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A word of Legal caution...

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Just ask the doctors who are giving up practicing because of the huge mal-practice insurance rates. Obstetricians are really getting hit hard and are refusing to deliver babies in some cases, restricting their practice to gynecology.
 
Especially considering this isn't a forum for rants about retailers.

-dc
Robert Rinkewich said:
I posted this in response to another thread, but thought it was
important enough to repost here.

Just a word of caution...

About a year ago, I was following a different fourm. Nothing to do
with photography. I remember a very disturbing thread, and thought
I should share it here.

A particular user, and then followed by a group of users posted
about their bad experiences with a company. They basically did not
like the practices of a particular company. The owner of the said
company happened to be a "part time lawyer". The "law" was a hobby
to him, even though he never attended law school, he knew enough
about it to file a suit of defamation of character...etc..

He took each of these users to court, and used the forum records as
his evidence. In a nutshell, he said that their posts lead to a
loss in business for him, and a defamation of character since they
used his "Real name" in their forum complaints.

The bottom line is that he had a tough case to prove against the
users, freedom of speech, etc.. but really his motive was to cause
these users to defend themselves in court.

I lost track of the forum thread after a couple months, but the
last I heard they were trying to get other users of the forum to
dontate money for a legal fund for their defense. I also heard that
they were trying to settle with him, rather than go to court and
build up large legal fees.

I have no problem with people complaining about bad business
practices. In fact I appreciate the warnings. I just would watch
what I say, and keep it professional. I would also refrain from
mentioning people by their first and last names. In todays world
you are leaving yourself wide open for legal action.

My motto is to speak softly (especially when there are records),
and carry a big stick!
Click to expand...
 
Very unfortunately the US legal system, unlike say the UK's, is not a "looser pays" system. In the US system, the person sued almost always looses money. The US system seems (to me as a non-lawyer) is very biased in terms of lawyers being able to get fees for suing people. You have to pay potentially big money to defend yourself against even a baseless suit or risk loosing. When you "win" you pay your legal fees, the often the "best case" is that you are punished with legal fees.

You can really be at the mercy of someone that has little cost for them to sue you the way the "system works."

You can in theory sue back for filing a "frivolous suit" but sadly the standard for what is a fivolous suit is often very high. You basically have to prove that the suit was baseless and without any merit. All they may have to show is that they had a reason to believe that you were at fault and you may loose sueing back. Even if you can prove that, it it highly unlikely that you will ever recover the cost of the original suit plus the cost of sueing back for the frivolous suit, no less all the time and heart burn that it will cause you.

It ain't right, but that seems to be the system the lawyers that write the lawyers and pay the politicians (the "Trial Lawyers" are among the biggest contributors to the Democratic Party and I would guess they also support the Republican Party well too) like to have. If the US had a "looser pays" system the number of suites would drop like a rock.
jim clarke said:
Robert Rinkewich said:
I posted this in response to another thread, but thought it was
important enough to repost here.

Just a word of caution...

About a year ago, I was following a different fourm. Nothing to do
with photography. I remember a very disturbing thread, and thought
I should share it here.

A particular user, and then followed by a group of users posted
about their bad experiences with a company. They basically did not
like the practices of a particular company. The owner of the said
company happened to be a "part time lawyer". The "law" was a hobby
to him, even though he never attended law school, he knew enough
about it to file a suit of defamation of character...etc..

He took each of these users to court, and used the forum records as
his evidence. In a nutshell, he said that their posts lead to a
loss in business for him, and a defamation of character since they
used his "Real name" in their forum complaints.

The bottom line is that he had a tough case to prove against the
users, freedom of speech, etc.. but really his motive was to cause
these users to defend themselves in court.

I lost track of the forum thread after a couple months, but the
last I heard they were trying to get other users of the forum to
dontate money for a legal fund for their defense. I also heard that
they were trying to settle with him, rather than go to court and
build up large legal fees.

I have no problem with people complaining about bad business
practices. In fact I appreciate the warnings. I just would watch
what I say, and keep it professional. I would also refrain from
mentioning people by their first and last names. In todays world
you are leaving yourself wide open for legal action.

My motto is to speak softly (especially when there are records),
and carry a big stick!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Yes very good point.

On the other hand, I have no problem with someone reporting a problem with a company. Just dont lose your cool, and state the facts. If you are seen as trying to hurt someones business, then you could have some problems.

