Is the E-M5 sensor response nonlinear?

The noise level is higher at higher ISOs. If we'd cut the noise at the same value as the true average (3800), we'd on average record lower values than 3800 for that pixel. To avoid that, it seems advisable to allow some "noise headroom" and to allow a bit more of it at higher ISOs than at lower.
Why is noise "level" - as in value and not just in amount - higher at higher ISOs? My guess was increased noise from the amplification stage, but Bobn2 explains reasonably why this is not the case.
The SNR of a negative feedback controlled amplifier is relatively constant, being in the main determined by the noise in the first stage, before the feedback loop (which corrects noise just as it corrects distortion). The open loop voltage gain of an operational amplifier might be 100dB or more. The gain required going from 200 to 25600 is 42dB, leaving about 60dB of feedback to control the noise. Essentially, that will be a constant SNR. That is why the commonly held idea that 'ISO noise' is due to noise from the gain amplifiers is a myth.
So where does the higher noise level (not amount) come from and what kind of noise is this (read noise or what else)?
 
Why is noise "level" - as in value and not just in amount - higher at higher ISOs? My guess was increased noise from the amplification stage, but Bobn2 explains reasonably why this is not the case.
In the highlights greater photon shot noise the higher the ISO. Really, greater photon shot noise the lower the exposure - whether through ISO adjustment or just under exposure.

Also, keep in mind few cameras use analog amplification for the very highest ISOs. Most generate the highest ISOs by digitally scaling a lower "analog" ISO.
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Ken W
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RAW level values correspond to the number of electrons measured in each well (with whatever multiplier/gain is applied), don't they?

So correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't photon shot noise a question of photon distribution, aka how many photons from the original "true" source may or may not hit a photo site?! I don't see why less photons should lead to higher raw values compared to more photons (1x 5 is the same as 5x 1, isn't it)?!

Of course less photons from the "true" (reflective) light source means that single photons coming from other sources have a higher impact on the resulting value. But again I fail to understand why that would lead to higher total raw values at higher ISO?
 
RAW level values correspond to the number of electrons measured in each well (with whatever multiplier/gain is applied), don't they?
Yes.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't photon shot noise a question of photon distribution, aka how many photons from the original "true" source may or may not hit a photo site?!
Yes. It is proportional to the square root of the number of photons counted.
I don't see why less photons should lead to higher raw values compared to more photons (1x 5 is the same as 5x 1, isn't it)?!
Maybe I'm not following the question. I thought everyone is talking about the maximum of the distribution. If the distribution gets wider then the maximum gets larger even if the average is still the same. Fewer photons means a wider distribution. As a rough example using your logic 4*(1+e) does not equal 1*(4+2e), where e is proportional to the standard deviation of the photon shot noise.

Note again shot noise is square root law while ISO gain is linear. This means that once normalized to RAW values the photon shot noise amplitude increases as the square root of the ISO setting.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding the question, having trouble following this thread.

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Ken W
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I may still get something wrong, but to my understanding photon shot noise is not something that is added, but rather information that is missing . This means, more photons would be needed to distribute over the total sensor area to average towards the original information (object that is photographed).

So larger raw values mean more photons hit a photo site, but high ISO photon shot noise is a problem of too few photons hitting the sites, isn't it? How then does photon shot noise contribute to larger raw values?
 
I don't think I'm likely to succeed in describing shot noise or Poisson statistics in a post. These might be better references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_noise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_distribution
I may still get something wrong, but to my understanding photon shot noise is not something that is added, but rather information that is missing .
As far as information theory is concerned adding noise is the same as losing information.
This means, more photons would be needed to distribute over the total sensor area to average towards the original information (object that is photographed).
Yes, more photons means more scene information recoverable.
So larger raw values mean more photons hit a photo site,
No, larger RAW values mean a larger number was stored in the RAW file and that is all without further information. ISO typically tells you how many photons correspond to a given RAW value. So the same RAW value at ISO800 represents far fewer electrons (1/8th as many) as that RAW value at ISO100.
but high ISO photon shot noise is a problem of too few photons hitting the sites, isn't it?
Yes.
How then does photon shot noise contribute to larger raw values?
More noise means a higher maximum given the same average.
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Ken W
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More noise means a higher maximum given the same average.
But again, photon shot noise relates to a spatial average and maximum spatial distribution, not per pixel/site maximum, does it not?

