XPS 8500 plus some other stuff

I am thinking about getting a minimally equipt Dell XPS 8500 and adding memory up to 16GB, a second hard drive and a hard drive rack for installing a backup SATA drive, replacing the DVD with a BR burner and replacing the video card with a GTX 560 (1 gb).

Hopefully the power supply will be sufficient. The max I would have at one time would be 2 internal SATA drives, one additional SATA drivein the rack during weekly backups, the BlueRay burner and the video card.

The NewEgg PS calculator estimates I would need 473 watts - I am guessing they always estimate on the high side .

When I price out building a similarly configured box I am around $1,500, with this I should only be around $1,100.

Hopefully I can fit the hard drive rack where a second DVD would be mounted on the XPS 8500.

I plan to use the computer for CS6, limited video editing and general use - no computer gaming.
Any suggestions or comments?
Rick
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Nikon Dee 300, Dee-Seventy 's' ,Nikon SB-Eight Hundred Flash

I'd get the $899 config and use the coupon you can find for $50 off XPS desktops $799 or higher right now (it's on lots of coupon sites).

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=dxdwps2&c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&model_id=xps-8500

That would put your cost of the XPS 8500 with a Core i7 3770, 1TB drive and 8GB (2x4GB of 1600Mhz DDR3 leaving two slots open) of memory at $849.99.

Then, you could buy 2x4GB to bring it up to 16GB total for around $50 now at vendors like newegg.com

That Dell config comes with an HD 7570 in it. But, if you wanted faster, you should be able to use anything up to a GTX 560 in it on the Nvidia side. Note the Nvidia recommends a 450 Watt PSU with it, and they're usually on the conservative side:

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-560/specifications

So, a GTX 560 or GTX 560SE should be fine in it (max power draw is around 150 Watts with them), and Dell claims the PSU can handle video cards drawing up to 225 Watts. See this XPS 8500 hands on preview for one example, where Dell shipped it with an HD 7870 in it:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2403807,00.asp

As for using one of the optical bays for a hard drive, I've done that before with Dell computers without any issues, and you can buy a 3.5" to 5.25" adapter bracket for around $5

Note that if you don't mind the older XPS 8300, there's a better deal on one right this minute. I found a listing for one with a Core i7 2600 for $699 that some of the coupon sites have been mentioning. You don't get USB 3.0 with it. But, it's got eSATA, with 4 SATA ports on the Motherboard for supporting it's internal drives (two are SATA III and two are SATA ii) and you can buy a USB 3.0 PCIe card for about $15 now.

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=19&dgvcode=ss&c=US&l=EN&vw=list&oc=DXDAMS3

But, it's got 4x2GB in it. So, you'd need to yank all 4 DIMMs if you wanted a 16GB machine and replace them with 4x4GB (unless you're fine with 12GB where you could leave 2x2GB in it and add 2x4GB for 12GB total).

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JimC

Thanks Jim,

I can get the same XPS 8500 configuration at Costco for $849.99, which appears to be their normal price.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11758872&whse=BC&Ne=5000001+4000000&eCat=BC |84&N=4047237 4294967022&Mo=11&No=5&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&topnav=

I think I will probably rather stick with the 3rd gen I7 since I tend to keep my PC quite a while (my current machine I built in 2003), but I appreciate the info on the 8300.

My plan is to buy the 8500 and try out the included video card and see if I am happy with the performance. If so I can wait and upgrade in the future.

If the 2nd DVD slot is a standard 5 1/4 drive mount the hard drive rack should fit fine, I just never know when Dell might use non-standard stuff. The drive rack allows me to plug in a SATA drive, in a cartridge, from the outside of the PC. I do a weekly backup of my current machine that way, When the backup is done I remove the drive and put it in safe storage. Probably could use an eSATA connect external drive to do the same thing but I like the convenience of the cartridge-mounted SATA drive. The rack only cost about $20 and the cartridges about $15 each (you mount the SATA drive in the cartridge yourself - take about 30 seconds).

