End Game for digital pgotography

I enjoyed looking this up. His original camera design sold for 1.3 million euros not too long ago.

I don't think we'll see anything this small in 35 mm again because of the basic differences between film and sensors in how the light rays strike. The m9 is about as small as we are going to see in a FF and they were able to pull it off with the directional micro lenses.

It's a shame as the OM series was very small for being a FF dslr.

Best we are going to get is a smaller sensor in a bigger body than a film version of the same film size would get us.

--
John Mason - Lafayette, IN

http://www.fototime.com/inv/407B931C53A9D9D
 
Really, you don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever shot full frame? Maybe 35mm film, with a decent, fast prime? It's not about noise or dynamic range. It's about focal length, composition and subject isolation. Even lowest noise figures cannot "fix" the geometry of the sensor.

--
Everybody loves gadgets, until they try to make them
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thinkfat
http://thinkfat.blogspot.com
 
Are you familiar with the Leica Barnak 35mm film camera's? Not only were they true 35mm - the same size as what we call FF in digital sensors, but they are still just a little smaller than my Olympus E-P1 and my new E-PL1. What matters, and what I want you to understand is that the M39 Leica Screw Mount lenses that were designed for these cameras are smaller than m4/3 lenses.
You are forgetting that film had much worse quality back in the 1920s and 30s than today. Also film enlargements are very demanding of the printing chain (alignment of enlargers, optical quality of enlarging lens, avoiding dust & scratches, etc.). Digital sensors have much lower noise than film and digital printing doesn't suffer from scaling issues (it's much more like contact printing than film enlargement).

There is nothing sacred about 24x36mm: it was chosen by an accident of history (joining together two 35mm movie film frames). I believe today's smaller m4/3 format cameras exceed original 35mm in every respect (except perhaps DOF control -- which is a physical limitation) and FF cameras approach or exceed fmedium format film.

As to size: I think the E-PM1 with a pancake lens is ligher and smaller than the Leica screw mount (not to mention a lot more "features" --- but if you might not need/want them).

Pedro
 
Really, you don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever shot full frame? Maybe 35mm film, with a decent, fast prime? It's not about noise or dynamic range. It's about focal length, composition and subject isolation. Even lowest noise figures cannot "fix" the geometry of the sensor.
That's for the purist.

In film days the rather dreadful 35mm film was good enough for 99.9% of the population even when 120 roll film was way better.

It's the same now, my wife's Casio EX-ZR100 churns out stuff as good as most 35mm film efforts when the light is fair to good. What more is needed? And that camera has 24-300mm equivalent and slips into her purse neatly.

The sweet spot though for quality compacts seems to be the LX4/S100 size sensor and about 10 MP but the 99.9% again really only need the 1/2.33" sensor.

The whole idea of the digital camera era is to produce good enough results for as low a cost as possible to manufacture, and small sensors are way cheaper to make than whopping great FF sensors. And then there's the lenses, smaller sensors use shorter focal lengths and that equals smaller glass and less expensive to produce.

The real future is most people using the 1/2.33" sensor (or smaller if they all migrate to phone use), some seeking more quality and more versatility will use the M4/3 or APS-C size sensors and interchangeable lenses. Only strict quality needs will require FF or larger for maybe 0.1% of users or less, and the cost to buy will be appropriate to size.

Dreams of FF for the masses are totally out of order, too damn expensive to make.

Regards............ Guy
 
I am not sure indeed I read the whole thread, but the point seemed to me that you gave priority to your Leica lenses recovering their true focal length.

That won't happen insofar the Leica (small) system has been made obsolete by the soaring of digital ones like m4/3.

DOF is the least of my concerns, but reports about the 12/2 show that bokeh is perfectly obtainable with the new lenses.

So the FF hypothesis is really unnecessary unless you need great print size, which restricts it only to a few jobs. I don't make this up, it was one of the Oly execs which said so.

