Panasonic: APS-C lifespan is limited BS in my opinion

Yes, this seems pretty desperate on Panasonic's part. Very ill-considered, in-fact. Now... it's pretty obvious that their intent was a marketing shot across the bow against the recent challenge by Sony/Samsung in the mirrorless market... but the problem is that they chose the wrong target. You can say a lot of things about Sony, but the APS-C standard is unassailable for one simple reason: Canikon. That is, their established reputations as makers of "serious" cameras in the general consciousness, their status as fierce rivals, and their shared dedication to APS-C .

Panasonic can put their claims up against Sony, and consumers who aren't enthusiasts/experts might not know any better either way... but to put their claims against Sony, Canon and Nikon? Brows will arch because it's such an audacious claim.

It's like, say, Adobe coming to make the claim that neither Microsoft nor Apple are designing operating systems right.

People who are intrigued enough by the claim to delve into detail might not come out on Panny's side... because as much as we see it as a plainly BS claim, it is at the very least a controversial one with lots of debate-able geektastic nuance. And those that can't be bothered? They're more likely to dismiss Panny's claim outright on the sheer reputation of Canikon alone.

The true trend of the market (as I see it) is ever-bigger camera sensors for one reason: the ever-improving smart-phone cam, which will just continue to get better and more versatile as the smartphone makers engage in mortal combat. I mean, Apple is already going after optics, and Nokia (heh) went after the sensor. People who want for more will naturally want for the things that they discover that even awesome smartphone cams can't do: DOF control and low-light sensitivity. And both of those point in the same direction.
 
DtEW wrote:
...
The true trend of the market (as I see it) is ever-bigger camera sensors for one reason: the ever-improving smart-phone cam, which will just continue to get better and more versatile as the smartphone makers engage in mortal combat. I mean, Apple is already going after optics, and Nokia (heh) went after the sensor. People who want for more will naturally want for the things that they discover that even awesome smartphone cams can't do: DOF control and low-light sensitivity. And both of those point in the same direction.
As much as I like the camera in my iPhone 4s, it's not quite like having a good digital camera. However, it's very good for what it is, and photos look pretty good. The problem is that most people are going to shrug and say that their phones are good enough and stop buying the low-end consumer cameras. The iPhone sensor may not be as obnoxiously dense as the new Nokia one, but 8MP is nothing to sneeze at. It's more than adequate.
--
Gary W.
 
"I think what's missing at the moment is edge to edge sharpness. If you look at some of the images from an APS-C sized sensor, you can see quite clearly the edge to edge sharpness is just not as good as from Micro Four Thirds." Panasonic now has a range of cameras that comprises four different system
in my experience. Edge to edge performance on an APS-C or larger sensor will struggle to match a decent m4/3's lens. The lenses and sensor have been designed to be optimal in terms of size and performance, this is a legacy from full 4/3's development and is an undeniable strength of the system.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/
 
Agreed. A smaller sensor has a larger DOF.

Per Panny's reasoning, there would be no need for MFT either. The V1 runs circles around the MFT, yet is overshadowed by any P&S.
. . . but you better take all pictures at ISO 100.

Professionals use FF - DOF is but one aspect of a sensor. In all other aspects a larger sensor has more benefits.
Bigger is better, but at some point, you reach a spot where it's good enough. For me, APS-C hits that point. I'm sure I could do with the MFT size, but I don't have to....
Also, MFT is the most 'squarish' format, which hash benefit in lens design, but often means that you crop resolution away.
For 4x6, but there's less cropping for typical large framing like 8x10 and 11x14. It seems to me a good design to maximize what they have.
Will APS-C replace FF? Doubtfull.
Will MFT replace APS-C? Even more doubtfull.
...
Of course, they need a justification for m43.
If they can't justify it with having a smaller system, then I don't know what the point of MFT is.
"I think what's missing at the moment is edge to edge sharpness. If you look at some of the images from an APS-C sized sensor, you can see quite clearly the edge to edge sharpness is just not as good as from Micro Four Thirds."

True, but also a bigger size sensor , at the same technology step will always have a better low light performance.
....

I think this has been my thought for a while. All else being equal, bigger is better... better noise, DR, DOF... But FF is too expensive and larger, and I get sufficient DOF with APS-C.

I think most people would be fine with MFT, though. It is hard to see the difference.

