigating it and dealing with it in real world shooting situations.

Kim Letkeman said:
The craftsman does not blame his tools.

Fuzzy excuses don't cut it Kim you should know better than to wheel out that old corny line.

I never said the D7k metering was "bad" just that it does over bias the metering to the AF point.

Kim Letkeman said:
The D7000 is far less finicky than you are suggesting.

Actually Kim it's well known the D7k has a heavy bias for the AF point

I could show this but it's been done here quite well

http://imagesbyeduardo.com/main/techniques/d7000-matrix-metering/

Kim Letkeman said:
And I always shoot matrix, except in the rarest of circumstances. And even if I used all three, that's why they are there ...

I agree there are times you want to use the other metering modes.

Kim Letkeman said:
As Thom has written. The D7000 works hard to get the subject right. You are expected to intervene if you have something else in mind. That's where your skills come in.

Thom only suggested the D7k struggled in bright light sunny days. That is not my experience (DPR again mentioned this), this is just one scenario where the metering can over expose. Neither nailed the AF point metering issue that pushes up the blacks to mid tones..and the highlights to kingdom come (sometimes not always)

It's not a "massive" issue, but a weaker aspect of the D7k

There is no such thing as perfect metering..but there is such a thing as a more appropriate one.

Kim Letkeman said:
Mom and pop are more likely to want what the D7000 delivers, since they would expect the subject to be exposed correctly.

Problem is for some shots the subject is overexposed too. And for scenic shots the sky can be blown. The D90 can be a bit over at times (and a bit under) but I feel the metering was overall better balanced than the D7k.

Rare to get a complete white sky with a D90..sometimes you would need -0.7..D7k is hotter and needs to be taken down a bit more

Kim Letkeman said:
So far I am pretty sure that you are merely documenting a difference between two cameras. Which has existed every time Nikon have released a new one.

That's up to Nikon on this one they make the camera. I have no idea why they can't nail it in this day and age but hey there you do..constant fiddling but never quite getting it.

Never said the D7k was all over the place the basic Pentax metering (non K-5) is quite poor and easily fooled into underexposure. You can de-link it from the AF points..that can help a bit but not great. In low light I had to put in as much as 2 stops at times it was underexposed quite a bit.

D7k metering can be summarised quite easily

Good
Not usually fooled by lots of white areas
Copes fairly well with back-lighting (but not entirely)
Good lower light metering though at times a bit too much

Bad
Tends to blow out skies quite a bit not just in bright light

Metering too biased to the active AF point thus pushing darks to midtones and highlights to gone at times, esp a problem if you subject is quite dark (hence dark suit comments)

Overall pretty good but a bit less bias (D90 style) and it would be ideal almost. D90 is better for metering overall IMO

I also feel the older 14 segment KM metering was better here too whilst a bit hot at times, it was hardly ever fooled in backlit situations..and rarely needed a big adjustment in exposure

Canon can be a little hot too..though not as much IMO, and more easily fooled with lots of white. Sony are quite good in strong light, but a bit under in low light or lots of lighter areas pushes it into underexposure (DSLR's now not the SLT's)

Difference between you and I is you read a spec sheet. I actually shot the cameras in the real world. So nope the D7k does not overexpose in most cases, but it can do in some scenarios (as listed above)

Mako2011 · Sep 30, 2012

Barry Fitzgerald said:
Kim Letkeman said:

The D7000 is far less finicky than you are suggesting.

Click to expand...

Actually Kim it's well known the D7k has a heavy bias for the AF point

I could show this but it's been done here quite well

http://imagesbyeduardo.com/main/techniques/d7000-matrix-metering/

Barry, as I noted above...the focus point bias can be completely controlled with a simple change in settings.

" The matrix meter on the D7000 is good. Real good. The old "overemphasis on focus sensor being used" has been mitigated somewhat (and really only happens when you use AF S focus)."

You might investigate further. I've found a few other ways to completely negate it....I think

Member said:
Member said:

As Thom has written. The D7000 works hard to get the subject right. You are expected to intervene if you have something else in mind. That's where your skills come in.

Click to expand...

Thom only suggested the D7k struggled in bright light sunny days. That is not my experience (DPR again mentioned this), this is just one scenario where the metering can over expose. Neither nailed the AF point metering issue that pushes up the blacks to mid tones..and the highlights to kingdom come (sometimes not always)

It's not a "massive" issue, but a weaker aspect of the D7k

Not really...did you notice:

" I've noticed a bit of chatter on the net about "overexposure." But that's not what's really happening with the D7000 metering system. No, it's that color matching and pattern matching coming into play. And correctly, I think. Let's say, for example, that there's a skin tone in the foreground of your scene. Perhaps the person with that skin is even a bit backlit. Well, the D7000 certainly sees that skin tone and knows where to put it on the tonal scale. But in previous Nikon matrix meters, if the background was producing values that would blow out the histogram, the matrix meter tended (but not always and not completely) to preserve highlights. I don't see as much of that with the D7000 (except in single servo AF). It's not going to preserve those highlights at the expense of what it thinks is "subject." It certainly won't preserve them as much as previous Nikon matrix meters, even when it decides to do so. Two other things play into the "overexposure" issue. First, there's gamma. People coming from older (pre-D3) Nikon bodies and seeing Picture Controls for the first time are reacting to the mid-range boost that the default Picture Control applies compared to the old style image settings. Second is contrast. The defaults (and many of the other Picture Controls) push contrast a bit, and that has a tendency to make bright seem brighter."

Again, knowing the settings really can make a big difference.

Member said:
Problem is for some shots the subject is overexposed too. And for scenic shots the sky can be blown. The D90 can be a bit over at times (and a bit under) but I feel the metering was overall better balanced than the D7k.

See above.

Member said:
Rare to get a complete white sky with a D90..sometimes you would need -0.7..D7k is hotter and needs to be taken down a bit more

See above it can be mastered. Using the suggestions Eduardo and others can really be helpful.

Member said:
Never said the D7k was all over the place the basic Pentax metering (non K-5) is quite poor and easily fooled into underexposure. You can de-link it from the AF points..that can help a bit but not great..

You can do the same with the D7K

Member said:
D7k metering can be summarised quite easily

Good
Not usually fooled by lots of white areas
Copes fairly well with back-lighting (but not entirely)
Good lower light metering though at times a bit too much

Bad
Tends to blow out skies quite a bit not just in bright light

Only if you set it to do that.

Member said:
Metering too biased to the active AF point thus pushing darks to midtones and highlights to gone at times, esp a problem if you subject is quite dark (hence dark suit comments)

Only in AF-S/AF-A ...... AF-Area mode can also change the effect.

Member said:
Overall pretty good but a bit less bias (D90 style) and it would be ideal almost. D90 is better for metering overall IMO

Actually is less biased than the D90 in same mode.

BTW, do you have a return date yet for the body? Good luck and have a great week.

D90 to D7000 my findings

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