Despite this some smartasses resurrect the hope of digital FF from time to time. I am sorry if you took the flak, but one must be vigilant against the heresy :)

Am.
--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
 
Anders it's not a pocketability craze. It's an understanding of where 35mm film cameras started from. They were designed to be small and pocketable with good enough IQ as compared to the Large Wooden BOx cameras of the perriod.
Leica 35 mm film cameras are/were designed to be small but not necessarily pocketable. I appreciate the fact that MFT cameras are small too but do not demand that they be so small as to be pocketable inasmuch as that infringes too much on their ergonomics. I want a full-featured camera with a good grip and a full set of external controls. Furthermore, I see no major reason to carry the camera in my pockets since there are other convenient ways of carrying it. When pocketability becomes the overarching concern, at the expense of all others, then I am inclined to call it a craze.
 
Meanwhile back in the real world there are any number of hurdles to achieving your vision, both technological and otherwise. I'd be the first in line for a FF mirrorless with bodies and lenses the size of m4/3, but if it's even physically possible on the lens side we'll be waiting a long time for this end game you envision to become reality.
 
Will probably be m4/3. But a FF small digital camera may make it into the mix. Too soon to tell.
-Peter
Really, you don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever shot full frame? Maybe 35mm film, with a decent, fast prime? It's not about noise or dynamic range. It's about focal length, composition and subject isolation. Even lowest noise figures cannot "fix" the geometry of the sensor.
That's for the purist.

In film days the rather dreadful 35mm film was good enough for 99.9% of the population even when 120 roll film was way better.

It's the same now, my wife's Casio EX-ZR100 churns out stuff as good as most 35mm film efforts when the light is fair to good. What more is needed? And that camera has 24-300mm equivalent and slips into her purse neatly.

The sweet spot though for quality compacts seems to be the LX4/S100 size sensor and about 10 MP but the 99.9% again really only need the 1/2.33" sensor.

The whole idea of the digital camera era is to produce good enough results for as low a cost as possible to manufacture, and small sensors are way cheaper to make than whopping great FF sensors. And then there's the lenses, smaller sensors use shorter focal lengths and that equals smaller glass and less expensive to produce.

The real future is most people using the 1/2.33" sensor (or smaller if they all migrate to phone use), some seeking more quality and more versatility will use the M4/3 or APS-C size sensors and interchangeable lenses. Only strict quality needs will require FF or larger for maybe 0.1% of users or less, and the cost to buy will be appropriate to size.

Dreams of FF for the masses are totally out of order, too damn expensive to make.

Regards............ Guy
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
I know my m4/3 gear is a lot less expensive than my FF DSLR camera and lenses and even less than most of my cropped sensor DSLR's. I certainly did write a great deal about a possible future FF small camera so I gues I ticked a few boxes that alerted you and awakend your vigalantizm. But I know near the end of my OP I came to the realization m4/3 can do everything I need. Or will be able to do that once I purchase some wide angle lenses.

I have come to appreciate the small size and definetly good enough IQ that I see from my 3 m4/3 cameras and lenses.

The Leica lenses that I do have were purchased as a result of my purchasing the Leica M5 35mm film camera and a year later my Epson R-D1 digital rangefinder. I have been spoiled with digital now.

To my surprise all of my Leica, Voightlander and Russian copies of original Leica lenses do work rather well on my m4/3 bodies. I was lucky that I purchased these lenses several years ago. Very lucky to have my own Leica 50mm f/1.4 Summilux first version made in 1959 to use on my R-D1, E-P1, E-PL1 (new) and G1. This lens is a favorite portrait lens on these cameras.

When I can, I would like to purchase the Oly 12mm f/2 and the 45mm f/1.8 and an OMD E-M5.

I still like my Kodak SLR/n FF DSLR for using my many Nikon Ai lenses at their designed FL. It does not meter with my old lenses so I enjoy using the Sunny 16 Rules with the Kodak. It's not all that large and certainly not too heavy. It's my second most used camera after my E-P1. I have and do appreciate my Canon 1DsMkII for it's great IQ, but I dislike the handling because of it's large size and it's just plain old heavy, especially with an "L" lens mounted.
-Peter
I am not sure indeed I read the whole thread, but the point seemed to me that you gave priority to your Leica lenses recovering their true focal length.

That won't happen insofar the Leica (small) system has been made obsolete by the soaring of digital ones like m4/3.

