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IBIS and the lack of it with NEX - a question

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Mike Fewster said:
And while imforming us that Nikon and Canon don't use IBIS because they want to make more money, you conveniently forget to tell us that Panasonic don't use it in their mft cameras either (although they do use it in other cameras they make
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I though you were smarter, but I guess not.

YES, Panasonic is doing the SAME thing as Canon and Nikon. I am not going to leave that out. I think it is a big mistake. Olympus sells more bodies and makes smaller lighter lenses than Panasonic. (note: I do not own ANY Olympus cameras or lenses right now).

So here are the facts:
  • Sony puts IBIS in EVERY camera that I see on their site except 3 (all NEX).
  • Sony for years has stated IBIS is extrememly important.
  • A zoom lens with IS costs hunreds more in many cases than the same zoom without IS (compare the Canon 70-200mm F/4s for an example).
  • Any lens with IS will be heavier and cost more to make.
  • Sony makes 400mm zooms and now a 500mm prime without IS, and Alpha users are not complaining.
Maybe Sony is not try to get people to pay more for lenses, and maybe they screwed up when designing NEX. I 'll let people decide that for themselves. But why does Sony put it in EVERY other camera they make?
It is not my argument, it is Sony's. They push IBIS for a reason.
 
If you're going to be doing a lot of telephoto shots esp. with legacy lenses esp. in low light then yes it is a problem. It was a deal breaker for me so I got an a77. If you're going to be doing portraits the larger Sony sensor will give you shallower depth of field. That's the main reason I gave up on m4/3 which is otherwise a fine system. And most Olympus lenses are excellent.
 
Everdog said:
Mike Fewster said:
And while imforming us that Nikon and Canon don't use IBIS because they want to make more money, you conveniently forget to tell us that Panasonic don't use it in their mft cameras either (although they do use it in other cameras they make
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I though you were smarter, but I guess not.
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Yes, you do a lot of guessing
Everdog said:
YES, Panasonic is doing the SAME thing as Canon and Nikon. I am not going to leave that out.
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But you did, until pulled up on it.

I think it is a big mistake. Olympus sells more bodies and makes smaller lighter lenses than Panasonic. (note: I do not own ANY Olympus cameras or lenses right now).
Everdog said:
So here are the facts:
  • Sony puts IBIS in EVERY camera that I see on their site except 3 (all NEX).
  • Sony for years has stated IBIS is extrememly important.
  • A zoom lens with IS costs hunreds more in many cases than the same zoom without IS (compare the Canon 70-200mm F/4s for an example).
  • Any lens with IS will be heavier and cost more to make.
  • Sony makes 400mm zooms and now a 500mm prime without IS, and Alpha users are not complaining.
Maybe Sony is not try to get people to pay more for lenses, and maybe they screwed up when designing NEX. I 'll let people decide that for themselves. But why does Sony put it in EVERY other camera they make?
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Lots more guessing. The cost of the lenses is uttelry irrelevant. What is important is the margin. To run this line you need to show that the manufacturer makes a bigger margin on cameras and lenses with OIS.
Everdog said:
It is not my argument, it is Sony's. They push IBIS for a reason.
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Yes, on the cameras where it is appropriate to do so. And you continue to ignore, as you always do, the reasons that were given to you (not for the first time) as to why it is used on some cameras and not others and just plow on irrespective with the same nonsense.

Tell me Everdog, I think it was you about a year ago who kept posting saying that Sony engineers weren't smart enough to make an IBIS. You were then gently given a history lesson on the development of IBIS.

--
Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
 
I couldnt bring myself to read all of this thread, as it is not totally relevant to me as I am committed to the Nex series.

Sorry if I repeat

1. The quality of the glass is of HUGE importance.

2. If you are planning to take a lot of video, you are stuck with OSS lenses. It shoudl work better than IBIS, but limits lens options. However, if video is of critical importance to you and the Sony lens prices are too high or too limiting then the discussion is pretty much over.

3. If you are planning to mostly capture people, family, memories, etc. then, for most focal distances you will need, you will need a higher shutter speed to freeze the action than is necessary to eliminate shaking issues, thus it is not relevant in those cases.

4. If you are planning to take a lot of landscape shots you really should have a tripod, so not crucial in that issue.

5. If you are planning to take really long range shots (500mm) you will see minimum benefits, and will need a tripod.

6. If you are planning on shooting family events or outdoor bright light shots from a distance with moderate focal range, 135mm, it would be useful for framing and focus, but not crucial for getting the actual shot.