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1535373&CatId=285

Rick

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Nikon Dee 300, Dee-Seventy 's' ,Nikon SB-Eight Hundred Flash

Jim Cockfield said:

So, a GTX 560 or GTX 560SE should be fine in it (max power draw is around 150 Watts with them), and Dell claims the PSU can handle video cards drawing up to 225 Watts.

Click to expand...

IOW. if Dell's claim is accurate, you could get away with something faster drawing more power than the GTX 560.

But, I'd probably stop at the GTX 560 (or 560SE using even less power) to be on the safe side.

Dell sold the XPS 8300 with a GTX 560Ti at one point, and it's also using a 460 Watt PSU. But, they used an OEM version of the 560TI drawing a bit less power.

So, I'd probably stop at the GTX 560 instead, as that's within Nvidia's recommended PSU requirements of 450 Watts using the Dell's 460 Watt PSU, and Nvidia says the GTX 560 has a max power draw of 150 Watts (which is 75 Watts less than Dell claims the 460 Watt PSU in the XPS 8500 can provide to a graphics card).

IOW, I'd probably lean towards the conservative side and stick with the new GTX 560SE (EVGA and Zotac have them now, and newegg.com stocks them for $129.99) or faster GTX 560, versus a GTX 560Ti or GTX 570, despite Dell's claims for that PSU being able to provide up to 225 Watts to Video Cards.
.
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JimC

Rick8800 said:

Thanks Jim,

I can get the same XPS 8500 configuration at Costco for $849.99, which appears to be their normal price.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11758872&whse=BC&Ne=5000001+4000000&eCat=BC |84&N=4047237 4294967022&Mo=11&No=5&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&topnav=

I think I will probably rather stick with the 3rd gen I7 since I tend to keep my PC quite a while (my current machine I built in 2003), but I appreciate the info on the 8300.

My plan is to buy the 8500 and try out the included video card and see if I am happy with the performance. If so I can wait and upgrade in the future.

Click to expand...

That HD 7570 card isn't a bad performer (it's faster than the entry level cards you sometimes see in boxes like an HD 6450, or Nvidia GT 620). It scores a 999 on the Passmark Series tests:

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/video_lookup.php?gpu=Radeon+HD+7570

Rick8800 said:

...Probably could use an eSATA connect external drive to do the same thing but I like the convenience of the cartridge-mounted SATA drive.

Click to expand...

From what I can tell of it's specs, the XPS 8500 doesn't have eSATA, unless they just haven't updated the specs correctly yet, even though the older XPS 8300 did.

The XPS 8500 does have USB 3.0 standard though; and more external docking stations and enclosures using USB 3.0 are showing up all the time.

An eSATA card wouldn't cost much though. For example, this one is probably a good bet using a Silicon Image 3132 Chipset for $12.74, and it gets good customer reviews at monoprice.com (and they're a reputable vendor). That chipset supports port multiplier functions, too (something some multi-bay drive Enclosures need to work properly than many eSATA ports built into machines don't give you), and you can get updated drivers for it on SI's web site (although customer feedback says the drivers on the CD work fine with Win 7, too).

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10407&cs_id=1040702&p_id=3581&seq=1&format=2

Personally, I just use a BlacX docking station for backup drives (where you plug a drive into the top of it). But, you'll find lots brands/models of docking stations and enclosures around anymore using either eSATA or USB 3.0 for faster transfer speeds compared to USB 2.0.

