16-35L: bad dream

Mishkin · Jan 19, 2003

Although my "B&H ad" test of my 16-35L on D60 ( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4203743 ) and examination of other's tests assured me that my copy is about as good or as bad as theirs, the worries about lens quality brought me a bad dream today. I realized in the sleep that although inside D60's 1.6x crop frame the image may look fair, it could be anything bad OUTSIDE this frame, and one day when I upgrade to full-frame DSLR, the lens may exhibit all kinds of nasty distortions near the edges of FF. Like these:

There could be anything - terrible sharpness, CA, severe vignetting, huge flare, as well as words like in the pic above, squirrels and all kinds of stuff!

Unfortunately, I don't have any means to test 16-35 full-frame. Except, maybe, when 1Ds is available at B&H and I can mount my lens on their display sample and shoot some test pics.

D60 with 16-35L owners, are you terrified by thinking "outside 1.6x box"? I woke up, but I still don't know what's the writing on the wall outside D60's crop.

Ken Phillips · Jan 19, 2003

... in fact, it is soooo much better than my late but not lamented 17-35 Sigma that I am astounded. (BTW, I kinda like the distortion at the edges of a super wide on full frame ... I use it to good effect.)

Scary dream there ... I will test it on my EOS-3 Real Soon Now ... and let you know if you should go sleepless or not.

There isn't a 16mm lens that's sharp edge2edge on a 35mm frame ... at least, none that we can afford. I only use mine when I need wider than the 28-70L can provide. Barrel, CA, and other distortions/aberrations can be removed to a large degree after the fact, if you have enough pixels to start with.
Ken

Mishkin said:
Although my "B&H ad" test of my 16-35L on D60

( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4203743 ) and examination of other's tests assured me that my copy is about as good or as bad as theirs, the worries about lens quality brought me a bad dream today. I realized in the sleep that although inside D60's 1.6x crop frame the image may look fair, it could be anything bad OUTSIDE this frame, and one day when I upgrade to full-frame DSLR, the lens may exhibit all kinds of nasty distortions near the edges of FF. Like these:

There could be anything - terrible sharpness, CA, severe
vignetting, huge flare, as well as words like in the pic above,
squirrels and all kinds of stuff!

Unfortunately, I don't have any means to test 16-35 full-frame.
Except, maybe, when 1Ds is available at B&H and I can mount my lens
on their display sample and shoot some test pics.

D60 with 16-35L owners, are you terrified by thinking "outside 1.6x
box"? I woke up, but I still don't know what's the writing on the
wall outside D60's crop.

--

A big heavy Canon DSLR, a not as heavy Canon SLR, a couple of off-white lens and some red-stripe lenses and one with a gold stripe, some flashes and tripods and remotes and a closet full of things that are banned in Britain. A minivan and a Fender Stratocaster. A three bedroom ranch on an acre. Also, absolutely no Canon 1200mm f/5.6. Yet.

Adam-T · Jan 19, 2003

Once mine arrives tomorrow and is tested on the D60 for "good copy", I'll be running off some Provia chromes on my EOS30E over a short period of time - gotta try out that ultra wide

--
Olympus C21OOUZI +B3OO +A28, Canon D6O, EOS7 and Half an S3O ;-)

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

Mishkin · Jan 19, 2003

Ken, how would you find this test at 16/2.8:
http://genji.image.pbase.com/u11/artemov/upload/11011802.16_16_028.jpg

is it something you would expect at the corners?

Thanks for your thoughts, and will be waiting for your FF test.

M.

Ken Phillips said:
Mishkin said:

Although my "B&H ad" test of my 16-35L on D60

( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4203743 ) and examination of other's tests assured me that my copy is about as good or as bad as theirs, the worries about lens quality brought me a bad dream today. I realized in the sleep that although inside D60's 1.6x crop frame the image may look fair, it could be anything bad OUTSIDE this frame, and one day when I upgrade to full-frame DSLR, the lens may exhibit all kinds of nasty distortions near the edges of FF. Like these:

There could be anything - terrible sharpness, CA, severe
vignetting, huge flare, as well as words like in the pic above,
squirrels and all kinds of stuff!

Unfortunately, I don't have any means to test 16-35 full-frame.
Except, maybe, when 1Ds is available at B&H and I can mount my lens
on their display sample and shoot some test pics.

D60 with 16-35L owners, are you terrified by thinking "outside 1.6x
box"? I woke up, but I still don't know what's the writing on the
wall outside D60's crop.

Click to expand...

--
A big heavy Canon DSLR, a not as heavy Canon SLR, a couple of
off-white lens and some red-stripe lenses and one with a gold
stripe, some flashes and tripods and remotes and a closet full of
things that are banned in Britain. A minivan and a Fender
Stratocaster. A three bedroom ranch on an acre. Also, absolutely no
Canon 1200mm f/5.6. Yet.