Why does a single photo-site/pixel get a higher maximum value when it's exposed for a shorter time/less photons than when it is exposed for a longer duration/more photons?

The explanation I would come up with is that single sites/pixels may have statistically higher maximum levels before linear analog gain than the gain multiplier would account for. I.e. at ISO 400 double the analog gain is used vs. ISO 200, but more than half the number of photons may (or may not) have hit a site/pixel. Is this how ISO vs. shot noise - and thus need for increased maximum raw levels - works?
 
More noise means a higher maximum given the same average.
But again, photon shot noise relates to a spatial average and maximum spatial distribution, not per pixel/site maximum, does it not?
Photon Shot Noise is a property of the light itself (not the detector), and thus exists even in the case of a single photo-detector (photo-site). It exists on the level of a single isolated photo-site.

See this paper:

http://learn.hamamatsu.com/articles/ccdsnr.html

... which is relevant (in may ways) to MOS as well as CCD type image-sensors.
Why does a single photo-site/pixel get a higher maximum value when it's exposed for a shorter time/less photons than when it is exposed for a longer duration/more photons?
Because on a temporal (over time) basis, it is the ratio of the collected (summed, integrated) electron chrages resulting from arriving photons (signal) divided by the uncertainty of the (noise) that matters (Signal/Noise Ratio).

As a larger number of photons are summed over time, and the uncertainty (of photon shot noise) increases only by the square-root of that number summed, the ratio is higher when the exposure-time is longer - and the ratio is lower when the exposure-time is shorter.
 
More noise means a higher maximum given the same average.
But again, photon shot noise relates to a spatial average and maximum spatial distribution, not per pixel/site maximum, does it not?
Shot noise is ergodic, whether you look at the same photo site over multiple exposures or multiple photo sites in a single exposure the distribution is the same.
Why does a single photo-site/pixel get a higher maximum value when it's exposed for a shorter time/less photons than when it is exposed for a longer duration/more photons?
A single photo site has a higher probability of getting a extremely low or extremely high relative count the lower the number of photons accumulated on average.
The explanation I would come up with is that single sites/pixels may have statistically higher maximum levels before linear analog gain than the gain multiplier would account for. I.e. at ISO 400 double the analog gain is used vs. ISO 200, but more than half the number of photons may (or may not) have hit a site/pixel. Is this how ISO vs. shot noise - and thus need for increased maximum raw levels - works?
Yeah, I think you are getting it here. If we do half the exposure but double the gain the average RAW level will be the same between the two exposures. The maximum possible (or likely) RAW value will be higher in the shorter exposure, higher gain case.

Detail Man also gave a nice explanation just before this post.

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Ken W
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More noise means a higher maximum given the same average.
But again, photon shot noise relates to a spatial average and maximum spatial distribution, not per pixel/site maximum, does it not?
Temporal at a specific spatial frequency.
Why does a single photo-site/pixel get a higher maximum value when it's exposed for a shorter time/less photons than when it is exposed for a longer duration/more photons?
When people speak of noise, they usually mean the NSR (noise-to-signal ratio). For example, let's say that 200 photons fall on a pixel that has a QE of 50%. That means that the pixel will release 100 electrons, and the noise will be sqrt 100 = 10 electrons, using the 100 electrons as an approximation for the mean signal (which is a very good approximation until the signal gets very low -- say below 20 electrons).