USB 3.0 docking stations start out at around $25 now. You'll see some of them if you scroll through the pags here:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100008040+600006293&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=92&description=&hisInDesc=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&AdvancedSearch=1&srchInDesc=&Page=2

Heck, you can buy a 4 bay USB 3.0 attached enclosure for around $129 now. Here's one example supporting both eSATA and USB 3.0:

http://www.amazon.com/ProBox-Drive-Enclosure-3-5-inch-drive/dp/B003X26VV4/ref=pd_sim_e_1

But, I don't think you'd have any problems using the Optical bay the way you want to.
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JimC

Thanks Jim, I wasn't aware of the BlacX enclosure line. A USB 3.0 version might be a good replacement for my internally mounted rack.
Always new stuff to consider...
Rick
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Nikon Dee 300, Dee-Seventy 's' ,Nikon SB-Eight Hundred Flash

There are a lot of those types out there now from a variety of manufacturers.

They're commonly referred to as Docking Stations (where you plug a drive into the slot on top).

Note that most of them only support up to 2TB Drives (although that may just be because they've never tested some of them with larger drives, too).

So, if going that route, it may be better to look for one that handles 3TB Drives in their specs. Some newer ones do support 3TB drives now.

The easiest way to find that type of enclosure is to probably narrow your search using newegg's advanced features under External Enclosures and select USB 3.0 as the External Interface type. The, just search within those listings for "Docking Station" like I did in this search, since that's how you normally see that type referred to:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007705%20600006293&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&SrchInDesc=docking%20station&Page=1&PageSize=20

But, that search may miss some that don't have Docking Station in their name (which is a more common way to refer to them).

On the downside, I have seen others mention SATA connector failures on drives when using drive enclosures that let you plug in drives directly, versus a tray type design with a separate connector on on the outside, as some (but not all) trays work.

But, I haven't had any issues with the SATA connectors on any drives I use for backups with a docking station. I am very careful with how I plug them in and remove them, though (using the release button on a docking station that starts pushing the drive back up, while gently pulling on it at the same time)

Of course, some of them are so cheap now, you could probably just buy one for each backup drive and leave the drives plugged into one.

BTW, I think driver issues are more likely the cause of many problems you see reported with USB 3.0 type docking stations and enclosures. So, I'd just make sure you're using the latest driver for your USB 3.0 chipset to help solve any issues.
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JimC

Correct, no eSATA on the XPS 850. Here's the complete owner's manual which contains all the specs:

http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/xps8500/en/om/om_en.pdf

Fred

Thanks Fred,

Looks like they assume the USB 3.0 ports are a suitable replacement, which they probably are. There is also an mSATA connection inside for a SSD.

Interesting box price-wise right now. Can't build one for a similar price, at least right now.
Appears to have enough expandability, though limited, to suit my needs.

I wonder if they include a Win7 OS disk with the product? I would probably buy it without an SSD but would like to be able to reinstall Windows on an SSD I add later.

Rick
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Nikon Dee 300, Dee-Seventy 's' ,Nikon SB-Eight Hundred Flash

Rick8800 said:

I wonder if they include a Win7 OS disk with the product? I would probably buy it without an SSD but would like to be able to reinstall Windows on an SSD I add later.

Click to expand...

Every Dell machine I've ever bought has come with them. But, I remember seeing the OS disk as an extra charge ($15 if memory serves) in the XPS 8300 configurators.

When browsing through the refurbished listings at Dell Outlet now, some of them have a DVD shown in their listings if you click on one to get more detailed info about it, and some don't show they include the Win 7 DVD (reflecting that being an optional choice when the machine was original purchased, since the refurbs are usually sold the same way they were originally ordered with the same options the original buyer selected).

For example, looking at the listings pages for them, you can't really tell

http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/Online/InventorySearch.aspx?c=us&cs=22&l=en&s=dfh&brandid=2202&fid=3628

But, if you click on a specific listing to get more information about it, you'll see it showing a DVD if it's included.

For example, note the machine with a GTX 560 in it for $1069 on the top of this screen capture:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4536228/outlet_gtx560.jpeg

If click on it that listing, a page with more detail shows it's got a 64 Bit Windows 7 Ultimate Operating System DVD included, along with a Wireless N card that you don't see browsing through the listings pages.

Some of the listings show a DVD, some don't, as it was apparently a $15 option wih the XPS 8300.