DOF is the least of my concerns, but reports about the 12/2 show that bokeh is perfectly obtainable with the new lenses.

So the FF hypothesis is really unnecessary unless you need great print size, which restricts it only to a few jobs. I don't make this up, it was one of the Oly execs which said so.

Despite this some smartasses resurrect the hope of digital FF from time to time. I am sorry if you took the flak, but one must be vigilant against the heresy :)

Am.
--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
Well my real primary concern is IQ, adding pocketability to the mix and I am a happy photographer.
-Peter
Anders it's not a pocketability craze. It's an understanding of where 35mm film cameras started from. They were designed to be small and pocketable with good enough IQ as compared to the Large Wooden BOx cameras of the perriod.
Leica 35 mm film cameras are/were designed to be small but not necessarily pocketable. I appreciate the fact that MFT cameras are small too but do not demand that they be so small as to be pocketable inasmuch as that infringes too much on their ergonomics. I want a full-featured camera with a good grip and a full set of external controls. Furthermore, I see no major reason to carry the camera in my pockets since there are other convenient ways of carrying it. When pocketability becomes the overarching concern, at the expense of all others, then I am inclined to call it a craze.
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
The problem is that nobody can define pocketable. You coin it as being able to carry equipment in your pant pockets. I think that any camera that can fit in a pant pocket is too small for me. I find carrying a camera in a pant as not practical.

To my understanding you pledge that m4/3 equipment in average still needs to get smaller. I think that this is a wrong trend. I feel that current m4/3 portfolio has about the right product "size mixture". There are cameras and lenses, which are bigger for better handling, and there are cameras and lenses, which are utterly small for pocketability. Diversity is the key, not pocketable monoculture.

Pocketability and practicability have nothing to do with each other. Both are subjective and situative aspects. The smaller the more practical is not true, as it isn't vice versa.
You wrote:
"obcesed" about pocketability. I say it's a simple practical matter.
I have 2 FF DSLR's and a third Nikon Pro D1H, all three are very large, well except the Kodak SLRE/n.

Future small digital cameras as evidenced by the NEX 7 and OMD E-M5 will have enough external manual controls.
I don't think that it will become even remotely true that a majority of camera system owner want pocketable system cameras. I don't know why you are so obsessed with that. Pocketable system cameras are one extreme of them, mostly on heavy expenses regarding usability and ergonomics (and, yes, and don't think that the usability and ergonomics of the quoted Leica M39 cameras and lenses were very good).

For me cameras like the GH2 and EM-5 are the sweet spot regarding weight, size, usability, and ergonomics for camera system bodies. Anything smaller is only special purpose, like use cases, where someone needs to carry a camera in a pant pocket (I would never do that regularly).

So, the scenario, you describe, is the worst I can imagine, although not regarding sensor size. The camera miniaturization race is worse than the megapixel race, and the design of some products went clearly in the wrong direction (G3, 2.5/14mm, X 14-42mm a because of its smallness probably ill-designed lens with IQ problems). Their are already rumors out that the GH3 will be more akin to the G3.

I don't deny the fact that pocketable system cameras have their place and justification, but they should not become the future standard, only an alternative to larger cameras.
--
Thomas
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
--
Thomas
 
Why does every noob think that ultra narrow DoF is the end-all in photography? 99% of most images are better with more DoF, not less!!!

I've shot 35mm, MF and LF. I rarely said that I had to use MF or LF because of the "better" DoF, in fact, unless I could stop down I'd just use the inferior 35mm camera.

If you are only going to have one camera, then you kind of have to find an optimum. Probably for DoF flexibility it is probably somewhere between m43 and FF (35mm). Instead of large sensors and lenses, a longer lens is often more than enough even on m43. Shoot the Oly 45 wide open and you are narrow enough for most "background isolation."
 
Sorry to disapoint you Yohan but the M39 Leica screw mount FF lenses already exist! ;-)
As far as advances in electronic's, well you shaln't have long to wait!
-Peter
Meanwhile back in the real world there are any number of hurdles to achieving your vision, both technological and otherwise. I'd be the first in line for a FF mirrorless with bodies and lenses the size of m4/3, but if it's even physically possible on the lens side we'll be waiting a long time for this end game you envision to become reality.
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
I hope your not calling me a noob. heck I'm 62 this month and have been using cameras since the age of 5.
Yes I too had a LF Crown Graphic for a long time.