The NSR / pixel is then 10 electrons / 100 electrons = 10%. If we compute the NSR over four pixels that have the same mean signal, the NSR would be 5%. In other words, the noise is a function of area over which we view the photo (and why 100% crops are mosre noisy than photos resized for web display).
The explanation I would come up with is that single sites/pixels may have statistically higher maximum levels before linear analog gain than the gain multiplier would account for. I.e. at ISO 400 double the analog gain is used vs. ISO 200, but more than half the number of photons may (or may not) have hit a site/pixel. Is this how ISO vs. shot noise - and thus need for increased maximum raw levels - works?
ISO has nothing to do with it directly. What matters is the total amount of light falling on the area that we are measuring the noise over. However, on many sensors, higher ISOs result in less read noise (the additional noise added by the sensor and supporting hardware) which is why, for example, 1/100 ISO 100 pushed a stop looks more noisy than 1/100 ISO 200.

As the amount of light falling on the sensor decreases, the read noise becomes more of a player. So, when we lift the shadows of a base ISO photo, we are seeing more and more of the read noise, and photos taken at high ISOs are mostly shadow that is amplified by the higher ISO, which is why read noise becomes dominant in high ISO photography.

For example, let's say we have two sensors of the same size and pixel count -- one with a flat read noise of 4 electrons (ISOless) and the other with a read noise that ranges from 16 electrons at base ISO to 2 electrons at ISO 6400 (non-ISOless).

If you boost the shadows of the ISOless sensor, you'll see a lot less noise than if you boost the shadows of the non-ISOless sensor (greater base ISO DR). However, an ISO 6400 photo will look less noisy from the non-ISOless sensor than from the ISOless sensor.

So, at base ISO, the photon noise is dominant over most of the photo except the extreme shadows. As the light goes down and we raise the ISO to preserve the brightness for any given aperture and shutter speed, more and more of the photo moves to shadow, and the effects of read noise become more and more dominant over photon noise.

Hope this helps, even if it's not exactly what you were asking about. ;)
 
Shot noise is ergodic, whether you look at the same photo site over multiple exposures or multiple photo sites in a single exposure the distribution is the same.
No, not for a usual photo. The distribution varies from pixel to pixel. Unless, you are considering a "flat field" or a uniformly-lit even surface.

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Dj Joofa
http://www.djjoofa.com
 
No, not for a usual photo. The distribution varies from pixel to pixel. Unless, you are considering a "flat field" or a uniformly-lit even surface.
Which is exactly what is being tested in this case...

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Ken W
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Photon Shot Noise is a property of the light itself (not the detector), and thus exists even in the case of a single photo-detector (photo-site). It exists on the level of a single isolated photo-site.
Yes, I know and after some thinking about it I now (should) understand the connection of these things (again). The temporal (distribution) part of when photons arrive was the part I forgot about while the spatial (distribution) part of where photons arrive was present. What I missed was a straight forward explanation of how these things interact with ISO gain multipliers. Basically the lack of understanding was on my side (thus I used that expression before), but everyone here assumed things - partly contradicting ones - without going into detail why one leads to the other.

Basically the temporal distribution of photons arrival can lead to a situation where in comparison of two exposure times more photons may (or may not) arrive at a site within the shorter time span than the relation between two exposure times would suggestion. I.e. more than half the photons may (or may not) arrive within half the time. Once the sum of these photons is linearly multiplied (linear analog gain increase) you may get higher raw levels due to the gain/multiplication process.

Or even more down to earth and very simplified math: When you get 10 photons at ISO 200 then you don't necessarily get 5 photons at ISO 400 within half the exposure time. 10 (true signal) photons at ISO 200 may multiply to raw level 2000, but at ISO 400 and half the time you may get something like 6 photons that would multiply to raw level 2400.
Why does a single photo-site/pixel get a higher maximum value when it's exposed for a shorter time/less photons than when it is exposed for a longer duration/more photons?
Because on a temporal (over time) basis, it is the ratio of the collected (summed, integrated) electron chrages resulting from arriving photons (signal) divided by the uncertainty of the (noise) that matters (Signal/Noise Ratio).
But as far as understanding is concerned this all is more math than practical implication. :P I was more after a practical explanation as to why practically less (total) photons lead to higher end results. With the explanations given I had to remember and deduct a few things before understanding the implications.