But, I don't see that option with the current XPS 8500 configurators. So, they may have changed how they work that on the new models. So, you may need to create them from an for that purpose or something after you get the machine anymore. Or, just use a DVD from somewhere else and plug in the license key from the sticker on the machine if you need to reinstall the OS from a non Dell DVD.

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JimC

Thanks Jim,

Strange how some have and some don't - seems like should be a requirement to provide, but I guess they can save 50 cents not providing a DVD

I have been doing a little more research and I think I may wait a while longer before jumping on the SSD bandwagon. Seems like a lot of people are having problems.

I would rather wait for my system to boot off a HDD than have several BSOD per day from the SSD.

Rick
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Nikon Dee 300, Dee-Seventy 's' ,Nikon SB-Eight Hundred Flash

If I were upgrading an OEM computer and adding more power draw, the power supply is the FIRST thing I would replace.

Dell does pretty well matching their PSU's to the power requirements of their systems, but the more stuff you add to it the closer you push it to operate near its limit - not good for the long term.

A good corsair or antec 500 watt can usually be found for around 60 bucks.
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picasaweb.google.com/BBGunWB

Yep, that is a concern.

I know some of the Dell boxes have non-standard PS mounting holes and cutouts. I wonder if the XPS 8500 can take a non-proprietary power supply?

Rick
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Nikon Dee 300, Dee-Seventy 's' ,Nikon SB-Eight Hundred Flash

Rick8800 said:

Yep, that is a concern.

I know some of the Dell boxes have non-standard PS mounting holes and cutouts. I wonder if the XPS 8500 can take a non-proprietary power supply?

Click to expand...

AFAIK, all of the Dell Minitowers use standard ATX Power Supplies. I upgraded one in a little Inspiron 530 with a Core 2 Quad (Q6600) it a while back, and just checked customer reviews of PSUs at newegg.com to make sure it would fit into the case OK (as some are a "tight" fit), finding one that others said worked in it.

For example, searching for the XPS 8300 in the Customer Review Section for Power Supplies at newegg.com yielded 3 results of users that bought PSUs for the XPS 8300 (which is the same case size as the XPS 8500).

http://www.newegg.com/FeedBack/CustratingAllReview.aspx?DEPA=0&N=40000058&Order=0&Pagesize=&Page=1&Keywords=XPS+8300

But, it's my understanding that the 460 Watt PSU in the Dell XPS 8500 has what you'd need for most video cards anyway, with dual 6 pin connectors, and Dell saying they will handle video cards drawing up to 225 Watts (which means pretty high end cards would work in one).

Dell sold the XPS 8300 with cards like the Nvidia GTX 560 (and I've seen some sold with the 560Ti when looking at how refurbs were equipped, but I think they used an OEM version), Radeon HD 5870 and 6870, and I've seen previews of the XPS 8500 at a review site where they shipped it with the newer Radeon HD 7870.

I'd just make sure the video card you buy will physically fit into the case (as some are longer than others), and I'd probably stick to one with a max power draw of around 175 Watts to stay on the safe side (even though Dell claims the PSU in the XPS 8500 will handle video cards pulling up to 225 Watts).. If you look at card specs on AMD and Nvidia web sites, you'll usually see max power draw listed in a card's specs.

Looking through some of the card reviews, I've seen users mentioning getting cards to fit into the XPS 8300 up to around 11 inches in length, although they had to move the PSU and hard drives out of the way temporarily first, they still got them to fit in.