I included the FF DOF as possibly the only real difference between FF and m4/3. Don't believe me, then go back and read my OP.

BTW, I never said, nor did I encounter any replies stating the narow DOF is the be all and end all in photography. Where did you get that idea from anyway?
-Peter
Why does every noob think that ultra narrow DoF is the end-all in photography? 99% of most images are better with more DoF, not less!!!

I've shot 35mm, MF and LF. I rarely said that I had to use MF or LF because of the "better" DoF, in fact, unless I could stop down I'd just use the inferior 35mm camera.

If you are only going to have one camera, then you kind of have to find an optimum. Probably for DoF flexibility it is probably somewhere between m43 and FF (35mm). Instead of large sensors and lenses, a longer lens is often more than enough even on m43. Shoot the Oly 45 wide open and you are narrow enough for most "background isolation."
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
Sorry I have never felt nor implied that m4/3 should get smaller.

My PEN E-P1 is just about perfect in size, while my new E-PL1 is a tiny bit small for me. Both fit in a pocket with certain lenses mounted. That was my point in the other post.

No one say's the smaller the more practical. You seem to read to much into things and then make incorrect extrapulations.

Just deal with what is actually written and do not put a slant on it, moving it into another meaning.
-Peter
The problem is that nobody can define pocketable. You coin it as being able to carry equipment in your pant pockets. I think that any camera that can fit in a pant pocket is too small for me. I find carrying a camera in a pant as not practical.

To my understanding you pledge that m4/3 equipment in average still needs to get smaller. I think that this is a wrong trend. I feel that current m4/3 portfolio has about the right product "size mixture". There are cameras and lenses, which are bigger for better handling, and there are cameras and lenses, which are utterly small for pocketability. Diversity is the key, not pocketable monoculture.

Pocketability and practicability have nothing to do with each other. Both are subjective and situative aspects. The smaller the more practical is not true, as it isn't vice versa.
You wrote:
"obcesed" about pocketability. I say it's a simple practical matter.
I have 2 FF DSLR's and a third Nikon Pro D1H, all three are very large, well except the Kodak SLRE/n.

Future small digital cameras as evidenced by the NEX 7 and OMD E-M5 will have enough external manual controls.
I don't think that it will become even remotely true that a majority of camera system owner want pocketable system cameras. I don't know why you are so obsessed with that. Pocketable system cameras are one extreme of them, mostly on heavy expenses regarding usability and ergonomics (and, yes, and don't think that the usability and ergonomics of the quoted Leica M39 cameras and lenses were very good).

For me cameras like the GH2 and EM-5 are the sweet spot regarding weight, size, usability, and ergonomics for camera system bodies. Anything smaller is only special purpose, like use cases, where someone needs to carry a camera in a pant pocket (I would never do that regularly).

So, the scenario, you describe, is the worst I can imagine, although not regarding sensor size. The camera miniaturization race is worse than the megapixel race, and the design of some products went clearly in the wrong direction (G3, 2.5/14mm, X 14-42mm a because of its smallness probably ill-designed lens with IQ problems). Their are already rumors out that the GH3 will be more akin to the G3.

I don't deny the fact that pocketable system cameras have their place and justification, but they should not become the future standard, only an alternative to larger cameras.
--
Thomas
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
--
Thomas
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
Consider also the lens size and also the enjoyment in use. The size of human hands and their strength should ultimately decide what is the best size and weight of a camera most of the enthusiasts want to us. Once technology is good enough to produce images that are good enough (dependent on various needs), then there is no point continuing to get a tiny camera. The NEX cameras have already shown us that it is the wrong path to take.

If anything, I think the m4/3 cameras can be made a little bit larger. Then they will be even better for the sensor/lens size and better in handling and provide space for more buttons and better shaped and postioned dials, grip etc. That's what I hope to see in the E-M6 and GH3.
 
Really, you don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever shot full frame? Maybe 35mm film, with a decent, fast prime? It's not about noise or dynamic range. It's about focal length, composition and subject isolation. Even lowest noise figures cannot "fix" the geometry of the sensor.
That's for the purist.

