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About to throw my E20 against a wall!

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I certainly don't have a problem with anyone using P mode (apart from myself). The problem I see with new photographers is that they might get stuck on using Program mode, not learning the essentials. I think it would be a shame for someone just starting to only be painting with pre mixed paint instead of learning how to mix all of the colors themselves so to speak ;-)
Cleave said:
Brian and Rejuvesite,

I find that P mode works pretty well when in good light, however, I
learned from others on this forum that when using flash, put it in
S mode and set the shutter to 1/125 or faster.

With respect to any mode, you can see what the camera is doing
(shutter speed and f-stop) in the viewfinder. If you see that the
shutter speed is too slow for handheld, then you need to make
adjustments.

What I really miss is a matched needle type of exposure meter as it
allowed me to make finer adjustments than just 1/3 EV increments.
Oh for the good old days... ;-)

What I've learned is for general outddor shooting: P mode; for
flash: S mode; for sports: S mode; and for macro or portraits: A
mode. Of course others will disagree with me, but that's OK. :-)
--
Thanks.

Cleave
Click to expand...
 
Alll,

I am ashamed to say that I too have found that P mode works acceptably. Now I promise to say 10 hail f-stops tonight as punishment but I would like to get any ideas on what went wrong with the first set. My understanding was that with the flash raised you couldn't set an exposure under 1/30. Is there a way around this? Is P really so unreliable that this rule could be randomly broken? Is this tied to any known firware problems?

Rejuvesite,

If you want to learn how to use your camera my recomendation is to take your camera out for a full day and only use full manual. Practice with both spot and center weighted metering. Just stick it out and force yourself to take a full set of pictures with full manual exposure control. You'll need to do a little reseach on f-stop, exposure time and film speed relationships.

After you do this spend another set on just A and then another on S. You will find quickly that your camera doesn't have these settings just to give you more options but that you really need each under some circumstances. As for books, I highly recomend The Camera by Ansel Adams. It may be horribly outdated but I have found his series to be educational and inspirational.
Cleave said:
Brian and Rejuvesite,

I find that P mode works pretty well when in good light, however, I
learned from others on this forum that when using flash, put it in
S mode and set the shutter to 1/125 or faster.

With respect to any mode, you can see what the camera is doing
(shutter speed and f-stop) in the viewfinder. If you see that the
shutter speed is too slow for handheld, then you need to make
adjustments.

What I really miss is a matched needle type of exposure meter as it
allowed me to make finer adjustments than just 1/3 EV increments.
Oh for the good old days... ;-)

What I've learned is for general outddor shooting: P mode; for
flash: S mode; for sports: S mode; and for macro or portraits: A
mode. Of course others will disagree with me, but that's OK. :-)
--
Thanks.

Cleave
Click to expand...
 
Well, like I said I certainly don't have a problem with anyone using P mode! Go for it! (even if I did, it wouldn't matter much ;-) For me it seems quite unpredictable and even IF it was predictable I would not use it, that would defeat my whole reason for using an SLR camera in the first place.

I don't think there are any bugs in the firmware, the camera just doesn't have a human brain (or eyes) and there is alot more to good pictures than computing 0's and 1's. Lately I've been using full manual when flashes are used, that has given me the best results.
 
I bought my 1st digital camera last summer, I now have an almost completed E-20 system. I've learned a great deal from this forum and from the URLs that people put up.

I shoot only Manual or Auto. Someone once said, NEVER EVER shoot program mode and I listened. I use manual to experiment, to learn from the differences. I take pictures of the same exact thing, changing the settings a little here and a little there, or maybe a lot. I'm just interested in why this does that and how come that does this.