I havent been a member of this forum for a long time. But when I started seeing posts like "hey I hope this thread costs them $1000's of dollars in business" I just had to sit back and say wait a minute, you might be opening up a can of worms that you are not willing to close at your expense.

Also keep in mind that if someone rants on a forum about a particular company, the forum operator can also get dragged in for letting it happen and continue. I'd hate to see this forum get censored or affected in some way because a few people lost their cool about a transaction.

I'm not saying its right, but why leave your self open to it.
Danny Cardenas said:
-dc
Robert Rinkewich said:
I posted this in response to another thread, but thought it was
important enough to repost here.

Just a word of caution...

About a year ago, I was following a different fourm. Nothing to do
with photography. I remember a very disturbing thread, and thought
I should share it here.

A particular user, and then followed by a group of users posted
about their bad experiences with a company. They basically did not
like the practices of a particular company. The owner of the said
company happened to be a "part time lawyer". The "law" was a hobby
to him, even though he never attended law school, he knew enough
about it to file a suit of defamation of character...etc..

He took each of these users to court, and used the forum records as
his evidence. In a nutshell, he said that their posts lead to a
loss in business for him, and a defamation of character since they
used his "Real name" in their forum complaints.

The bottom line is that he had a tough case to prove against the
users, freedom of speech, etc.. but really his motive was to cause
these users to defend themselves in court.

I lost track of the forum thread after a couple months, but the
last I heard they were trying to get other users of the forum to
dontate money for a legal fund for their defense. I also heard that
they were trying to settle with him, rather than go to court and
build up large legal fees.

I have no problem with people complaining about bad business
practices. In fact I appreciate the warnings. I just would watch
what I say, and keep it professional. I would also refrain from
mentioning people by their first and last names. In todays world
you are leaving yourself wide open for legal action.

My motto is to speak softly (especially when there are records),
and carry a big stick!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I'm sorry, but after seeing this 1,000 times a day in various forums, I've just snapped. The word is "loser," not "looser." Please don't sue me.
dimage said:
Very unfortunately the US legal system, unlike say the UK's, is not
a "looser pays" system. In the US system, the person sued almost
always looses money.
Click to expand...
 
hyslopc said:
The US badly needs tort reform
Click to expand...
Sure we do need reform, only in the US can sue
and win because you:

a. Buy a hot cup of coffee and put it between you legs

b. Then drive a car.

c. Are just tooooooooo stupid to believe it will not spill in you lap.

We need tort reform to protect us from those people who are just plain
stupid.

And do not get me started about the lawsuit against McDonalds because
of some kids decided to eat hamburger every day and now have health
problems. McDonalds should sue the parents for being bad parents.

I even heard about a lawsuit concenring a women who tried to dry
her cat in a Microwave oven.

Bill
 
DPReview in located in London UK. When Phil does a camera
review he does take many photos of London, like Tower Bridge.

I do not know the answers to this question so I am throwing this one out

Are my replies govern by UK libel law because DP review is located there

or US law where I live? If a person is visiting another country types a message to this forum does he have to follow libel laws where it was
typed or is it where it is being read/save? Everyone who is reading this is
reading it from a server located in the U.K. but that is not where I type
the message from.

Bill
 
We don't need tort reform. We just need judges (and juries) who'll use some common sense.

If I were a judge, and somebody brought that lawsuit before me (woman spills coffee on herself), or the lawsuit where the fat kids wanted to sue McDonalds, the lawyer who brought the case would be summarily thrown in jail for contempt for 90 days and force-fed McDonalds every meal.

The woman would lose her driver's license for 90 days, and the kids would have to go on a strict vegetarian diet for 90 days.

So, who needs tort reform?

Next case, please.
William C said:
Member said:
The US badly needs tort reform
Click to expand...
Sure we do need reform, only in the US can sue
and win because you:

a. Buy a hot cup of coffee and put it between you legs

b. Then drive a car.

c. Are just tooooooooo stupid to believe it will not spill in you lap.

We need tort reform to protect us from those people who are just plain
stupid.

And do not get me started about the lawsuit against McDonalds because
of some kids decided to eat hamburger every day and now have health
problems. McDonalds should sue the parents for being bad parents.

