FF v APS?

ianbrown

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The recent development of sensors now closes the gap with higher ISO performance improving on APS.

However can anyone qualify what the main benefits of full frame are?

I know when I bought a5D MK2 3 years ago it produced much cleaner images at say ISO 1600 than most if not all APS cameras.

Full frames I guess still have the edge but for longer focal lengths I guess it's the APS that wins.

Does this really depend on what type of photography you do?

Ian
 
Sensors get better (e.g. DIGIC 5 and EXPEED 3) for both FF and APS-C cameras.
So a 5dMk2 vs 40d have both DIGIC 3 (or 4 ?) but the 5D2 has 2 stops advantage.

The 5d3 has DIGIC5 and when the 70d ond 650d will be released they have DIGIC5 as well, but will lag 2 stops behind as well particularly when they have so many megapixels (18).

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Canon EOS 40
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Canon Powershot S100
 
Main FF benefits:
  • Sharper images. Particularly in the centre of the frame, though for some lenses APS-C will give greater corner sharpness.
  • Shallower depth of field, when maintaining field of view, subject distance and f-stop. If you shoot with a 30mm f/1.4 lens on APS-C you get approximately the same DOF as shooting FF with a 50mm lens at f/2.2
  • Wide angle primes. Fast wide angle primes simply don't exist for APS-C, e.g. there is nothing like the 24 f/2.4L
 
Dust specks of a similar actual size appear less significant on the FF sensor at the same image sizes.
 
The recent development of sensors now closes the gap with higher ISO performance improving on APS.

However can anyone qualify what the main benefits of full frame are?

I know when I bought a5D MK2 3 years ago it produced much cleaner images at say ISO 1600 than most if not all APS cameras.

Full frames I guess still have the edge but for longer focal lengths I guess it's the APS that wins.

Does this really depend on what type of photography you do?

Ian
At base ISO, the difference in image quality is immaterial to say the least.

Now as the sensor gain (ISO) increases, the Full Frame sensor is able to maintain a higher SNR than that of the Crop sensor.

If you primarily shoot at higher ISO (typically low light situations), then Full Frame is your best bet.

If you're a daylight shooter or studio shooter, then really pick whichever you want, there's almost no difference in the image quality besides Full Frame having more DoF control.
 
FF camera like D800 have the ability to shoot in aps format also. So you can use FF for landscape and portrait, and switch to aps for wildlife and sports. Its like having 2 format in one camera, I wonder can canon 5d mark III do the same thing?
 
Each format have their respective benefits and disadvantages. With that in mind, I have a question and a comment to your post:

First, why do you say that full frame has "sharper images". Or, conversely, why would cropped sensors be any less "sharp"? What does sensor size have to do with "sharpness"?

Second, shallower depth of field is not always a benefit. If one WANTS a shallow depth of the field, full frame certainly would be. But I do routinely use a cropped sensor for some work simply because it gives me a bit of latitude with focus in certain situations where a shallow depth of field is less important than rock solid focus across a deeper plane.

Right on about wide angle. I much prefer using my full frame body with wide lenses than a cropped body with an equivalent ultra-wide.
Main FF benefits:
  • Sharper images. Particularly in the centre of the frame, though for some lenses APS-C will give greater corner sharpness.
  • Shallower depth of field, when maintaining field of view, subject distance and f-stop. If you shoot with a 30mm f/1.4 lens on APS-C you get approximately the same DOF as shooting FF with a 50mm lens at f/2.2
  • Wide angle primes. Fast wide angle primes simply don't exist for APS-C, e.g. there is nothing like the 24 f/2.4L
 
Yep, that sums it up nicely.
 
Each format have their respective benefits and disadvantages. With that in mind, I have a question and a comment to your post:

First, why do you say that full frame has "sharper images". Or, conversely, why would cropped sensors be any less "sharp"? What does sensor size have to do with "sharpness"?
Fundamentally when comparing images at the same output size, sensor size matters as a smaller sensor requires greater enlargement, which in turn usually results in softer images.