Recently, because of my experiments, I learned of ghosting. I've taken pictures of people & pets and I am able to see right through them. It's really a fun time, because I'm learning photography. But that's the difference. You might recommend an E-20 to someone that asks you good questions, but the average point-n-shoot person will be better off with a C-5050. It's cheaper, has easier control (because it doesn't have much control in comparison, and it has a good depth of field for landscapes.
Gillis Danielsen said:
I know saying this isnt really nice but, rhis is why i never
recommend an over 1000$ camera to someone who doesent know what
their doing, i mean its the photographer who takes the picture the
camera is only hes tool. Ive seen plenty nice oly e-series
pictures, maybe youve got a faulty camera or something?
Click to expand...
--
If a picture paints a 1,000 words, how come mine only make 3?
 
Zephalephelah said:
... but the average point-n-shoot person will
be better off with a C-5050. It's cheaper, has easier control
(because it doesn't have much control in comparison, and it has a
good depth of field for landscapes.
Click to expand...
Well, the C5050 lacks manual zoom, the zoom range is smaller, you cannot put on filters unless you get the extension tube, and you are correct in saying it cannot produce a shallow depth of field. But other than the above, I think the C-5050 has just as much control as the E-20 and even some that E-20 does not have, such as color saturation and white balance fine-tuning.

--
Tony
 
The E-20 is indeed a light hungry animal.

There might be more features on a 5050, but not as much control. I doubt the 5050 can do 1/18,000 shutter speed or that it has as many f-stops. That is what I mean by control, not controls of features, but the degree of control you have over the cameras abilities.
Tony T C Lau said:
Zephalephelah said:
... but the average point-n-shoot person will
be better off with a C-5050. It's cheaper, has easier control
(because it doesn't have much control in comparison, and it has a
good depth of field for landscapes.
Click to expand...
Well, the C5050 lacks manual zoom, the zoom range is smaller, you
cannot put on filters unless you get the extension tube, and you
are correct in saying it cannot produce a shallow depth of field.
But other than the above, I think the C-5050 has just as much
control as the E-20 and even some that E-20 does not have, such as
color saturation and white balance fine-tuning.

--
Tony
Click to expand...
--
If a picture paints a 1,000 words, how come mine only make 3?
 
Actually this is my poin precicely, i think the thread starter is not interested in photographing as a hobby, but more as of "taking pictures of things and people"
 
I think the difference is not in what options you have to control but in how easy it is to control. Everything on the e-10/20 is at your finger tips and it can be adjusted without thinking. I haven't used the 5050, but I have earlier cameras in the series. Manual focusing wasn't easy. Neither was manual exposure. The camera worked best as a P&S camera, not a fully manual camera. In my opinion the E-10/20 needs at least some manual control and works best as a fully manual camera.
Tony T C Lau said:
Zephalephelah said:
... but the average point-n-shoot person will
be better off with a C-5050. It's cheaper, has easier control
(because it doesn't have much control in comparison, and it has a
good depth of field for landscapes.
Click to expand...
Well, the C5050 lacks manual zoom, the zoom range is smaller, you
cannot put on filters unless you get the extension tube, and you
are correct in saying it cannot produce a shallow depth of field.
But other than the above, I think the C-5050 has just as much
control as the E-20 and even some that E-20 does not have, such as
color saturation and white balance fine-tuning.

--
Tony
Click to expand...
 
I'm just going to add a quick thought. I have a 2020 and notice it is a great low light camera. I think there are a few reasons for this.

The lens is so small that there is a huge dof so you don't have as many low light focus problems - everything is in focus.

I get almost no camera shake from my 2020. I think that the larger size of the E-10/20 magnifies camera shake a little more than the small 2020 - a small shake might move the 2020 1/10 of a degree while the same shake may change the e-10 1/2 a degree (NOT actual figures! I just want to explain what I meant by my last statement).

It might even be that 20% more light the sensor gets so it can use shorter shutter speeds.

I don't know, but it is very easy to get good low light shots with the 2020 while the e-10/20, though capable of even better shots, takes a little more work.
 