I even heard about a lawsuit concenring a women who tried to dry
her cat in a Microwave oven.
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
DavidP #28649 said:
We don't need tort reform. We just need judges (and juries)
who'll use some common sense.
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree more.
DavidP #28649 said:
DavidP #28649 said:
Sure we do need reform, only in the US can sue
and win because you:
a. Buy a hot cup of coffee and put it between you legs [...]
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Did you know that woman had third degree burns on her unmentionables, and needed skin grafts all along her thighs? Petes, Starbucks, Noahs, and all the rest don't make their coffee anywhere near that hot -- enough to seriously injure someone. Of course, it takes two to tango, and most of us would be smart enough to not put a hot cup of joe between our legs nine times out of ten ... but if the coffee had been served at a reasonable tempature, the woman would have been in some pain, but not been injured. McDonnalds had recieved more than a hundred complaints that their coffee was too hot, and liable to badly hurt someone.

How many people knew any of this? I think it's been a little over-simplified...

Yeah, it's easy to complain about money-grubbing ambulance-chasers. A lot of lawyers do things professionally that are very bad for our society. On the other hand, lawsuits ( not lawyers ) are the only means individuals have to protect their rights. You can't throw Ford in jail over the Pinto, but you can sue them. Funny how criminal law really only applies to individuals, and people are clamoring for civil law not to apply to corporations, either.

I think banishing lawyers from tort cases would be much better than getting rid of the tort system.
 
Long before that lawsuit hit the news, I stopped ordering coffee or
tea at McD's. The water for the tea was always just a few degrees
below boiling, and by the time it cooled down to the point where I
could drink it I had already eaten the rest of my breakfast.

As far as I'm concerned that suit was not over-the-top at all.
 
And there lies the real strength of the American system - competition. McDonald's served their beverages too hot, so you started eating somewhere else. That's a part of America that really works.
--
D60, 16-35/2.8L, 28-135 IS, 550EX
 
Forrest41926 said:
... but if the coffee had been served at a reasonable temperature,
Click to expand...
How do you make a cup of tea? With hot boiling water and it can
produced third degree burns. Wat is reasonable temp if it is not boiling
hot? When I make a pot of coffee or tea it is with boiling water. Can I
get water at a higher temperate without it boiling away?
Forrest41926 said:
McDonnalds had recieved more than a hundred complaints that their
coffee was too hot, and liable to badly hurt someone.
Click to expand...
I guess since they get complaints about selling junk food, they
can now get sue for the health problems of people eating their junk
food. But McDonalds is lucky they cannot get sue by someone
who will put a Big Mac between their legs and get third degree
burns while driving a car.
Forrest41926 said:
You can't throw Ford in jail over the Pinto, but you can sue them.
Click to expand...
You demand the government to arrest and throw in jail those CEOs
of the companies who products cause death and injury. If a
car mechanic knowing installs on a car defect breaks to make
a few extra bucks, that car mechanic will be arrested and thrown in jail.

Frankly what we need in this country more corporation to be treated
like the average person when average person breaks the law.
People should be in jail for the Pinto.

Bill
 
Member said:
Member said:
... but if the coffee had been served at a reasonable temperature,
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Member said:
How do you make a cup of tea? With hot boiling water and it can
produced third degree burns. Wat is reasonable temp if it is not
boiling
hot? When I make a pot of coffee or tea it is with boiling water.
Can I
get water at a higher temperate without it boiling away?
Click to expand...
I think people would want the coffee colder, not hotter, to prevent burns. You could let it sit ten minutes longer to cool. Or you could do what I do, and buy iced coffee. Tastes much better!
Member said:
Member said:
McDonnalds had recieved more than a hundred complaints that their
coffee was too hot, and liable to badly hurt someone.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Member said:
I guess since they get complaints about selling junk food, they
can now get sue for the health problems of people eating their junk
food. But McDonalds is lucky they cannot get sue by someone
who will put a Big Mac between their legs and get third degree
burns while driving a car.
Click to expand...
You don't see a difference between selling junk-food that people know is bad for them, and selling too-hot beverages that people would naturally assume are at a more normal ( ie look at all the competition ) tempature and actually get seriously injured? Maybe people could sue over junk food if McDonnalds mislead the public about nutrition content.
Member said:
Frankly what we need in this country more corporation to be treated
like the average person when average person breaks the law.
People should be in jail for the Pinto.
Click to expand...
I absolutely agree. And I don't think restricting people's right to sue -- the only way we can assert our rights -- is the direction we need to move in to make this happen. Having mass-media that's owned by the corporations it covers doesn't help. Getting rid of laywers in tort cases might not be such a bad idea.
 
if I remember correctly, the actual servers are in the US (because the majority of the users are over there).

