Must. Not. Buy. D800.

I have been telling myself that, but it is becoming very hard to do so, especially seeing all those shots at nicely detailed ISO 25600!

I have been using D90 for 3 years now and it is ENOUGH camera for me. I rarely print big (some photos I might someday), but I do crop a lot! Still do not have proper eye/brain to compose. My average crops are 5 to 6mp from 12mps!

Anyway, D800 would allow me to shoot FF and crop! Crop, Crop, Crop! And still have way more than I ever need! And those details!

Sorry, just feeling giddy!

At this point it comes down to money. Can you easily afford the D800 without any issues?

If so and you really want it then why not. The desire will not dissipate, likely it will only get stronger, and if you can afford it you will eventually buy it. Might as well be now so you don't regret the time you waited to upgrade

Varuas said:

I have been telling myself that, but it is becoming very hard to do so, especially seeing all those shots at nicely detailed ISO 25600!

I have been using D90 for 3 years now and it is ENOUGH camera for me. I rarely print big (some photos I might someday), but I do crop a lot! Still do not have proper eye/brain to compose. My average crops are 5 to 6mp from 12mps!

Anyway, D800 would allow me to shoot FF and crop! Crop, Crop, Crop! And still have way more than I ever need! And those details!

Sorry, just feeling giddy!

Click to expand...

Just my 2 cents, but that's not a good reason to spend $3000 on a 36mp camera.

Given you said you 'rarely print big', it sounds like you'd be better off keeping the D90 and spending money on lessons to help you compose in the camera and get the most out of 12mp.

The sensor shouldn't be the only area of consideration, since there are also other marginal improvements to AF/metering/ergo.

Also, don't listen to people who think resolution is only necessary for print size, they have no idea how optics works.

The D90 actually has remarkable resale value, so IMO if you sell it for decent money and esp already have some fx lens, it's not that much of an upgrade cost.

Varuas said:

I have been telling myself that, but it is becoming very hard to do so, especially seeing all those shots at nicely detailed ISO 25600!

I have been using D90 for 3 years now and it is ENOUGH camera for me. I rarely print big (some photos I might someday), but I do crop a lot! Still do not have proper eye/brain to compose. My average crops are 5 to 6mp from 12mps!

Anyway, D800 would allow me to shoot FF and crop! Crop, Crop, Crop! And still have way more than I ever need! And those details!

Sorry, just feeling giddy!

Click to expand...

Stick with your D90. The high resolution D800 is going to demand a lot more from both your craft and your equipment. It's going to be challenging to keep the camera steady, and only the best lenses will resolve full detail all the way to the corners.

I am planning to buy a D800E, but I am also buying a number of expensive primes to match, and am fully prepared to have the camera spend the majority of its life on top of a tripod.

I also just bought a m4/3 system for travel/street photography. It's super lightweight, easy to carry, with high quality sensors and optics. I expect to use this more than the D800.

Instead of buying the D800, you might consider waiting for the D400 or the D700 replacement likely coming next year. The D7000 is also an option, but honestly, I don't recommend it at this point as the auto-focus has back/front focusing issues.

--
Fabian

Varuas said:

I have been telling myself that, but it is becoming very hard to do so, especially seeing all those shots at nicely detailed ISO 25600!

Sorry, just feeling giddy!

Click to expand...

You realise that in DX crop mode, the D800, high iso performance is about the same as FX on a D700? This is shown in analysis of raw data, and also you can easily see about 1 stop advantage implied in the resized high ISO full frame images on display at Nikonrumors.com.

The D700 is no slouch in high ISO, so this is really quite an achievement (understatement).

It's easy to extrapolate from this that it's possible for Nikon/Sony to produce a DX camera sensor which should perform as well as the D800 in dx-crop mode - in other words as well as a D700. It should be better than the D7000 (sensor performance) by about the same margin as the D7000 is better than the D90. It should also be capable of high burst speeds which the D800 cannot do (ie the Sony NEX 7 sensor does 10 fps - actually a faster data rate drawn from the sensor than the D800 achieves.

I'd guess that if Nikon do this, then it's most likely first in a "D400". But if Nikon follow the same path as they have in the past, then a lower cost version using the same basic sensor (as the hypothetical "D400") won't be too far away. (D80 came after the D200, D90 after the D300 etc).