Rejuvesite,

I too just entered my first Christmas season with a new E-10 and was fearful I might mess up shots never to be retaken. I carried along my point and shoot Canon PowerShot 300 as a back up camera. With fast moving children running around the house I did not want to take a chance with manual controls so I used the P setting with flash. Frankly, I was surprised how well the pictures turned out. Over the past few days I shot nearly 200 pictures and I have at least 10 that are real keepers. Keepers in the sense that family will enjoy them in the future.

Last evening I sat down and compared my PowerShot 300 photos from 2001 with the Olympus E-10 photos from 2002 and there is no comparison. The E-10 are much superior, both in quality and color composition.

I'm still working through the E-10 manual and Ben Long's "Complete Digital Photography" book. I'm also ramping up on how to use PhotoShop Elements 2 with Gregory Georges book, "50 Fast Digital Photo Techniques." I consider the Georges and Long books to be a must for anyone interested in digital photography. I'm also spending time learning "Curves" with my PhotoShop Version 5.0.

I still have lots to learn so I can move off the P setting but that will come later as I learn how to use the E-10. I'm only into digital photography a little over a year so I still have lots to learn just to reach amature status, but it is great fun. My hobby is to take my slides and put together a presentation, with music, around a theme such as Christmas, Thanksgiving, vacation, art, etc.

Practice and experimentation is how I learn. Also, I pick up lots of hints from this list. Let the pros keep the useful hints coming.

Lowell
 
Hi, I am anxious to learn too. My E20 is only 1 month old. I have already overcome a lot of hurdles, but still have trouble inside. I am having trouble accessing your URL? Any ideas?
rejuvesite said:
OK, after having over night to calm down, here's my problem...

I've had my E20n since July. The thing's done fine outside in
plenty of light. But when I'm inside in lowlight, it's a whole
different ballgame. The last straw was last night getting ready to
open presents. I point the camera at my Mom by the fire and the
picture's all blurry. I point the camera at my Dad with a reading
light behind him, and he's as dark as can be.. but the reading
light is nice and bright. Then I take a picture of Grandma in the
kitchen with all the lights on. The shutter was open FOREVER!

I know everyone's going to tell me "well you have to adjust the
settings." Then why did my cheap ol' C2020z take perfect pictures
all evening in all different settings!?!?!?!?!?!

The only time's I've ever gotten a satisfactory picture with this
thing is when I'm out in complete daylight taking pictures of
things that aren't moving.

Now, I'm sure there's someone just ready to spout their
intelligence over me and chew me out telling me I should'nt've
bought an E20 and not being prepared for it. If you're that type,
kindly click the Back button.

However if you're a nice person who's willing to help out an
armature, please assist! : -)

I know an E20's a professional camera. I knew it when I bought it.
But having to readjust and have a darn tripod for every picture I
wanna take is ridiculous.

Thanks
Click to expand...
 
TrentMcD said:
I get almost no camera shake from my 2020. I think that the larger
size of the E-10/20 magnifies camera shake a little more than the
small 2020 -
Click to expand...
This is contrary to most experience (including my own)--unless you're shooting with the camera held in your outstretched hand(s). The "outstretched hands" shooting style is common for many beginners, and it may be the reason that the lighter 2020 produces less "shaking blur". But when a camera is used normally (held firmly against the head) a heavier camera tends to reduce (dampen) the shake. Ask Newton.
Phil
 
Phil Rose said:
TrentMcD said:
I get almost no camera shake from my 2020. I think that the larger
size of the E-10/20 magnifies camera shake a little more than the
small 2020 -
Click to expand...
This is contrary to most experience (including my own)--unless
you're shooting with the camera held in your outstretched hand(s).
The "outstretched hands" shooting style is common for many
beginners, and it may be the reason that the lighter 2020 produces
less "shaking blur". But when a camera is used normally (held
firmly against the head) a heavier camera tends to reduce (dampen)
the shake. Ask Newton.
Phil
Click to expand...
I wasn't talking weight but length.