More of my own shortcoming, but one I might share with other readers (and maybe even participants of the discussion). ;)
As a larger number of photons are summed over time, and the uncertainty (of photon shot noise) increases only by the square-root of that number summed, the ratio is higher when the exposure-time is longer - and the ratio is lower when the exposure-time is shorter.
Yes, that square-root (1.41xyz) connection has been mentioned in several posts, hopefully that helps me to remember in between all the other information my brain is sucking in all the time. Thanks for putting these relations into perspective.
 
Yeah, I think you are getting it here. If we do half the exposure but double the gain the average RAW level will be the same between the two exposures. The maximum possible (or likely) RAW value will be higher in the shorter exposure, higher gain case.
Thanks for the follow-up. I was missing the descriptive explanation of how the combination of photon noise and analog (ISO) gain levels lead to the higher raw level values. Now everything seems clear enough to keep following the discussion. :)
 
Why does a single photo-site/pixel get a higher maximum value when it's exposed for a shorter time/less photons than when it is exposed for a longer duration/more photons?
When people speak of noise, they usually mean the NSR (noise-to-signal ratio). For example, let's say that 200 photons fall on a pixel that has a QE of 50%. That means that the pixel will release 100 electrons, and the noise will be sqrt 100 = 10 electrons, using the 100 electrons as an approximation for the mean signal (which is a very good approximation until the signal gets very low -- say below 20 electrons).
Originally coming from an audio world I usually hear the term SNR (signal-to-noise ratio), but NSR and QE usually isn't needed there. Thanks for putting it together for me.
The NSR / pixel is then 10 electrons / 100 electrons = 10%. If we compute the NSR over four pixels that have the same mean signal, the NSR would be 5%. In other words, the noise is a function of area over which we view the photo (and why 100% crops are mosre noisy than photos resized for web display).
Which leads us to spatial distribution again, but doesn't help me understand why single pixels may get higher raw levels.
ISO has nothing to do with it directly. What matters is the total amount of light falling on the area that we are measuring the noise over.
That's what I had in my mind, but at the same time that wouldn't explain higher possible raw levels on a single pixel. Combining the temporal aspect of photon noise with analog gain multiplication was the missing link for me.
However, on many sensors, higher ISOs result in less read noise (the additional noise added by the sensor and supporting hardware) which is why, for example, 1/100 ISO 100 pushed a stop looks more noisy than 1/100 ISO 200.
Did we yet see practical comparisons ( images ) of how the E-M5 sensor behaves in this aspect? Knowing how Olympus keeps analog gain lower than stated ISO in order to digitally push levels to arrive at the setup ISO could lead one to believe that lower gain isn't a problem for the sensor.

On the Fujifilm X10 I did comparisons of digitally pushed lower ISO images vs. higher ISO images in order to assess how non EXR based DR 200/400 modes work under the hood. Essentially you cannot tell the two apart (for ISO 100 vs. 400), which would suggest that the X10 sensor works practically ISOless in these areas.

I'd like to see some images of real objects other than the black back of a lens-cap to get an idea of how the E-M5 works in practice at different ISO/exposure time vs. digital gain/curves scenarios. Guess I have to do them myself. ;)
As the amount of light falling on the sensor decreases, the read noise becomes more of a player. So, when we lift the shadows of a base ISO photo, we are seeing more and more of the read noise, and photos taken at high ISOs are mostly shadow that is amplified by the higher ISO, which is why read noise becomes dominant in high ISO photography.
Yes, but the discussion in another thread ( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=41988325 ) seems to suggest that low ISO read-noise is different from high ISO read-noise (non-ISOless) in a way that is practically relevant. Comparing real images should be the way to get a better "picture" on that instead of just tossing around rather abstract math.
So, at base ISO, the photon noise is dominant over most of the photo except the extreme shadows. As the light goes down and we raise the ISO to preserve the brightness for any given aperture and shutter speed, more and more of the photo moves to shadow, and the effects of read noise become more and more dominant over photon noise.
While I understand the relation you are describing I am missing one thing: At lower ISO photon noise may be more relevant than read noise, but with higher ISO/less exposure time you not only get more read-noise affected shadows, but also stronger multiplied photon noise (1x110 = 110, but 2x56 = 112 and 4x 28 = 116). So again it would be interesting to know where all these things come together in practice (images).
Hope this helps, even if it's not exactly what you were asking about. ;)
Thanks a lot for the good explanation! :)
 