So, unless you're committed to the idea of FX and gaining the "extra stop" that FX will always have (all other things being equal), then waiting a bit longer might be the best thing to do right now,

Thanks for differing suggestions!

If I upgrade, which is 50-50 I will, I will not be getting any new lenses any time soon. I already have 35 1.8, so it will cover all of FF with slight vignetting, so I am fine with it being the main lens. If I need reach, I can always put on my 60mm f2 macro and crop like crazy... still get sharp images.

But I kind of agree that #3k+ is rather excessive for me to upgrade.

As an option you might want to consider is to invest in knowledge. The D800 will not make anyone a better photographer. " Crop Crop" is not always a good solution. But it is up to you to decide.

--
website: http://www.jkovacsphotography.com

Varuas said:

[...] but I do crop a lot! Still do not have proper eye/brain to compose. My average crops are 5 to 6mp from 12mps!

Click to expand...

If that is the case, you either do not have the right focal length for the job, or, as you humbly admit, you still have to improve your compositional skills.

Either way, having more megapixels is NOT the solution, but just a temporary patch, which might even be counterproductive, in that it allows you to keep being 'sloppy' instead of focussing on improving your technique.

Marco

Skytalker said:

As an option you might want to consider is to invest in knowledge. The D800 will not make anyone a better photographer. " Crop Crop" is not always a good solution. But it is up to you to decide.

--
website: http://www.jkovacsphotography.com

Click to expand...

No disagreements there.

Being a hobbyist though I learn from doing and imitating others... rather than taking formal classes. So, knowledge is at my own pace, which is slow, but I do not have to rush. All I am looking for is a tool that allows me to take pics and crop (may be less and less as I learn) while maintaining size.

Besides, my D90 is showing age and will not last more than another year or so. Shows "ERR" and "F--" constantly. Lens change fixes it though.

If you are getting ERR and [F--] I think that is related to the position of the aperture ring when you install the lens. I don't recall at which end of the scale it needs to be (small f stop or large) but it is basically not where the camera wants it and causes an error. Take the lens off and put set the aperture ring.

Its in the manual somewhere - I had the same thing a few times some years ago and feared the worst - only to discover it was nothing.

Sorry to remove one of your reasons to upgrade - - just thought it might be a help.

Adam

PS I too am resisting a D800 purchase. I have a D4 on pre-order and funds set aside for it however everytime I see a 36MP image in all its glory I think - that could be even better. Hoping that some production samples will settle the issue once and for all... What a wonderful dilemma to be in!

it's still one of the best cameras out there and the price was dropped recently.

Skytalker said:

As an option you might want to consider is to invest in knowledge. The D800 will not make anyone a better photographer. " Crop Crop" is not always a good solution. But it is up to you to decide.

--
website: http://www.jkovacsphotography.com

Click to expand...

With the multitude of display options (screens of various aspect ratios + prints) then I find already I have to crop various images to suit some aspect ratios - basically my composition causes me problems if I want to display at 16:9

With the D800 it would be possible to be more lax in framing to maximise the results in various formats - that's not being a bad photographer, that's the way it is these days - close framing is limiting now especially on 3:2

Nowt wrong in cropping if you have the pixels available to throw away without ruining too much quality

The more you crop the greater the effects of motion blur and focus errors have on your results.

This may prove disappointing to your end result because you are leaning more and more on smaller pixels to bail you out and greater angular errors.

Improving your shooting technique will be a tool that reaps better rewards for any camera and at any time. It also costs a lot less than any new camera.

It makes very little sense in my opinion to buy a FF camera without a decent set of FF lenses. The standard package would be the 24-70 and 70-200 F2.8 - which is another 4k$, totalling 7k investment for a complete package. You sure can economize a lot on the lenses, but I would say it makes no sense not to consider the cost of additional lenses at all. It's a big decision.

I think it's better to invest now in good FF lenses for your D90 and buy the D800 or D900 later when you are ready...

FWIW, I had a hard time convincing myself spending the money for the 70-200 VR (old version), and now it's one of my favorite lenses and togehter with learning to use the Nikon CLS has allowed me to take much better photos with my D300.