--
Gary W.
 
the whole article avoids DOF control, minimal with M4/3s, which is crucial to the serious photographer
DOF control is not minimal with m4/3's, that's total hogwash I'm afraid, how many examples would you like to see?
also, how can a sensor size be obsolete !!!! an APS-C sensor with the same technology as a M4/3s sensor will always be better for noise and DR. Oh, and did I mention DOF control!
Here you go, about 15 feet from my wife, 50mm focal length, no flash used and the aperture was only F2, is that enough separation for you? That's what a decent lens on the cheapest m4/3's camera can do.


Lastly the M4/3s sensor being sharper then APS-C is BS. Unless he is talking about more DOF. In which case a PS is sharper
I think they mean across the frame sharpness.
I think the Nex7 can be sharp foreground and background quite easily, and this is f7.1:
A point and shoot can do that even easier.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/
 
The reverse is probably true as NEX lens selection improve
Which it isn't showing any real sign of doing.
Unfortunately I think Sony are hemorrhaging potential customers to m4/3's because of the lens line up. The m4/3's lens line-up is increasing at a rapid rate while Sony's is looking pretty paltry in comparison. I see value in both systems and own both so I'm pretty objective on this one. If I was to put my money on one surviving it wouldn't be Sony at this moment in time.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/
 
The same argument (DoF Control) when people are moving from medium format to 135
what system are you using now? 135!

the same will happen to 135 to APS-C / mFT
but we still don't know which one is going to win

my guess is they will both exist for long time but more people will be getting mFT because the overall size is better and most people don't need super shallow DoF
and those who want shallow DoF, they would go FF instead
 
yes, FF is always better

which is why a FF sensor in a Nex7/x-pro1 size camera would sell like hot cakes (and does, in its own small way for the M9)

my point is that APS-C is superior to M4/3s in every metric. Easy of overall sharpness is a bogey as a PS camera is better
The same argument (DoF Control) when people are moving from medium format to 135
what system are you using now? 135!

the same will happen to 135 to APS-C / mFT
but we still don't know which one is going to win

my guess is they will both exist for long time but more people will be getting mFT because the overall size is better and most people don't need super shallow DoF
and those who want shallow DoF, they would go FF instead
 
the whole article avoids DOF control, minimal with M4/3s, which is crucial to the serious photographer
DOF control is not minimal with m4/3's, that's total hogwash I'm afraid, how many examples would you like to see?
DOF is available with M4/3s, of course. I shot a 25mm f1.4 DG on the GX1 and know what can be achieved.
But better separation is available from APS-C, which is 50% larger:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm
also, how can a sensor size be obsolete !!!! an APS-C sensor with the same technology as a M4/3s sensor will always be better for noise and DR. Oh, and did I mention DOF control!
Here you go, about 15 feet from my wife, 50mm focal length, no flash used and the aperture was only F2, is that enough separation for you? That's what a decent lens on the cheapest m4/3's camera can do.
nice picture, refer you to my previous comment
Lastly the M4/3s sensor being sharper then APS-C is BS. Unless he is talking about more DOF. In which case a PS is sharper
I think they mean across the frame sharpness.
I think the Nex7 can be sharp foreground and background quite easily, and this is f7.1:
A point and shoot can do that even easier.
which was my point. Saying that a smaller sensor means easier full frame sharpness is rubbish as a PS camera will alway trump anything else (not what you said, its what the Panny rep. said).

there is nothing wrong with M4/3s
the GX1, for example, is a lovely camera

But when it comes to DOF, DR and detail a APS-C camera is better.
This is just not debatable.
 
yes, FF is always better

which is why a FF sensor in a Nex7/x-pro1 size camera would sell like hot cakes (and does, in its own small way for the M9)

my point is that APS-C is superior to M4/3s in every metric. Easy of overall sharpness is a bogey as a PS camera is better
Unfortunately that isn't actually true though is it. If it was then nobody would buy anything else would they? It's also not about "better" it's about "good enough", otherwise nobody would shoot with anything less than a large format camera would they.

