D800 vs 5D3: dxomark and other real world considerations, my thoughts

There is a lot going on in dpreview forums regarding D800 and 5D3's dxomark score. 5Ds's dxomark score is considerably lower than D800 - but to be honest this dxomark score does not tell a lot about their performances, instead of looking at the score, one should look at the graphs of different parameters - DR, SNR, color depths etc.

From what I see, D800 has advantages in these areas:

1. Significantly higher DR at lower ISOs, you will see the difference if you shoot scenes with high DR, otherwise not.

2. Less chroma noise than 5D3. This difference should be visible only at higher ISOs (even though the difference exists at lower ISOs).

Other D800 advantages:
1. $500 cheaper

2. Brightness/ ISO compensation works with Auto ISO on manual mode [extremely useful for me].

3. Can detect faces in phase detection AF [extremely useful feature for me]. 5D3 can't do this. So 5D's auto area AF is much less useful for portraits

4. DR optimizer can work on both highlights and shadows at the same time. In case of Canon, if you turn on the HTP (highlight expansion), the ALO (shadow range optimizer) will not work and vice versa.
5. Can use crop sensor (DX) lenses.

6. Higher resolution - can be used to print larger or crop more at lower ISOs [not important for me].

5D3 advantages:
1. Better well rounded raw converter bundled with camera.
2. Smaller raws can be very useful for event shooters.
3. Better LCD.

Here's where the base ISO DR of D800 shows how good it is compared to the 5D3's, from Fred Miranda's tests:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=41285091
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Renato.
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(after Ed Murrow)

They have dozens of D800/5DIII threads over there, so you might be able to pick up some info. There isn't too much of that here.

I think the ability to push the shadows is a huge selling point

Dynamic range on digital cameras is still quite crappy when compared to your eye. If you are shooting buildings against a bright sky, or a backlit portrait, or any other contrasty situation - you need to choose which thing to underexpose or which thing to blow out. That's not brilliant.

Being able to expose for the sky, then lifting the buildings without any noise or deterioration in the image is a massive step forwards. And that's why the d800 wins for me.

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u007 said:

I think the ability to push the shadows is a huge selling point

Dynamic range on digital cameras is still quite crappy when compared to your eye. If you are shooting buildings against a bright sky, or a backlit portrait, or any other contrasty situation - you need to choose which thing to underexpose or which thing to blow out. That's not brilliant.

Being able to expose for the sky, then lifting the buildings without any noise or deterioration in the image is a massive step forwards. And that's why the d800 wins for me.

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Really good point. I think another place it would help is photographing people in bright sunlight. Fill flash is always an option, but I often wish I could pull up the shadows around the eyes a little more.

Actually I wrote the message to post on the Canon forum, but when I saw how big the advantage list of D800 became, I posted it here instead. Didn't want to be called a troll .

To others: I am not downplaying the advantage of having large dynamic range, just that not all scenes need this. For example, look at the studio samples of dpreview or IR.

BackInTheGame said:

They have dozens of D800/5DIII threads over there, so you might be able to pick up some info. There isn't too much of that here.

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There is some good info over there. A lot of bull as well, but you get that anywhere.

In terms of sensor pformance, Nikon has delivered a real monster, and that's really exciting. To me it seems clear that it's the DSLR with the potnetial to deliver the very best FF image quality possible at the moment, and I doubt seeing big improvements in sensor quality for a long time.

But at the same time I can't help feeling that the D800 has some pretty rough edges, which will make it harder to get that maximum image quality, and less enjoyable than I would have hoped.

The AF issue is not clear yet to me if this is an isolated or a common issue. The live view issue is very disappointing, the green tint in the LCD is annoying, and I still can't help being upset that the shooting and customs banks are so poorly implemented that I find them useless. I have the feeling our friends shooting CANON benefit in some sense from the lack of sensor improvements, because it forced CANON to really pay attention to the other qualities of the camera, and it seems very well rounded.

I can't see the light leak being a big issue, and to me it seems canon is dealing with it more openly and professionally than Nikon.

I am actually a little disappointed, I have been waiting for the perfect FF camera, and the D800 seemed to deliver, but now it seems as if Nikon still needs a generation to focus on fixing the open issues...

I have a D800 on pre-order but am wondering if a D700 would not be a wiser choice...

It's a little frustrating. Nikon could help with a more open communication about the issues being discussed here.

Surf

surf1 said:

The AF issue is not clear yet to me if this is an isolated or a common issue.