7. If you are planning on run and gun of wild life in the woods at 135mm-300mm or so, then it is critical to have some kind of stabilization. OSS is fine, or IBIS, so investigate your lens options

IMHO, OSS and IBIS are really over-hyped for PHOTOS. Of course Sony says you must have it in most of their marketing, they are trying to sell cameras and it is nice to have, but once you learn more about the interaction of ISO, Shutter speed, and aperture you learn to identify in what scenarios you would need to drop your shutter speed low, whether that is sufficient to capture the desired image, and realize that in the vast majority of most shooters needs there is very little reason to do so hand held on a regular basis.
 
Mike Fewster said:
Everdog said:
Mike Fewster wrote:
So here are the facts:
  • Sony puts IBIS in EVERY camera that I see on their site except 3 (all NEX).
  • Sony for years has stated IBIS is extrememly important.
  • A zoom lens with IS costs hunreds more in many cases than the same zoom without IS (compare the Canon 70-200mm F/4s for an example).
  • Any lens with IS will be heavier and cost more to make.
  • Sony makes 400mm zooms and now a 500mm prime without IS, and Alpha users are not complaining.
Click to expand...
Lots more guessing. The cost of the lenses is uttelry irrelevant...
Click to expand...
Whre is the guessing? The above are all facts. Do you dispute any of those points?
Mike Fewster said:
Mike Fewster said:
It is not my argument, it is Sony's. They push IBIS for a reason.
Click to expand...
Tell me Everdog, I think it was you about a year ago who kept posting saying that Sony engineers weren't smart enough to make an IBIS. You were then gently given a history lesson on the development of IBIS.
Click to expand...
Um, Sony bought Minolta. They have used IBIS for years.

Maybe Sony was not smart enough to make IBIS fit in a NEX. You seem to be saying that. I can't believe it because they also make very good electonic IBIS (A65/A77 even use it for video). Clearly they could have included electronic IBIS for video in the NEX 7, but for reason left it off. You could then shoot steady low light video with the 25mm prime or ANY legacy lens!

Oh well, enjoy you camera. That is what this is all about.
 
Everdog said:
Mike Fewster said:
Everdog said:
Mike Fewster wrote:
So here are the facts:
  • Sony puts IBIS in EVERY camera that I see on their site except 3 (all NEX).
  • Sony for years has stated IBIS is extrememly important.
  • A zoom lens with IS costs hunreds more in many cases than the same zoom without IS (compare the Canon 70-200mm F/4s for an example).
  • Any lens with IS will be heavier and cost more to make.
  • Sony makes 400mm zooms and now a 500mm prime without IS, and Alpha users are not complaining.
Click to expand...
Lots more guessing. The cost of the lenses is uttelry irrelevant...
Click to expand...
Whre is the guessing? The above are all facts. Do you dispute any of those points?
Click to expand...
Your usual trick. You take a statement out of the context it was in, then try to male it into an argument
Everdog said:
Everdog said:
Everdog said:
It is not my argument, it is Sony's. They push IBIS for a reason.
Click to expand...
Tell me Everdog, I think it was you about a year ago who kept posting saying that Sony engineers weren't smart enough to make an IBIS. You were then gently given a history lesson on the development of IBIS.
Click to expand...
Um, Sony bought Minolta. They have used IBIS for years.
Maybe Sony was not smart enough to make IBIS fit in a NEX.
Click to expand...
And maybe, just may be, they knew enough about IBIS to know it wasn't as good as OSS for this type of camera (ie small body with large sensor and video.

You seem to be saying that. I can't believe it because they also make very good electonic IBIS (A65/A77 even use it for video).

You just don't have a clue about Sony lenses. and IBIS. And why do you suppose that as video has been edded to the larger Sony bodies they have also begun adding OIS to new lenses for these cameras also?

Clearly they could have included electronic IBIS for video in the NEX 7, but for reason left it off. You could then shoot steady low light video with the 25mm prime or ANY legacy lens!
Everdog said:
Oh well, enjoy you camera. That is what this is all about.
Click to expand...
--
Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
 
I own the EP-1 and the NEX-7.

I have the OM-D EM-5 on pre-order, but will probably cancel it.

All of these arguments are silly. IBIS or OIS is silly. The best image quality is what is important. Clearly, the NEX is slightly better in image quality. Is is enough to push you one way or the other? For me, it is yes. For others, not so much.

Now with the Conrus adapter I can use all of my Canon lenses and still use their OIS. Since I have some pretty good Canon glass already, probably need to get me one of these.

Also, the EVF is not as good as that on the NEX. The one in the NEX is usable - not the one on the Oly. It is not very good at all.

Also, what pushes it for me is the placement of the EVF. It being to the side on the NEX-7 makes that camera extremely usable for the right-eyed shooter. You can view the scene and the EVF simultaneously without smashing your nose into the camera. The one on the Oly is centered and smaller. It is not going to be as usable.