There is no ideal format, every one has compromises but some are less compromised than others. Neither APS-C nor FF make for small camera's and lenses, this is where m4/3's steals the show, small bodies and smaller lenses. If you don't get that go and handle the EPM-1 and stick one of the Panasonic Pancakes on it or put the m.zuiko 14-150mm on it and compare it to a NEX and the 18-200mm, there's your answer.
The same argument (DoF Control) when people are moving from medium format to 135
what system are you using now? 135!

the same will happen to 135 to APS-C / mFT
but we still don't know which one is going to win

my guess is they will both exist for long time but more people will be getting mFT because the overall size is better and most people don't need super shallow DoF
and those who want shallow DoF, they would go FF instead
--
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/
 
You are under the assumption that lenses on sucha FF NEX camera are no bigger than current e mount/NEX lenses
Sony might release NEX 9 with hybrid alpha and E mount
That probably makes more sense than current APSC NEX
 
This thing is totaly marketing BS. I think digital makes it possible to have different systems in the market. It is totaly different as it was in the film days. You had to have a film maker that suported your film size to create a new camera.

I think that there is room in the market for both the m43 and the APS cameras/sensors.

It is totaly BS that it is impossible to create small APS lenses (look at samsung, look at Pentax, look at the 16mm E-mount lens, all small.
Sony should (and will) make more small lenses, like the mentioned brands...
 
the whole article avoids DOF control, minimal with M4/3s, which is crucial to the serious photographer
DOF control is not minimal with m4/3's, that's total hogwash I'm afraid, how many examples would you like to see?
DOF is available with M4/3s, of course. I shot a 25mm f1.4 DG on the GX1 and know what can be achieved.
But better separation is available from APS-C, which is 50% larger:
Yes by less than 1 stop usually, not a huge amount and easily overcome if you know what you are doing.
Exactly, and as he says, if you really want to agonise then go and drag a full frame camera around and be done with it. That's exactly what mirrorless cameras are saving us from :)
also, how can a sensor size be obsolete !!!! an APS-C sensor with the same technology as a M4/3s sensor will always be better for noise and DR. Oh, and did I mention DOF control!
Here you go, about 15 feet from my wife, 50mm focal length, no flash used and the aperture was only F2, is that enough separation for you? That's what a decent lens on the cheapest m4/3's camera can do.
nice picture, refer you to my previous comment
Lastly the M4/3s sensor being sharper then APS-C is BS. Unless he is talking about more DOF. In which case a PS is sharper
I think they mean across the frame sharpness.
I think the Nex7 can be sharp foreground and background quite easily, and this is f7.1:
A point and shoot can do that even easier.
which was my point. Saying that a smaller sensor means easier full frame sharpness is rubbish as a PS camera will alway trump anything else (not what you said, its what the Panny rep. said).

there is nothing wrong with M4/3s
the GX1, for example, is a lovely camera

But when it comes to DOF, DR and detail a APS-C camera is better.
This is just not debatable.
No, if all things were equal but they're not, what about detail on the edges for instance? having a 24mp sensor isn't great if you are binning resolution on the edges and often you will end up cropping a 3:2 ratio image anyway. No matter, we can agree to disagree, as I said, it's about what is "good enough", not what is "best". For a lot of people m4/3's is proving to be more than "good enough".
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/
 
This thing is totaly marketing BS. I think digital makes it possible to have different systems in the market. It is totaly different as it was in the film days. You had to have a film maker that suported your film size to create a new camera.

I think that there is room in the market for both the m43 and the APS cameras/sensors.
Yes I would agree with that, it is actually happening.
It is totaly BS that it is impossible to create small APS lenses (look at samsung, look at Pentax, look at the 16mm E-mount lens, all small.
Smaller lens can be created but so far they are not small like m4/3's lenses and generally they do not perform as well as many of the m4/3's lenses. There is also no 600mm equivalent lenses like the Panasonic 100-300mm and the m/zuiko 75-300mm. There are also no uwa's like the Panasonic 7-14mm or the M.zuiko 9-18mm. These are big holes in the Sony lineup.
Sony should (and will) make more small lenses, like the mentioned brands...
Well that remains to be seen but I'm not seeing any great lens roadmaps at the moment. Even Samsung's lens roadmap is missing equivalent telephoto and uwa's, this must tell people something.

--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/
 
yes, FF is always better

which is why a FF sensor in a Nex7/x-pro1 size camera would sell like hot cakes (and does, in its own small way for the M9)

my point is that APS-C is superior to M4/3s in every metric. Easy of overall sharpness is a bogey as a PS camera is better
Unfortunately that isn't actually true though is it. If it was then nobody would buy anything else would they?
It price/quality ratio. Everyone has their own budget!
It's also not about "better" it's about "good enough", otherwise nobody would shoot with anything less than a large format camera would they.
yes, exactly

what is good enough for everyone is different. before the Nex7 I only shot FF. Thats how good it is
 
well Leica does pretty well with tiny lenses (due to both the short back focal plane, but also no AF !!)