Mishkin · Jan 19, 2003

I will sleep [slightly] better knowing YOUR copy is good throughout FF. I still will be turning in my bed worrying about MY lens.

Maybe, I'll find someone with film body...

I'm curious to see your shots at 16mm FF, I'm missing true wide-angle very much, since I love to shoot landscapes.

Thanks,
M.

Adam-T said:
Once mine arrives tomorrow and is tested on the D60 for "good
copy", I'll be running off some Provia chromes on my EOS30E over a
short period of time - gotta try out that ultra wide

--
Olympus C21OOUZI +B3OO +A28, Canon D6O, EOS7 and Half an S3O ;-)

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

Ken Phillips · Jan 19, 2003

... about 1.5 megs! Straight out of the camera, in fine jpeg mode, ISO 100, exif data intact. Parts of the image may be out of focus due to the paper wrinkling ... I will do this later on a 'pod.
http://home.fuse.net/rmsind1/B9ED1616.JPG
Ken

Mishkin said:
is it something you would expect at the corners?

Thanks for your thoughts, and will be waiting for your FF test.

M.

Ken Phillips said:

Mishkin said:

Although my "B&H ad" test of my 16-35L on D60

( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4203743 ) and examination of other's tests assured me that my copy is about as good or as bad as theirs, the worries about lens quality brought me a bad dream today. I realized in the sleep that although inside D60's 1.6x crop frame the image may look fair, it could be anything bad OUTSIDE this frame, and one day when I upgrade to full-frame DSLR, the lens may exhibit all kinds of nasty distortions near the edges of FF. Like these:

There could be anything - terrible sharpness, CA, severe
vignetting, huge flare, as well as words like in the pic above,
squirrels and all kinds of stuff!

Unfortunately, I don't have any means to test 16-35 full-frame.
Except, maybe, when 1Ds is available at B&H and I can mount my lens
on their display sample and shoot some test pics.

D60 with 16-35L owners, are you terrified by thinking "outside 1.6x
box"? I woke up, but I still don't know what's the writing on the
wall outside D60's crop.

Click to expand...

--
A big heavy Canon DSLR, a not as heavy Canon SLR, a couple of
off-white lens and some red-stripe lenses and one with a gold
stripe, some flashes and tripods and remotes and a closet full of
things that are banned in Britain. A minivan and a Fender
Stratocaster. A three bedroom ranch on an acre. Also, absolutely no
Canon 1200mm f/5.6. Yet.

Click to expand...

--

A big heavy Canon DSLR, a not as heavy Canon SLR, a couple of off-white lens and some red-stripe lenses and one with a gold stripe, some flashes and tripods and remotes and a closet full of things that are banned in Britain. A minivan and a Fender Stratocaster. A three bedroom ranch on an acre. Also, absolutely no Canon 1200mm f/5.6. Yet.

Adam-T · Jan 19, 2003

You coule probably pick up a Rebel XS body for next to nothing and keep it for occasional Mega-Wide use - but then you'd have to borrow a slide scanner then ;-) or use your D60 with a macro lens..

--
Olympus C21OOUZI +B3OO +A28, Canon D6O, EOS7 and Half an S3O ;-)

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

Mishkin · Jan 19, 2003

Adam, could you please elaborate a little... I'm actually interested in getting a very lightweight and compact EOS film camera for full-frame and running. Anything that is on par with D60 in terms of AF and metering and under 100 bucks. I did quick search and can't find Rebel XS in the stores. Is it discontinued? Does it have mirror lock-up, Av, Tv, M modes?

Thanks a lot!

Adam-T said:
You coule probably pick up a Rebel XS body for next to nothing and
keep it for occasional Mega-Wide use - but then you'd have to
borrow a slide scanner then ;-) or use your D60 with a macro lens..

--
Olympus C21OOUZI +B3OO +A28, Canon D6O, EOS7 and Half an S3O ;-)

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

David Straight · Jan 19, 2003

Whoa!

Mishkin,

I loved that second graphic you posted, I'm rolling on the floor laughing! I do agree that your worries are valid given the price of your 16-35L lens and I'd be concerned if it were me. The MTF charts do look a bit squirrelly when the 16-35L is set at 16mm. On the plus side I saw a comparison on of the 16-35L to the 17-35L Fred Miranda's site and there's notable improvement (it's less blurry and focuses closer). Here's the link: http://www.fredmiranda.com/17_35VS16_35/index.html

I don't own any DSLR as of yet and this is mostly because I haven't decided what lens to get with the camera or how many lenses would satisfy my photographic habits. The whole issue of lenses stops me from buying a D60 at the moment. If I had a spare $10,000 USD then I'd just buy a plethora of lenses and see the pros and cons of each first hand. But, like most on here I can only justify something in the range of $3000 ~ $4000 for the whole sha-bang (and it's a stretch at that).