Don't get me wrong, there is much to recommend the Oly. The lenses are great, though you will lose short DOF. IBIS is nice as is the focus speed.

The real answer is, what do you need to get great images?

No one ever looking at your shots is going to be truly interested in your gear, that is unless the image is not good enough to make them not care.

Enjoy
--
Peter Sills
Digital Focus
http://www.digitalfocus.net
http://www.focusstudios.com
 
"..If you're going to be doing portraits the larger Sony sensor will give you shallower depth of field..."...the new 75mm f1.8 oly will solve the problem...
 
And with this lens I could shot a portrait at 1/20 f1.8 iso 200( in very low light situation), and on a sony nex with similar focal range (150mm) i'll have to use 1600iso....so ibis can make the difference...
 
lowincash said:
I just sold my nex-7 and zeiss 24mm lens today then pre-ordered the e-m5. Don't get me wrong, I love the 7+24mm combo a lot but I also like using legacy lenses and having IBIS would be very very helpful, especially in the 100mm and above range. It was a very tough decision, but I must try it out to satisfy my curiosity lol If I'm not satisfy with the Oly, I can always go back to the 7. Good thing I was able to sell it for almost the same price I bought it for. I wish I can have both cameras =/
Click to expand...
Wait, so you sold your NEX-7 for a camera that doesn't even have a review yet?

Good luck with that I guess.
 
Everdog said:
gfrensen said:
The only mirrorless cameras with IBIS are the Olumpus annd Penrtax cameras, all other depend on ILIS, wonder why...
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You should change that to say, virtually all Sony camera bodies sold today (except the 3 NEX) rely on IBIS. I wonder why Sony thinks it is so important? How can they selll 400mm zoom and 500mm primes if they did not believe in IBIS? Why have they pushed IBIS so hard all these years? Why do the Alpha owners with the 70-400mm zoom rave about IBIS?
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First and for all, why are you not reading my post? Why are you telling me what to say?

When you read my post you see that I am talking about mirrorless cameras, not about any other camer!

Then do you know that almost all Cybershot cameras (also made by Sony) are using ILIS? so there are more cameras from Sony with ILIS then with IBIS. (Optical Steady Shot is ILIS!)

Then IS is great to have. As you are told a zilion times, There are besides bennefits of IBIS also some downsides. Look at the answers in all those threads to see what they are. Unlike you I will not repead this any more....
Everdog said:
They only reason I know to leave it off is to make more money, like Canon and Nikon do. Every see the price price difference between an IS and non-IS lens? Check out the Canon 70-200mm lenses and you see why they left IS off their DSLR bodies!
Click to expand...
Canon and Nikon had ILIS lenses before the DSLRS came, with film IBIS is a challenge to make! Then when the DSLRs came the continued to make and promote ILIS lenses.

Minolta had no ILIS lenses and created IBIS so they did not needed to create new lenses, that would be to expensive for them...

Sony took over Minolta so did start using and promoting the IBIS system for the DSLRs.

Sony used before that ILIS in ther camcorders, and Cybershots and continued to use it...

Olympus understands the problems with IBIS for using it with video so they turn it of in video mode and start to use an electronic IS (without moving parts)

Sony used ILIS for NEx when you want to know why rread the many answers you alread get.

BTW go to a doctor and let him check you for Altzheimer when you do not remember those answers
 
Gianluca Grossi said:
And with this lens I could shot a portrait at 1/20 f1.8 iso 200( in very low light situation), and on a sony nex with similar focal range (150mm) i'll have to use 1600iso....so ibis can make the difference...
Click to expand...
Well what a nonsens! When you use a simular lens on the Sony, you can take the same picture with the same ISO at the same speed when using a tripod or monopod.. Or you can use other technics to steady your camera, or you can use better light
 
gfrensen said:
Gianluca Grossi said:
And with this lens I could shot a portrait at 1/20 f1.8 iso 200( in very low light situation), and on a sony nex with similar focal range (150mm) i'll have to use 1600iso....so ibis can make the difference...
Click to expand...
Well what a nonsens! When you use a simular lens on the Sony, you can take the same picture with the same ISO at the same speed when using a tripod or monopod.. Or you can use other technics to steady your camera, or you can use better light.
Click to expand...
...You are really a funny boy....:)....".tripod/better light"...often you don't have these helps.I try to go out as light as i can and if I want to shot a person in a club may be I can ask to turn the light on...com'on!!!!!
..IBIS is always with you!...and this is a big advantage.
 