It would be nice, but not more sense

until the Nex7 I only shot with FF. I think the Nex7 is a revelation!
You are under the assumption that lenses on sucha FF NEX camera are no bigger than current e mount/NEX lenses
Sony might release NEX 9 with hybrid alpha and E mount
That probably makes more sense than current APSC NEX
 
My prediction: Sony will release a NEX-S system within 2 years. It will either have a Nikon 1 sized sensor or one slightly smaller than M43.
You prediction seems to be correct except for small thingy. Sony will release NEX-S system with m43 type sensor in a cell phone . That would eat away any size advantages smaller sensors like m43 boasts over APC and will leave no reason to buy any m43 garbage.
It will at first use all the NEX lenses, and Sony will slowly release a batch of smaller ones for the system. It will also have IBIS.
Correct. User will have access to NEX lenses also along with ultra small high quality Zeisses. Again it will help in removing any reason to buy any m43 garbage.
Predication #2: the people here will LOVE it!
I am sure people here will love it after all who doesn't love high quality cameras that beat the cra.p out of competition.

You should buy 10-20 m43 garbage bodies and store them someplace (that blocks smell). You will need them after Panasonic Oly close their shops.

--
::> I make spelling mistakes. May Dog forgive me for this.
 
yes, FF is always better

which is why a FF sensor in a Nex7/x-pro1 size camera would sell like hot cakes (and does, in its own small way for the M9)

my point is that APS-C is superior to M4/3s in every metric. Easy of overall sharpness is a bogey as a PS camera is better
Unfortunately that isn't actually true though is it. If it was then nobody would buy anything else would they?
It price/quality ratio. Everyone has their own budget!
This is true, in terms of mirrorless I think APS-C is the new "FF". This does involve a compromise though. You will not see a 600mm equivalent telephoto lens for an APS-C mirrorless camera IMHO. It is also becoming clear that a decent uwa zoom is also going to be very difficult to design. That makes it an incomplete system for many people. M4/3's has the lead in both areas. If you want added dof control then APS-C mirrorless cameras have that advantage, however m4/3's cameras can certainly give enough dof control for many people.
It's also not about "better" it's about "good enough", otherwise nobody would shoot with anything less than a large format camera would they.
yes, exactly

what is good enough for everyone is different. before the Nex7 I only shot FF. Thats how good it is
See my comments above. The Olympus Pens have excellent resolution even on the 12mp sensors, if you want more then the NEX 7 is a good choice, as long as you don't need a sharp native uwa zoom or long native telephoto lens. Until Sony crack those options then the NEX system will lag behind m4/3's. The way I see it is that m4/3's is the only mirrorless system which is complete. Once they add focus peaking then it will pretty much tick all the boxes, even "good enough" high ISO is being realised with the new OMD by the looks of things.

I'm sure Sony could try to close that gap but the question remains whether they can and will. I think Samsung are a better bet on this at the moment, they just need to bring an evf to the table to step ahead of Sony.

--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/
 
I kind of believe Nikon 1 will survive just by marketing to point and shoot upgrader alone

There are huge number of of people who know nothing about sensor size but notice that the zoom lens is smaller (because of the small sensor but most don't understand why it matter)

MFT is actually in a strange position of not big enough and not small enough (so the lens is not that much smaller than APS-C)

I bet they will be more likely to disappear than Nikon 1
Then maybe the Nikon 1 (its smaller sensor size does less to the total bodysize then expected, the PDAF/CDAF focussing system will go to other brands too (or will be equalled by CDAF))

I think both APS and MFT will here to stay for a long time. MFT for the big usergroup allready owning this system, APS for the better IQ as a total.
By than NEX will have lots of good lens and the only disadvantage may be slightly larger lens size
I hope (and think) you are right. I do think Nex is a very good system with good to very good lenses and it is here to stay
MFT lens had not shown to be significantly smaller than APS-C
Certainly not worth the sensor disadvantage in my opinion
The most important question now is: How will Olymus get out the mess they are in? When Sony buys, will they stay in MFT? When Panasonic buys what will happen?
 
There is room for NEX zoom lens size to decrease by using folded optics for example
and when that happen MFT is doom
 

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