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At this point it seems that it's an issue which affected earlier batches of the camera. It's not present on all D800 and not reported on D800e's (so far), which have reached the market 1 month or so after the D800.

surf1 said:

The live view issue is very disappointing,

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Yes, that was my first reaction. But after having seen more videos on the subject I'm not so sure it's of any relevance for "real" subjects to manual focusing via liveview. But I still reserve judgment until I try it once I get the camera.

surf1 said:

the green tint in the LCD is annoying,

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I never use the back LCD to evaluate color. I use it for checking histograms and focus. So I don't really care.

surf1 said:

and I still can't help being upset that the shooting and customs banks are so poorly implemented that I find them useless.

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Can you elaborate? Which aspect of the implementation bothers you?

surf1 said:

I have the feeling our friends shooting CANON benefit in some sense from the lack of sensor improvements,

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There is more to sensor quality than MPs. The 5d3 sensor is a significant upgrade of the 5d2's (cleaner shadows, better high ISO). And the D800 also has many other improvements than sensor (2 axis level, histograms in liveview, improved 3d matrix and metering, usb3, etc etc)

surf1 said:

because it forced CANON to really pay attention to the other qualities of the camera,

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Disagree. What forced Canon to pay more attention to the other aspects of the camera is the Nikon D700. Canon knows that it losts a number of FF sales to Nikon with its 5d / 5d3 dSLRs having a consumer grade body while the D700 body is very close to the D3, i.e. a true pro grade body.

surf1 said:

and it seems very well rounded.

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Yes, but that's true as well of the D800

surf1 said:

I can't see the light leak being a big issue,

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No

surf1 said:

and to me it seems Canon is dealing with it more openly and professionally than Nikon

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Maybe they've learned from the 1dmk3 AF fiasco. At the time they threatened photography magazines that would stop buying advertisement in these if these magazines published anything about the 1dmk3 AF issues. And they acted on their threats. That didn't prevent the news to spread and in fact made it way worse: it was clear then that Canon was trying to hide something big.

surf1 said:

It's a little frustrating. Nikon could help with a more open communication about the issues being discussed here.

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Nikon is not very good at open communication when it comes to potential pitfalls with its cameras.

--
Thierry

u007 said:

Dynamic range on digital cameras is still quite crappy when compared to your eye.

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Same for film. And even with digital one has to deal with the even more limited dynamic range of output devices such as monitors and printers.

--
Thierry

Good post.

I have ordered a D800E but to be fair 5D3 also has better high ISO performance with jpeg although to me they seem oversharpened and overprocessed but still good, perhaps a better HDR routine (not sure about that) has the little multiple epxosure special effect which I would like, autofocus apart from face tracking seems overall better if more complex - I haven't read left side AF doesn't work in Canon,

supply is far better, perhaps better out of camera skin tones?, faster fps, better ergonmics/shape, prettier - the Nikon is a bit ugly, is more flexible with Nikon lenses and adapters.

All that aside the key is the fabulous 36mp sensor in the Nikon. There is no way around the fact that that sensor is currently the king of sensors in 35mm. And Nikon have exploited its strengths fabulously well.

Greg.

+1 except for considering another camera.

Greg.

I have been a Nikon user since the F2 and F3 with late switch to digital with now D-800 and D-700. Have not had time to use the D-800 in real life shooting yet - I am still in the "engagement/learning" phase but to me:

Not ugly at all
Build quality seems as good as my D-700
Location of controls better and easier than D-700 after I got used to them

Size of files, other than slower loading using Caedmon reade - not a big difference
Frames per minute - not a factor for me.
Resolution - awesome
Handling - excellent
Care to obtain great IQ same as always use good technique

I have good glass but can now justify and want some great primes. Especially a fast 85 mm, would love the 200 f 2 and 400 f 2.8. Those lens with the D-800 could set new levels of photo resolution and IQ. Great tools to enable great photos if ability is there.

Having a D-700 for several years and D-800 for less than a month if I could only keep one today - it would be a no brainer, the D-800 in a NY minute.

It does take a little effort to get used to it and slight different auto focus system and controls but the potential is there for me to advance.

In summary - great new camera and exciting camera to own and the challenge to use it to achieve camwra's potential is now in our hands.

Great time for photographers and a real value at US$3K.

The new Cannom MK III sounds like another awesome camera that seems to beat the D-800 in several key areas but reality is that which ever "system" you are used to ANC have good glass for then that is the camera for you.
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canon will come back....
just give them a few years to catch up
they just locked themselves into price points....

the real question is how long will you have to wait for a d800?