So, if you wanted a real "screamer" of a card, I'd look at the new Nvidia GTX 670, as it draws less power compared to the older 570, and most should be under 10 inches in length, too. See specs for it here (max power draw of 175 Watts):

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-670/specifications

It was just recently announced, and appears to be almost as fast as the new GTX 680. I just don't see where you'd need anything faster, even for gaming. It's a hot seller, and although newegg.com had some in stock when they were announced, they're all sold out now. LOL

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709%20600315498%20600311820&IsNodeId=1&name=GeForce%20GTX%20670

But, I don't see where you'd need a card anywhere near that fast for most anything you'd need to do. Personally, I just could not see myself spending approx. $400 on a video card for any reason. But, to each, their own. ;-)

IOW, if I really needed something faster than the cards Dell offers and wanted Nvidia instead of AMD, I'd probably stick with something like an Nvidia GTX 560SE (a little better performance compared to the stock GTX 560 cards you find, yet power draw requirements are still lower than the GTX 560Ti), for around $129 (pretty good "bang for the buck" from my perspective). I'd probably go with this Zotac card (so that I'd have a DisplayPort, too.):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=nvidia+gtx+560SE&x=0&y=0

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JimC

Hi all - great discussion! Quick question - I have Dell XPS 8300 with an Intel Core Q6600 @ 2.4GHz. It's not bad, but can get a little slow when editing photos in Lightroom, etc... I know YMMV, but in general, how much of a performance increase can I expect if I upgrade to an XPS 8500 with an i7-3770?

And any thoughts on improving graphics performance with some of the cards mentioned here? I currently have an nVidia GeForce 8800 GT...

Thoughts/opinons much appreciated - I know the i7 in the XPS we're talking about in this thread would be faster than what I have - just trying to get a feel for how much faster & if it's worth replacing my 8300...

Thanks,

Barry
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Barry
http://barryk.smugmug.com/

I think you're mistaken. Perhaps you mean a Dell XPS 620 or 630 instead?

Dell never offered a Q6600 CPU with the XPS 8300. The XPS 8300 uses a Sandy Bridge platform and was offered with Core i5 2xxx and Core i7 2600 CPU models.

The Motherboards offered with the XPS 8300 do not support the older Core 2 Quad models like the Q6600, which is an older CPU design with a different pinout design than you'll find with the newer Sandy Bridge CPU models Dell sold the XPS 8300 with.

I'm guessing that you have an older XPS model if you have a Q6600 (like the Dell XPS 610, XPS 620 or XPS 630).

I'd double check the model of your PC for better responses, so that we can lookup the Power Supply models that Dell shipped with your Desktop.

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JimC

Jim Cockfield said:

I think you're mistaken. Perhaps you mean a Dell XPS 620 or 630 instead?

Dell never offered a Q6600 CPU with the XPS 8300. The XPS 8300 uses a Sandy Bridge platform and was offered with Core i5 2xxx and Core i7 2600 CPU models.

The Motherboards offered with the XPS 8300 do not support the older Core 2 Quad models like the Q6600, which is an older CPU design with a different pinout design than you'll find with the newer Sandy Bridge CPU models Dell sold the XPS 8300 with.

I'm guessing that you have an older XPS model if you have a Q6600 (like the Dell XPS 610, XPS 620 or XPS 630).

I'd double check the model of your PC for better responses, so that we can lookup the Power Supply models that Dell shipped with your Desktop.

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JimC
------

Click to expand...

Thanks Jim! My bad - all the talk of XPS 8xxx on my brain... You're correct, it's actually an XPS 420. That said, let me know what you think about my original questions...

Thanks,

Barry
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Barry
http://barryk.smugmug.com/

Thanks Jim,

I really appreciate the time you take to provide detailed answers along with useful links - very helpful for me....

I suspect the GTX 560 would be plenty powerful for my use. I only am leaning toward a Nvidia chip-based card since Adobe supposedly make better use of the CUDA processors vs the similar AMD/ATI cards.

I fully intend to try out the included AMD card in the 8500 before considering any changes.

I had previously been a Dell user but had several issues with their proprietary components and so for my last PC I decided to build it myself, since costwise it was pretty much a wash. Now it seems you have to pay a pretty high premium to build a similarly configured box yourself. I don't like buying new computers so I tend to use them a long time so I try to buy the current technology at that time, rather than saving a little bit with "last years" model, like the 8300.