In film days the rather dreadful 35mm film was good enough for 99.9% of the population even when 120 roll film was way better.

It's the same now, my wife's Casio EX-ZR100 churns out stuff as good as most 35mm film efforts when the light is fair to good. What more is needed? And that camera has 24-300mm equivalent and slips into her purse neatly.

The sweet spot though for quality compacts seems to be the LX4/S100 size sensor and about 10 MP but the 99.9% again really only need the 1/2.33" sensor.

The whole idea of the digital camera era is to produce good enough results for as low a cost as possible to manufacture, and small sensors are way cheaper to make than whopping great FF sensors. And then there's the lenses, smaller sensors use shorter focal lengths and that equals smaller glass and less expensive to produce.

The real future is most people using the 1/2.33" sensor (or smaller if they all migrate to phone use), some seeking more quality and more versatility will use the M4/3 or APS-C size sensors and interchangeable lenses. Only strict quality needs will require FF or larger for maybe 0.1% of users or less, and the cost to buy will be appropriate to size.

Dreams of FF for the masses are totally out of order, too damn expensive to make.

Regards............ Guy
I think this is a very perceptive and accurate assessment, but I think the real future will combine our phone, our camera, our computer, and our access to markets and money in one small device. It's in its infancy now.
--
Dave
 
I'd like to know why you are saying this. No one here is advocating a reduction in size of m4/3 cameras. Show me to whom you are resonding please.

It's some kind of a phenominum where people start making comments about subjects where there is no reason to make them. NO ONE IS SAYING TO MAKE M4/3 SMALLER.
Consider also the lens size and also the enjoyment in use. The size of human hands and their strength should ultimately decide what is the best size and weight of a camera most of the enthusiasts want to us. Once technology is good enough to produce images that are good enough (dependent on various needs), then there is no point continuing to get a tiny camera. The NEX cameras have already shown us that it is the wrong path to take.

If anything, I think the m4/3 cameras can be made a little bit larger. Then they will be even better for the sensor/lens size and better in handling and provide space for more buttons and better shaped and postioned dials, grip etc. That's what I hope to see in the E-M6 and GH3.
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
That's exactly why I wrote "I'm old school" and "In my time" and also a time when everything realy changes.

For me at age 62 I want a camera to have interchangeable lenses and look like a camera. Years from now, when it's your generations time and my childrens time I am sure cameras will be combined with phones and not resemble anything I would care to use. But that's in a more distant future, whereas my post is about the more immediate future.
Otherwise I agree with you.
-Peter
Really, you don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever shot full frame? Maybe 35mm film, with a decent, fast prime? It's not about noise or dynamic range. It's about focal length, composition and subject isolation. Even lowest noise figures cannot "fix" the geometry of the sensor.
That's for the purist.

In film days the rather dreadful 35mm film was good enough for 99.9% of the population even when 120 roll film was way better.

It's the same now, my wife's Casio EX-ZR100 churns out stuff as good as most 35mm film efforts when the light is fair to good. What more is needed? And that camera has 24-300mm equivalent and slips into her purse neatly.

The sweet spot though for quality compacts seems to be the LX4/S100 size sensor and about 10 MP but the 99.9% again really only need the 1/2.33" sensor.

The whole idea of the digital camera era is to produce good enough results for as low a cost as possible to manufacture, and small sensors are way cheaper to make than whopping great FF sensors. And then there's the lenses, smaller sensors use shorter focal lengths and that equals smaller glass and less expensive to produce.

The real future is most people using the 1/2.33" sensor (or smaller if they all migrate to phone use), some seeking more quality and more versatility will use the M4/3 or APS-C size sensors and interchangeable lenses. Only strict quality needs will require FF or larger for maybe 0.1% of users or less, and the cost to buy will be appropriate to size.

Dreams of FF for the masses are totally out of order, too damn expensive to make.

Regards............ Guy
I think this is a very perceptive and accurate assessment, but I think the real future will combine our phone, our camera, our computer, and our access to markets and money in one small device. It's in its infancy now.
--
Dave
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 

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