I'm starting to ramble so I will stop now.

Cheers!

David Straight

Mishkin said:
Although my "B&H ad" test of my 16-35L on D60

( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4203743 ) and examination of other's tests assured me that my copy is about as good or as bad as theirs, the worries about lens quality brought me a bad dream today. I realized in the sleep that although inside D60's 1.6x crop frame the image may look fair, it could be anything bad OUTSIDE this frame, and one day when I upgrade to full-frame DSLR, the lens may exhibit all kinds of nasty distortions near the edges of FF. Like these:

There could be anything - terrible sharpness, CA, severe
vignetting, huge flare, as well as words like in the pic above,
squirrels and all kinds of stuff!

Unfortunately, I don't have any means to test 16-35 full-frame.
Except, maybe, when 1Ds is available at B&H and I can mount my lens
on their display sample and shoot some test pics.

D60 with 16-35L owners, are you terrified by thinking "outside 1.6x
box"? I woke up, but I still don't know what's the writing on the
wall outside D60's crop.

Stan Jirman · Jan 19, 2003

This is an original 1Ds shot with the 16-35 @ 16mm / f5 / 1/100s, ISO 200, small resolution, high quality (10). Why don't they have a medium resolution, anyway?

http://www.phototrek.org/stanj/1DS-16.jpg

The lens is clearly far softer than my 28-70L even in the middle at 35mm and f8, but I guess that's part of the trade off.

I will have more 16mm wide shots at high resolution today.
--

Stan

Photo Travelogues: http://www.phototrek.org/
Equipment list is in the profile.

David Straight · Jan 19, 2003

Although, it is probably just as expensive I have to wonder if buying a non-zoom super wide lens would yield sharper images than the Canon 16-35L.

Stan Jirman said:
This is an original 1Ds shot with the 16-35 @ 16mm / f5 / 1/100s,
ISO 200, small resolution, high quality (10). Why don't they have a
medium resolution, anyway?

http://www.phototrek.org/stanj/1DS-16.jpg

The lens is clearly far softer than my 28-70L even in the middle at
35mm and f8, but I guess that's part of the trade off.

I will have more 16mm wide shots at high resolution today.
--

Stan

Photo Travelogues: http://www.phototrek.org/
Equipment list is in the profile.

Glenn Barber · Jan 19, 2003

The obvious solution is to test with a film camera - surely you must know someone with a canon mount slr.

Mishkin said:
Although my "B&H ad" test of my 16-35L on D60

( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4203743 ) and examination of other's tests assured me that my copy is about as good or as bad as theirs, the worries about lens quality brought me a bad dream today. I realized in the sleep that although inside D60's 1.6x crop frame the image may look fair, it could be anything bad OUTSIDE this frame, and one day when I upgrade to full-frame DSLR, the lens may exhibit all kinds of nasty distortions near the edges of FF. Like these:

There could be anything - terrible sharpness, CA, severe
vignetting, huge flare, as well as words like in the pic above,
squirrels and all kinds of stuff!

Unfortunately, I don't have any means to test 16-35 full-frame.
Except, maybe, when 1Ds is available at B&H and I can mount my lens
on their display sample and shoot some test pics.

D60 with 16-35L owners, are you terrified by thinking "outside 1.6x
box"? I woke up, but I still don't know what's the writing on the
wall outside D60's crop.

Adam-T · Jan 19, 2003

Mishkin said:
camera for full-frame and running. Anything that is on par with D60
in terms of AF and metering and under 100 bucks.

Try a Rebel-G then it has 3-point AF etc, No rebels have mirror lockup, that's Elan-7 territory ..

Mishkin said:
and can't find Rebel XS in the stores. Is it discontinued? Does it
have Av, Tv, M modes?

the XS and G have been discontinued for a long time, 2000s still are about new the XS has only the centre focus point and isn't E-TTL but does have AV & TV & M modes from what I remember... the G is a far better buy and should be under $100 used.

--
Olympus C21OOUZI +B3OO +A28, Canon D6O, EOS7 and Half an S3O ;-)

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

Adam-T · Jan 19, 2003

I now have David-P's, Mishkin's, Ken's and am downloading the 1DS tests for the 16-35L ----- Mine will be here tomorrow, it's handy to have these examples to test my copy against..

--
Olympus C21OOUZI +B3OO +A28, Canon D6O, EOS7 and Half an S3O ;-)

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

Mishkin · Jan 19, 2003

This shot looks sharp to me. It would be interesting to see a FF shot wide open, preferably flat subject or infinity.

Thanks a lot!

Stan Jirman said:
This is an original 1Ds shot with the 16-35 @ 16mm / f5 / 1/100s,
ISO 200, small resolution, high quality (10). Why don't they have a
medium resolution, anyway?

http://www.phototrek.org/stanj/1DS-16.jpg

The lens is clearly far softer than my 28-70L even in the middle at
35mm and f8, but I guess that's part of the trade off.