On the Fujifilm X10 I did comparisons of digitally pushed lower ISO images vs. higher ISO images in order to assess how non EXR based DR 200/400 modes work under the hood. Essentially you cannot tell the two apart (for ISO 100 vs. 400), which would suggest that the X10 sensor works practically ISOless in these areas.
This is for L sized images at ISO 400 and lower and hopefully I am not mixing things up with DR 200/400 vs. DR 100 here (testing too many things to keep track in my head). M size images use EXR pixel-binning and thus behave differently and L size images above ISO 400 make a "jump" of chroma noise between ISO 400 and 800 which should lead to differences between analog and digital gain (did not check for that).
 
Photon Shot Noise is a property of the light itself (not the detector), and thus exists even in the case of a single photo-detector (photo-site). It exists on the level of a single isolated photo-site.
... What I missed was a straight forward explanation of how these things interact with ISO gain multipliers. Basically the lack of understanding was on my side (thus I used that expression before), but everyone here assumed things - partly contradicting ones - without going into detail why one leads to the other.
You mentioned that you have some experience in the subject of audio engineering.

ISO Gain is just the amplification-factor ("gain") of a signal (usually a voltage signal in these cases).

Audio amplifiers pass and sometimes amplify audio signals of interest. The transistors, diodes, and resistors that the amplifier circuits are made out of have their own internal "noise-sources". "Shot noise" (in semiconductors, not in light itself in this particular case) exists in the semiconductors (transistors and diodes).

(Vectorally) summing all of the various noise-sources present in an audio amplifier (which include other types of noise in addition to semiconductor shot-noise) in a way that represents the (total) noise (as an input-referred quantity of noise) allows us to determine the audio amplifier's Dynamic Range (the ratio of the maximum peak input signal that the amplifier can pass without non-linear distortion divided by the root-mean-square value of tht etoal input-referred noise), or the audio amplifier's Signal/Noise Ratio (ratio of the maximum root-mean-square that the amplifier can pass without non-linear distortion divided by the root-mean-square of the total input-referred noise).

The photo-sites are just "transducers" (not unlike microphones or turntable or guitar pickups). They "transduce" (translate) photonic energy into electrical charge (electrons) that is stored in the photo-cell of a photo-site just like the way that a capacitor stores units of charge (electrons).

There is noise in the light itself that (only in the 1980s) has been proved to be a characteristic of the light itself (and not the transducer). (Sort of) similarly, Brownian motion of molecules in the air generates sound-pressure-waves (noise) that are picked up by even the finest microphones - becaues it is truly there.

As you can see from DxOMark's data, the SNR of photo-cells is on the order of only around 40 dB.

The MOSFET amplifiers that interface to the photo-cells with each MOS image-sensor photo-site have their own noise (which is on the order of around -80 dB below the voltage signal level that they can roughly linearly process). They also add more (summed) capacitance to the photo-cells that they interface to. bobn2 tells us that it is that (input) capacitance of the MOSFET amplifiers which typically "dominates" over the capactiance of the photo-cells themselves.
Basically the temporal distribution of photons arrival can lead to a situation where ... half the photons may (or may not) arrive within half the time. Once the sum of these photons is linearly multiplied (linear analog gain increase) you may get higher raw levels due to the gain/multiplication process.
Or even more down to earth and very simplified math: When you get 10 photons at ISO 200 then you don't necessarily get 5 photons at ISO 400 within half the exposure time. 10 (true signal) photons at ISO 200 may multiply to raw level 2000, but at ISO 400 and half the time you may get something like 6 photons that would multiply to raw level 2400.
"Noise" is an uncertainty of measurement that (relative to the "Signal") decreases with the square-root of the number of measurements when what we are measuring is random in nature .