I do like flexibility so knowing that there are 3rd party PSU that will fit the 8500 is great news. I was reading the Dell forum and it appears that other Dell models had a proprietary mounting arrangement for the PSU so that you had do metal work on the case (nibbling new holes for the power switch, etc) to make 3rd party PSU fit. Happy to hear that isn't the case with the XPS 8500. Probably will never replace it, but nice to know you can if needed.

Rick

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Nikon Dee 300, Dee-Seventy 's' ,Nikon SB-Eight Hundred Flash

BarryK said:

Thanks Jim! My bad - all the talk of XPS 8xxx on my brain... You're correct, it's actually an XPS 420. That said, let me know what you think about my original questions...

Click to expand...

Well.. from what I can find out from the specs, most of the XPS 420 boxes shipped with a 375 Watt PSU in them, with a 425 Watt in some.

IOW, that's probably cutting it a bit close for a video card upgrade using significantly faster cards than your existing one for cards that are not bus powered and need dual 6 pin connectors.

So, I'd assume you'd need to upgrade both the PSU and Video card to use a higher end card, and even if you did that, it may not help Lightroom performance much (if at all).

As for how much better a newer box would perform, this "retouch artists" benchmark using CS4 may help out (as I'd assume you'd see a similar performance increase using Lightroom, too).

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/25

Basically, the Q6600 took 25.6 Seconds to complete the benchmark, and a Core i7 3770K took 10.3 Seconds to complete the same benchmark. So, the newer CPU is more than twice as fast.

Note that the Core i7 2600 available in the XPS 8300 is almost as fast, completing the benchmark in only 11.3 seconds (still more than twice as fast as a Q6600). So, if you can find a good deal on the XPS 8300, that might give you more "bang for the buck". For example, here's a config I've seen linked to from some of the coupon sites for an XPS 8300 with 8GB of DDR3, Radeon HD 6670 video card (faster than most entry level video cards), 64 Bit Win 7, and a 1TB Drive for $699.

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=19&dgvcode=ss&c=US&l=EN&vw=list&oc=DXDAMS3&dgc=CJ&cid=7420&lid=566643

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JimC

BTW, I noticed a link to this config on some of the coupon sites.

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=19&dgvcode=ss&c=US&l=EN&vw=list&oc=dxdams1&dgc=CJ&cid=7420&lid=566643

It's the XPS 8300 with a Core i7 2600, 8GB of DDR3, Radeon HD 6870 (a very fast card), 1TB Drive, 64Bit Win 7 and a Dell u2412M (nice 24" IPS Display) for under $1K.

They offer the GTX 560Ti with 1.25GB of memory as an option, and you'd still be at under $1100 total if you went with it instead of the HD 6870 that ships by default.

It's my understanding that the Dell OEM version of the GTX 560Ti isn't clocked quite as fast as the standard GTX 560Ti cards to reduce power requirements (since that card normally draws around 220 watts running at max speed under load, which is cutting it a bit "close" for the PSU in that box). But, it should still be a very fast card.

Heck, the Dell U2412M IPS display by itself usually lists for more than $300, not even considering the video card cost (either the HD 6870 or the optional GTX 560Ti). So, it's like getting a very fast box for around $600 if you figure what the display and video cards available with that config are worth.

If you need a better display, that's a pretty nice deal from what I can see of it; and the Core i7 2600 tests almost as fast on image manipulation benchmarks compared to the newer Core i7 3770. For example, the Core i7 2600 took 11.3 seconds to complete the popular Retouch Artists Speed Test at anandtech, and the newer Core i7 3770K was only 1 second faster at 10.3 Seconds.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/25

IOW, there's really not a lot of difference between the Core i7 2600 and Core i7 3770 for most purposes (I doubt you'd notice the difference in real world use), and you can get more "bang for the buck" with the older XPS 8300 model if you look around for deals on some of the still available configs that Dell is offering while supplies of them last.

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JimC