I will have more 16mm wide shots at high resolution today.
--

Stan

Photo Travelogues: http://www.phototrek.org/
Equipment list is in the profile.

bdnc · Jan 19, 2003

It would be interesting to see how severe that vignetting is wide open on the 1DS...

Stan Jirman said:
This is an original 1Ds shot with the 16-35 @ 16mm / f5 / 1/100s,
ISO 200, small resolution, high quality (10). Why don't they have a
medium resolution, anyway?

http://www.phototrek.org/stanj/1DS-16.jpg

The lens is clearly far softer than my 28-70L even in the middle at
35mm and f8, but I guess that's part of the trade off.

I will have more 16mm wide shots at high resolution today.
--

Stan

Photo Travelogues: http://www.phototrek.org/
Equipment list is in the profile.

bdnc · Jan 19, 2003

Mishkin said:
Although my "B&H ad" test of my 16-35L on D60

( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4203743 ) and examination of other's tests assured me that my copy is about as good or as bad as theirs, the worries about lens quality brought me a bad dream today. I realized in the sleep that although inside D60's 1.6x crop frame the image may look fair, it could be anything bad OUTSIDE this frame, and one day when I upgrade to full-frame DSLR, the lens may exhibit all kinds of nasty distortions near the edges of FF. Like these:

There could be anything - terrible sharpness, CA, severe
vignetting, huge flare, as well as words like in the pic above,
squirrels and all kinds of stuff!

Unfortunately, I don't have any means to test 16-35 full-frame.
Except, maybe, when 1Ds is available at B&H and I can mount my lens
on their display sample and shoot some test pics.

D60 with 16-35L owners, are you terrified by thinking "outside 1.6x
box"? I woke up, but I still don't know what's the writing on the
wall outside D60's crop.

Nation · Jan 19, 2003

bdnc said:
Stan Jirman said:

This is an original 1Ds shot with the 16-35 @ 16mm / f5 / 1/100s,
ISO 200, small resolution, high quality (10). Why don't they have a
medium resolution, anyway?

http://www.phototrek.org/stanj/1DS-16.jpg

The lens is clearly far softer than my 28-70L even in the middle at
35mm and f8, but I guess that's part of the trade off.

I will have more 16mm wide shots at high resolution today.
--

Stan

Photo Travelogues: http://www.phototrek.org/
Equipment list is in the profile.

Click to expand...

Adam-T · Jan 19, 2003

bdnc said:
Mishkin said:

Although my "B&H ad" test of my 16-35L on D60

( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4203743 ) and examination of other's tests assured me that my copy is about as good or as bad as theirs, the worries about lens quality brought me a bad dream today. I realized in the sleep that although inside D60's 1.6x crop frame the image may look fair, it could be anything bad OUTSIDE this frame, and one day when I upgrade to full-frame DSLR, the lens may exhibit all kinds of nasty distortions near the edges of FF. Like these:

There could be anything - terrible sharpness, CA, severe
vignetting, huge flare, as well as words like in the pic above,
squirrels and all kinds of stuff!

Unfortunately, I don't have any means to test 16-35 full-frame.
Except, maybe, when 1Ds is available at B&H and I can mount my lens
on their display sample and shoot some test pics.

D60 with 16-35L owners, are you terrified by thinking "outside 1.6x
box"? I woke up, but I still don't know what's the writing on the
wall outside D60's crop.

Click to expand...

--
Olympus C21OOUZI +B3OO +A28, Canon D6O, EOS7 and Half an S3O ;-)

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

JasperF · Jan 19, 2003

Mishkin said:
Although my "B&H ad" test of my 16-35L on D60

( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4203743 ) and examination of other's tests assured me that my copy is about as good or as bad as theirs, the worries about lens quality brought me a bad dream today. I realized in the sleep that although inside D60's 1.6x crop frame the image may look fair, it could be anything bad OUTSIDE this frame, and one day when I upgrade to full-frame DSLR, the lens may exhibit all kinds of nasty distortions near the edges of FF. Like these:

There could be anything - terrible sharpness, CA, severe
vignetting, huge flare, as well as words like in the pic above,
squirrels and all kinds of stuff!

Unfortunately, I don't have any means to test 16-35 full-frame.
Except, maybe, when 1Ds is available at B&H and I can mount my lens
on their display sample and shoot some test pics.

D60 with 16-35L owners, are you terrified by thinking "outside 1.6x
box"? I woke up, but I still don't know what's the writing on the
wall outside D60's crop.

just see if distortion parameteres are the same. 15-30 has less distortion but 20-35L aacts as very little sitortion if any.
-- http://www.fredmiranda.com/distortion/index.html
digital photography is digitized perception of reality

16-35L: bad dream

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