To look at this another way, the same lens will resolve the same number of line pairs per millimetre on the sensor plane regardless of whether it's mounted on a crop or full frame body but when you look at resolution in line pairs per picture height (the standard measure on dpreview) the full frame sensor scores higher as the sensor is taller!
Second, shallower depth of field is not always a benefit. If one WANTS a shallow depth of the field, full frame certainly would be. But I do routinely use a cropped sensor for some work simply because it gives me a bit of latitude with focus in certain situations where a shallow depth of field is less important than rock solid focus across a deeper plane.
To me the option of shallower depth of field is [almost] always a benefit. You can stop down your ff lenses to match the depth of field of a crop body but the reverse is not true.

Of course you have to up the ISO when doing this, however full frame cameras tend to do a bit better in terms of noise, and for most of the ISO range the extra noise wont be noticeable. I say almost because if you really need deeper DOF in very low light a crop might be better.
 
The recent development of sensors now closes the gap with higher ISO performance improving on APS.

However can anyone qualify what the main benefits of full frame are?

I know when I bought a5D MK2 3 years ago it produced much cleaner images at say ISO 1600 than most if not all APS cameras.

Full frames I guess still have the edge but for longer focal lengths I guess it's the APS that wins.

Does this really depend on what type of photography you do?

Ian
Oh, boy. I predict another 150 post thread, knowing how controversial this stuff is.

First, both formats can produce excellent image quality, well beyond that which will make a visible difference in the work of most people buying and using DSLRs.

Second, there are situations in which a cropped sensor body can be the best choice for a particular photographer or for particular uses. There are situations in which a full frame sensor body can be the best choice, also dependent upon the photographer's needs and how it will be used.

Third, there are performance differences between larger and smaller formats. This has always been the case - even with film - and it will continue to be so. You cannot credibly argue that there are no differences - though you can credibly argue the subjective question of when they are significant and for whom.

Some differences:
  • with a lens that produces a given lp/mm resolution, the camera/lens system is capable of registering higher system resolution with the larger format. In cases in which the upper boundaries of resolution are pushed - say for extremely large prints - this might make a small difference.
  • to get the same angle-of-view coverage of subjects, the smaller and larger formats will require lenses of different focal lengths.
  • the system with the larger sensor will generally provide more useful aperture choices between the largest available aperture and the aperture at which diffraction blur might become a concern in prints of a given size
  • in general, larger digital sensors are capable of better low light performance, either because photosites are larger on sensors of the same pixel dimensions or because the size of the noise from the photosites is finer when the larger sensor has equal photosite density
  • more ultra wide lens options exist for cameras with larger sensors - though it can equally be argued that there are more long lens options for users of cameras with smaller sensors
  • there are cost differences. they continue to decline, but there is a cost/benefit question to be considered.
  • despite the unending arguments about this, there are DOF performance differences when you consider the effect of lenses that provide the same angle of view on the different formats.
  • Other stuff...
Having said all of this, and looping back to the original post, too many people worry about this stuff more than necessary. For example, lots of people do buy DSLRs to make family photographs (the school play, soccer games, family vacation) that have good quality. They have essentially no reason at all to worry a bit about the differences between cropped and full frame sensor cameras, and in virtually all cases there is no practical advantage in getting full frame in their case. For most people who primarily or exclusively share photographs in electronic form on the web or in emails, the potential resolution advantages of full frame are completely irrelevant.

And it is also important to keep in mind that there are secondary functional differences that do matter. For example, one might have to give up faster burst mode to get an affordable full-frame camera - and each photographer then would have to honestly assess which feature would be more important.

For folks looking for a definitive "A is better than B" answer to these questions, this is going to be a frustrating discussion. For folks simply looking to understand how formats differ, this can be a very worthwhile thing to look at.

Dan

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....as well as better bokeh effect on FF. FF also require optically sound optics or else it will amplify the flaws esp on the edges. APS-c has longer focal length advantages but that dosent translate into higher IQ, FF easily wins there.
 
....as well as better bokeh effect on FF. FF also require optically sound optics or else it will amplify the flaws esp on the edges.
APS-C requires better optics than FF to resolve the same detail at the same DOF, because the photo is being enlarged 1.6x more for the same display size.
APS-c has longer focal length advantages...
This is due to the pixel density of the sensor, not the size of the sensor.
...but that dosent translate into higher IQ, FF easily wins there.
Not always. If the APS-C sensor is more efficient, has more pixels, has a lens more than 1.6x as sharp, or if FF is focal length or magificantion limited, then APS-C can have the upper hand in terms of IQ.
 