The D800 is ordered together with the 24-70 and accessories (5k) and I think I will have to upgrade to a MacBook Pro 15" to get better graphics processing, another 2+k.

Cheers, Surf

Varuas said:

Thanks for differing suggestions!

If I upgrade, which is 50-50 I will, I will not be getting any new lenses any time soon. I already have 35 1.8, so it will cover all of FF with slight vignetting, so I am fine with it being the main lens. If I need reach, I can always put on my 60mm f2 macro and crop like crazy... still get sharp images.

But I kind of agree that #3k+ is rather excessive for me to upgrade.

Click to expand...

Cipher said:

it's still one of the best cameras out there and the price was dropped recently.

Click to expand...

I think the D700 is looking pretty pricy compared to the D800. And the D700 price is going to drop quite a bit next year once the replacement is announcement. I would not buy a D700 today.

--
Fabian

Plenty of constructive observations have already been expressed. However I do find attitudes to cropping (quite a few expressed here) rather strange. Unless one feels that the standard aspect ratio is something that's a fixed reference value, ie every image should rightly accommodate itself to these proportions - which is a bizarre notion IMHO - then a substantial proportion of photographs are optimised by some degree of cropping. Unless of course they're all intended to fit into a standard format display medium. Try telling an experienced picture editor that cropping's usually unnecessary.

Additionally, in an uncontrolled situation such as encountered in landscape photography, (on the hoof rather than pre-planned) the ability to crop - heavily in the case of a 36MP camera - is a lot more convenient than carrying additional long f/l (and heavy) lenses. So the notion that "learning to frame/compose correctly" is a total substitute for cropping seems nonsensical to me. What sort of focal lengths would wildlife photographers need to eliminate the requirement to crop images of small birds, for example?

All the above assumes that there are enough pixels available for the intended use of the cropped image.

Roy

adamlambert said:

PS I too am resisting a D800 purchase. I have a D4 on pre-order and funds set aside for it however everytime I see a 36MP image in all its glory I think - that could be even better. Hoping that some production samples will settle the issue once and for all... What a wonderful dilemma to be in!

Click to expand...

Your confusion nicely captures the confusion many of us have about how Nikon has positioned these 2 new FX bodies. I can't help thinking at a minimum that they were supposed to have more market differentiation, which in this case may have meant more of a gap between introductions. Even that, however, would have a lot of people confused between them. I mean, on the one hand, the D4 is a MP upgrade over the popular D3 gen 12 MP products, albeit a paltry one. Then along comes 36 MP right away like that.

fabgo said:

Cipher said:

it's still one of the best cameras out there and the price was dropped recently.

Click to expand...

I think the D700 is looking pretty pricy compared to the D800. And the D700 price is going to drop quite a bit next year once the replacement is announcement. I would not buy a D700 today.

--
Fabian

Click to expand...

Used D700s keep poping up on amazon for $1400~. That's a pretty good deal, imho. Though I agree if you don't need it now wait.

I plan on getting a D800 tho.

So why not buy it if it'll make you happy? Even if this is just a hobby people spend more than 3 grand on most hobbies. Not a thing in the world wrong with that. I used to shoot a D90 years ago before upgrading to a D700 two years ago. And I can tell you with confidence the D700 is a machine it feels a million miles more like a piece of professional equipment and it has obvious technological advances. The D800 on the other hand is even more advanced. There is no way you wouldn't like it. But you need to make sure you practice good technique, however do not believe people saying it must stay on a tripod - that is complete rubbish. You do have to be aware of your shutter speed and focal length.
Mine's is on order!

Varuas said:

I have been telling myself that, but it is becoming very hard to do so, especially seeing all those shots at nicely detailed ISO 25600!

I have been using D90 for 3 years now and it is ENOUGH camera for me. I rarely print big (some photos I might someday), but I do crop a lot! Still do not have proper eye/brain to compose. My average crops are 5 to 6mp from 12mps!

Anyway, D800 would allow me to shoot FF and crop! Crop, Crop, Crop! And still have way more than I ever need! And those details!

Sorry, just feeling giddy!

Click to expand...

--
"I come to this forum because it sucks less than the others."