Gianluca Grossi said:
gfrensen said:
Gianluca Grossi said:
And with this lens I could shot a portrait at 1/20 f1.8 iso 200( in very low light situation), and on a sony nex with similar focal range (150mm) i'll have to use 1600iso....so ibis can make the difference...
Click to expand...
Well what a nonsens! When you use a simular lens on the Sony, you can take the same picture with the same ISO at the same speed when using a tripod or monopod.. Or you can use other technics to steady your camera, or you can use better light.
Click to expand...
...You are really a funny boy....:)....".tripod/better light"...often you don't have these helps.I try to go out as light as i can and if I want to shot a person in a club may be I can ask to turn the light on...com'on!!!!!
..IBIS is always with you!...and this is a big advantage.
Click to expand...
I am not happy that with the E-5M (and 5N) you may have to carry a flash around too (I love to use a fill-in flash effect). Now this guy says you should carry a tripod everywhere with your tiny camera? It kind of defeats the purpose. This is why I take an SLT (with IBIS) everywhere. I would like to reduce its size, but adding a tripod/monopod is going in the opposite direction.

If I get a NEX7, I would stick with the IS lenses, and hope that Sony makes more. Even better would be to add IBIS to the NEX 8. :)
 
Peter Sills said:
I own the EP-1 and the NEX-7.

I have the OM-D EM-5 on pre-order, but will probably cancel it.

All of these arguments are silly. IBIS or OIS is silly. The best image quality is what is important. Clearly, the NEX is slightly better in image quality. Is is enough to push you one way or the other? For me, it is yes. For others, not so much.

Now with the Conrus adapter I can use all of my Canon lenses and still use their OIS. Since I have some pretty good Canon glass already, probably need to get me one of these.

Also, the EVF is not as good as that on the NEX. The one in the NEX is usable - not the one on the Oly. It is not very good at all.

Also, what pushes it for me is the placement of the EVF. It being to the side on the NEX-7 makes that camera extremely usable for the right-eyed shooter. You can view the scene and the EVF simultaneously without smashing your nose into the camera. The one on the Oly is centered and smaller. It is not going to be as usable.

Don't get me wrong, there is much to recommend the Oly. The lenses are great, though you will lose short DOF. IBIS is nice as is the focus speed.

The real answer is, what do you need to get great images?

No one ever looking at your shots is going to be truly interested in your gear, that is unless the image is not good enough to make them not care.

Enjoy
--
Peter Sills
Digital Focus
http://www.digitalfocus.net
http://www.focusstudios.com
Click to expand...
I canceled my preorder too for EM-5 and going with the NEX7. I ordered a few lenses too. Can't wait. :)
 
Yeah don't worry about that, I already know what I'm getting myself into =] I've had the NEX-7 for over 2 months and although I love the nex I just wanted to have more options. I've seen enough first hand previews and reviews to want give it a try plus I still have my slow 20mm 1.7 lens that I used on the G3 and E-P3 that I had before lol
Ryan_Valiente said:
lowincash said:
I just sold my nex-7 and zeiss 24mm lens today then pre-ordered the e-m5. Don't get me wrong, I love the 7+24mm combo a lot but I also like using legacy lenses and having IBIS would be very very helpful, especially in the 100mm and above range. It was a very tough decision, but I must try it out to satisfy my curiosity lol If I'm not satisfy with the Oly, I can always go back to the 7. Good thing I was able to sell it for almost the same price I bought it for. I wish I can have both cameras =/
Click to expand...
Wait, so you sold your NEX-7 for a camera that doesn't even have a review yet?

Good luck with that I guess.
Click to expand...
 
I don't use IS much and get a lot of good shots with all sorts of lenses out of my NEX. One technique I use to cheat a bit to is put it on multi shot and blast away. Even on my old NEX-5 at least one of the shots out of the 7/sec it takes will be perfectly stable.
 
Jonathan_Whiteman said:
I don't use IS much and get a lot of good shots with all sorts of lenses out of my NEX. One technique I use to cheat a bit to is put it on multi shot and blast away. Even on my old NEX-5 at least one of the shots out of the 7/sec it takes will be perfectly stable.
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I had an old Nikon P&S that did this automatically -- "Best shot selector". Only, it threw away the other possibilities, and I was convinced that it didn't always pick the best one.

I did like the IS feature of my Sony DSLR, but then, it was really important to keep it at ISO 100, 200, or maybe 400. Beyond that and it was sketchy. I get probably two stops better noise performance (and higher resolution) from the Nex, so when I don't have OSS, I have that to fall back on. Plus subject movement will require actual speed, not IS. So, while I still like IS, either OSS or IBIS, it's less urgent of a need. If everything were equal, I'd prefer to have it, though. I'd also prefer an Aston Martin in my driveway, if everything were equal.
--
Gary W.
 
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