FF also require optically sound optics or else it will amplify the flaws esp on the edges.
That is the "common wisdom," but the reality is not so simple. The explanation is slightly involved, so I'll just say that the reports of worse corner performance on full frame are often overdone or just plain wrong.

Dan

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I'd suggest those that can't see any real improvement jumping to FF, that maybe you should go a little further and get a 4/3 camera or a Nikon 1. There are a lot of chances that you won't see the difference either.
Eduardo
 
FF camera like D800 have the ability to shoot in aps format also. So you can use FF for landscape and portrait, and switch to aps for wildlife and sports. Its like having 2 format in one camera, I wonder can canon 5d mark III do the same thing?
Derr ... it can. You simply crop in post! LOL!
 
Well I use a 7D and 5DIII side by side. Both have their merits - sometimes that crop factor is beneficial.

However, there is no question that at base ISO the 5D produces superior images to the 7D. Better color, much more latitude in the shadows, and less noise.

As I shoot RAW, improvements to in camera processing are not the reason. I would attribute it primarily to larger pixel sites. If the 5D sensor was cut to fit an APS camera, then I'm sure image quality would be the same - but resolution would be signicantly lower.

Personally I find the shallower DOF of the FF a big plus, and a noticably larger and brighter viewfinder view make using FF more pleasurable.

While it is true that you can get a theoretically deeper DOF with a 1.6 sensor, it is also worth noting that diffraction will impact a crop sensor much more than a FF of similar resolution.

Cheers,

Colin
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Colin K. Work
http://www.ckwphoto.com
 
....as well as better bokeh effect on FF. FF also require optically sound optics or else it will amplify the flaws esp on the edges.
APS-C requires better optics than FF to resolve the same detail at the same DOF, because the photo is being enlarged 1.6x more for the same display size.
Im taking about sharpness consistency across the image edge to edge my friend. Get a bad copy 16-35 mkII on both cameras, same image, same settings, then ul understand what I mean. The FF Edges will be mush and the crop sensor will use more of the 'sweet spot'
APS-c has longer focal length advantages...
This is due to the pixel density of the sensor, not the size of the sensor.
You are right but I havent given a scietific response why are you? Lol,
...but that dosent translate into higher IQ, FF easily wins there.
Not always. If the APS-C sensor is more efficient, has more pixels, has a lens more than 1.6x as sharp, or if FF is focal length or magificantion limited, then APS-C can have the upper hand in terms of IQ.
No scientific reasoning is gonna prove to me that my 7d can give better IQ than a 1dx.
 
OK, the more detailed explanation. Sounds like it is needed.

Lets consider removing one variable to using a singe lens on both the cropped sensor (CS) and full frame (FF) cameras. Let's say the lens produces X lp/mm resolution in the center of the frame at some aperture we'll use. First lets make photographs with both the FF and CS cameras using that lens with the same settings on both.

Indeed, the lp/mm resolution is the same on both in the center. However, that level of resolution may resolve more detail in the final photograph on the FF camera. Why? An area - let's go with one millimeter - on the FF camera comprises a smaller portion of the overall frame than on the CS camera. One way of thinking of this is to say that "there are more millimeters to hold line pairs on the system with the larger sensor."

Point: At equal lp/mm resolution, the camera/lens system with the larger sensor can resolve more line pairs across the width (or height) of the photograph.

What about corners? Let's take this in two stages.

First let's look at a point that a distance from the center of the frame that would put it in the far corners of the CS sensor image. This will be the same distance from the center on the FF system - but, of course, that will be short of the corner on the larger sensor system. At the corners of an APS-C size rectangle, whether that rectangle comprises the whole of the CS image, or a portion of the FF image, the lens will produce the same lp/mm resolution. However, here as in the case of the center comparison, the FF system will be producing higher system resolution at this point for the same reasons - an area at this distance from the center of the FF system comprises a smaller percentage of the full frame than on the CS system. Again, more millimeters to hold line pairs.