I believe Phil has mentioned this in a thread after some big site troubles some time ago.
William C said:
DPReview in located in London UK. When Phil does a camera
review he does take many photos of London, like Tower Bridge.
typed or is it where it is being read/save? Everyone who is reading
this is
reading it from a server located in the U.K. but that is not where
I type
the message from.
Click to expand...
Marcel D.
The Netherlands
GC-S5 - 990 - G2 - D60 ( BG-ED3 - 28-135 - 70-200F4 - 550EX )
http://www.fotoexpo.tk
 
Robert I think Phil has a disclaimer but I do not know if that is enough to protect him, after all it can always be challenged in court. As with anything else, when you post you take your chances. I do not think anyone has anything to fear as long as they are factual and were personally involved. Again we can get sued for anything, but whether its valid or not is another issue. I think someone else hit the nail on the head, we need reform against stupidity.

Jason
Robert Rinkewich said:
On the other hand, I have no problem with someone reporting a
problem with a company. Just dont lose your cool, and state the
facts. If you are seen as trying to hurt someones business, then
you could have some problems.

I havent been a member of this forum for a long time. But when I
started seeing posts like "hey I hope this thread costs them
$1000's of dollars in business" I just had to sit back and say
wait a minute, you might be opening up a can of worms that you are
not willing to close at your expense.

Also keep in mind that if someone rants on a forum about a
particular company, the forum operator can also get dragged in for
letting it happen and continue. I'd hate to see this forum get
censored or affected in some way because a few people lost their
cool about a transaction.

I'm not saying its right, but why leave your self open to it.
Danny Cardenas said:
-dc
Robert Rinkewich said:
I posted this in response to another thread, but thought it was
important enough to repost here.

Just a word of caution...

About a year ago, I was following a different fourm. Nothing to do
with photography. I remember a very disturbing thread, and thought
I should share it here.

A particular user, and then followed by a group of users posted
about their bad experiences with a company. They basically did not
like the practices of a particular company. The owner of the said
company happened to be a "part time lawyer". The "law" was a hobby
to him, even though he never attended law school, he knew enough
about it to file a suit of defamation of character...etc..

He took each of these users to court, and used the forum records as
his evidence. In a nutshell, he said that their posts lead to a
loss in business for him, and a defamation of character since they
used his "Real name" in their forum complaints.

The bottom line is that he had a tough case to prove against the
users, freedom of speech, etc.. but really his motive was to cause
these users to defend themselves in court.

I lost track of the forum thread after a couple months, but the
last I heard they were trying to get other users of the forum to
dontate money for a legal fund for their defense. I also heard that
they were trying to settle with him, rather than go to court and
build up large legal fees.

I have no problem with people complaining about bad business
practices. In fact I appreciate the warnings. I just would watch
what I say, and keep it professional. I would also refrain from
mentioning people by their first and last names. In todays world
you are leaving yourself wide open for legal action.

My motto is to speak softly (especially when there are records),
and carry a big stick!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Jason Stoller [email protected]

We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their new products!
 
Willian how do you know that you are not reading from a Mirror site located in NY or NJ. The answer is you really do not. Isn't the question really about how the law applies to the Internet and whose law applies to the internet? Do we really want the internet tied up deeply in the legal system where Big Brother decides what we can read and not read, type and not type? Think about it! Since Phil is the site operator and owner, we are restricted to what he deems is appropriate whether you or I like it or not. Let me repeat what another told me once, The internet is like TV, If you do not happen to like what is on, then change the channel, go take pictures, or turn it off.

Jason
William C said:
DPReview in located in London UK. When Phil does a camera
review he does take many photos of London, like Tower Bridge.

I do not know the answers to this question so I am throwing this
one out

Are my replies govern by UK libel law because DP review is located
there
or US law where I live? If a person is visiting another country
types a message to this forum does he have to follow libel laws
where it was
typed or is it where it is being read/save? Everyone who is reading
this is
reading it from a server located in the U.K. but that is not where
I type
the message from.

Bill
Click to expand...
--
Jason Stoller [email protected]

We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their new products!
 
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