The (complete) "signal" is (actually) the (desired) "signal" with the (undeired) "noise" (also) added to that "signal". That extra "noise" that "rides" on top of the signal is only really noticable when the ratio of the signal divided by the noise is smaller - such as when the SNR is lower, as in the case of a lower magnitude of "light signal".

Signal/Noise Ratio is (actually, most rigorously) = (Signal + Noise) / (Noise)

The numerator of the above formula is the part that we are (casually) describing as "signal" only. As the ratio of the Signal divided by the Noise decreases (in lower light-levels), the "Signal + Noise" does not decrease quite as much as we would think - because there is Noise adding to that Signal. When amplifiers amplify all of this (such as at higher ISO Gains) we see the effect more prevalently.

The amplification that takes place with higher "ISO Gains" multiplies (amplifies) both the "signal" as well noise - in equal geometric amounts.
Why does a single photo-site/pixel get a higher maximum value when it's exposed for a shorter time/less photons than when it is exposed for a longer duration/more photons?
Because on a temporal (over time) basis, it is the ratio of the collected (summed, integrated) electron chrages resulting from arriving photons (signal) divided by the uncertainty of the (noise) that matters (Signal/Noise Ratio).
As a larger number of photons are summed over time, and the uncertainty (of photon shot noise) increases only by the square-root of that number summed, the ratio is higher when the exposure-time is longer - and the ratio is lower when the exposure-time is shorter.
Yes, that square-root (1.41xyz) connection has been mentioned in several posts, ...
It's just the square-root function. The Photon Shot Noise varies by that relationship as the amount of light (or the intensity of light per unit area, or the total amount of light transduced by an image-sensor), varies. The square-root of 2 is 1.414, square-root of 4 is 2, square-root of 16 is 4, etc. ...
 
Thanks for the explanation. I knew most of these things, but when I asked for why raw levels of high ISO (higher amplification, shorter exposure time) images can be higher the missing link was that shot noise indeed does have a temporal component, which in turn is amplified/multiplied by the following analog gain stage. It's the fact that within half the time you can get more than half the electrons that wasn't clear to me when I asked.
As you can see from DxOMark's data, the SNR of photo-cells is on the order of only around 40 dB.
How static has that limit been for the last couple of years and is there a realistic chance to increase this range anytime soon?
The MOSFET amplifiers that interface to the photo-cells with each MOS image-sensor photo-site have their own noise (which is on the order of around -80 dB below the voltage signal level that they can roughly linearly process). They also add more (summed) capacitance to the photo-cells that they interface to. bobn2 tells us that it is that (input) capacitance of the MOSFET amplifiers which typically "dominates" over the capactiance of the photo-cells themselves.
Interesting. Within what border does amplification of that 40 dB window happen within the 80 dB range, does it happen close to the clipping point (away from the noise) or rather somewhat below?
It's just the square-root function. The Photon Shot Noise varies by that relationship as the amount of light (or the intensity of light per unit area, or the total amount of light transduced by an image-sensor), varies. The square-root of 2 is 1.414, square-root of 4 is 2, square-root of 16 is 4, etc. ...
Thanks for pointing that out again. As you might have guessed I don't care too much for the math, because I usually never really need it. But of course this makes me less of a profound part of an discussion based on these math and the accompanying understanding. There's just not enough room in my head for everything (including remembering things I already learned), so I take the practical route and might have to ask from time to time. Also helps to keep the mind open, but I recognize the additional effort for people I ask these things about. Sorry for that. ;)
 

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