Second, what happens to the FF image beyond the point that is a distance from the center of the frame equivalent to the corners of the APS-C sensor area? It will deteriorate - some or a little - but it remains better than the CS system resolution for at least some distance beyond the edges of an APS-C size rectangle. To be clear, the overall image produced on the FF system is capable of producing higher system resolution past the edges of this area. What are the possibilities here?

1. At a very large aperture on a very poor lens it is possible that the image quality might decline far enough to equal or even be worse than that of the APS-C system resolution in the corners of the image from the smaller sensor.

2. On this lens at other apertures or on many lenses at any aperture, the system resolution of the FF camera might merely diminish only to that equal to what is found in the corners of the CS system.

3. With a decently good lens - the sort used by virtually anyone who cares about this stuff - the system resolution in the corners of the FF camera will likely still be higher than that on the CS system, especially when shooting at smaller apertures.

Of these three, what is the most likely scenario? There was a time when I believed the "common wisdom" about corner performance, which is based on lp/mm data from the corners of both systems. However, these ideas ignore the fact that larger sensor (or film) systems inherently start with higher center resolution and ignore the fact that lp/mm resolution is irrelevant for this comparison and that lp/picture width or similar should be used.

I discovered that, precisely contrary to what people (often in forums like this one) continue to repeat uncritically, in many if not most cases, the corner performance as seen in photographs made with the FF systems will be at least as good and often better than that on CS systems. Feel free to test for yourself.

I will note that vignetting (corner light fall off) can be more pronounced on FF systems with some lenses, and there is not positive compensating effect from the larger sensor. Fortunately, on most lenses this isn't even an issue, some people find some vignetting pleasing, and those who don't can easily correct this in post.

Dan
....as well as better bokeh effect on FF. FF also require optically sound optics or else it will amplify the flaws esp on the edges.
APS-C requires better optics than FF to resolve the same detail at the same DOF, because the photo is being enlarged 1.6x more for the same display size.
Im taking about sharpness consistency across the image edge to edge my friend. Get a bad copy 16-35 mkII on both cameras, same image, same settings, then ul understand what I mean. The FF Edges will be mush and the crop sensor will use more of the 'sweet spot'
APS-c has longer focal length advantages...
This is due to the pixel density of the sensor, not the size of the sensor.
You are right but I havent given a scietific response why are you? Lol,
...but that dosent translate into higher IQ, FF easily wins there.
Not always. If the APS-C sensor is more efficient, has more pixels, has a lens more than 1.6x as sharp, or if FF is focal length or magificantion limited, then APS-C can have the upper hand in terms of IQ.
No scientific reasoning is gonna prove to me that my 7d can give better IQ than a 1dx.
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....as well as better bokeh effect on FF. FF also require optically sound optics or else it will amplify the flaws esp on the edges.
APS-C requires better optics than FF to resolve the same detail at the same DOF, because the photo is being enlarged 1.6x more for the same display size.
Im taking about sharpness consistency across the image edge to edge my friend.
Wouldn't you want the most detail possible, though? My point is that, at the same DOF, FF usually resolves at least as well as crop at the edges, and significantly more near the center (for the same generation camera).
Get a bad copy 16-35 mkII on both cameras, same image, same settings, then ul understand what I mean. The FF Edges will be mush and the crop sensor will use more of the 'sweet spot'
But why would someone shoot the same scene with the same settings using FF and crop?

For example, if I were shooting a landscape at 20mm f/8 1/200 ISO 100 on crop, I'd shoot the scene at 32mm f/11 1/80 ISO 100 on FF. If there were a lot of motion in the scene, so that I needed 1/200 to avoid motion blur, then I'd use 1/200 ISO 250 on FF.
APS-c has longer focal length advantages...
This is due to the pixel density of the sensor, not the size of the sensor.
You are right but I havent given a scietific response why are you? Lol,
I don't know what you're saying.
...but that dosent translate into higher IQ, FF easily wins there.
Not always. If the APS-C sensor is more efficient, has more pixels, has a lens more than 1.6x as sharp, or if FF is focal length or magificantion limited, then APS-C can have the upper hand in terms of IQ.
No scientific reasoning is gonna prove to me that my 7d can give better IQ than a 1dx.
Let's say the longest lens you have is a 400 / 5.6L, and even that isn't long enough. A pic from the 7D is going to give you a better photo in this instance when both are cropped to the desired framing.
 

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