Actually, my assumption was wrong for different reasons. I was thinking that if the sensor were farther from the pivot point, the same amount of rotation would cause it to change more. I was right that the sensor would move farther, but I was wrong that the effect would be increased: it would still move through the same portion of the field of view and have identical results.

I hold my 2020 in front of me because it is impossible to compose a picture with it unless you use the LCD. I hold the E-10 against my face. I have to be much more careful when I use the E-10. If I concentrate I can get 1/2 second shots hand held pretty consistently, but I have to concentrate. With the 2020 I can get the same shot without thinking.

Here is an e-10 shot, hand held at 1/2 second:

 
I have an Olympus E10 and I have experienced the same problem, but it was my fault for blocking the focusing sensor. I do not know if that is your problem, but I have had no other difficulties with the E10. It is my understanding that the first run of the E10 and E20 models were lemons. I purchased my E10 one year after its debut. I have heard other complaints about the E20. You might try sending it back to Olympus. They are very responsive to customer complaints. I have owned other Olympus digital cameras and I have never experienced any problems with them.
 
A further look seems to reveal that you have the white-balance setting at 3700, which is not optimal when using a flash. I can't figure out what mode the flash was in (I get value 0 from the MakerNote, which I don't know what it means), but anyway, if you want to use a flash, set White Balance to auto (usually bad) or manually to 6500, or thereabouts (which means it's in my experience right in 99 % of the cases where I use a flash, but I'm no expert in anyway, so who knows. This was mostly a try-and-fail affair).

Karlsson
Anders Karlsson said:
Basically, at this low resolution, you are not going to get the
best performance from your camera.

The above was picked up by using my own "EXIF Viewer" on the
downloaded image. Give it a try to look at the EXIF data in your
images, it's free software. Download from http://www.papablues.com
and then click on "Software".

EXIF Data is part of the JPEG and TIFF image of just about any
current digital camera, and contains information about how the
image was shot, about the camera, the time and date etc. etc. There
is both generic as well as manufacturer specific information in the
EXIF part of the image, currently my "EXIF Viewer" only shows the
generic stuff...

Cheers
Karlsson
rejuvesite said:
I usually take pictures in the Program setting
I keep the ISO at Auto
I do not know how to read EXIF data. Is that the bar chart thing?

Here are a few samples...
http://www.rejuvesite.com/e20samples/

I know this is a high-end camera and needs some special
configuration. But I had no idea I'd have to go through this much
bologna for every picture. I don't understand why when comsumer
rigs take fine pictures without all the configuration.

If there's something in the manual you can point me to I'll reread
it and try to grasp it.

And Phil, I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I've read enough
posts on enough message boards to know when to cover my bases to
prepare for the replies of the few people who enjoy schooling
people the hard way.
Walt Palmer said:
Seriously though, we would need to know a bit more about how you're
setting the camera to take pictures. Could you give us some more
details? Do you have the camera on the (P)rogram setting? Do you
know what ISO you have it set on? Can you upload a couple of sample
shots we could reference? Do you know how to look at the EXIF data
for the pictures - if so, you could give us that information as
well.

I've seen several posts about holding the E-xx cameras steady, it
seems to be an adjustment that just takes a little time and
practice - the camera is superbly balanced, but different from most
consumer-type cameras.

If you are shooting in backlit situations (like you described) or
very contrast situations (like you described), I find the spot
meter to be essential. You can change to spot metering by pressing
the button to the left of the flash, the topmost one, and rotating
the command dial until it shows [.] on the top LCD. Now center the
frame on your subject's face, half-press and hold while you
recompose the shot before squeezing the shutter trigger.

Also, don't try using the read LCD to compose your shots - that
method is notoriously unstable and you'll get lots of camera shake.

Hope that helps.
rejuvesite said:
OK, after having over night to calm down, here's my problem...

I've had my E20n since July. The thing's done fine outside in
plenty of light. But when I'm inside in lowlight, it's a whole
different ballgame. The last straw was last night getting ready to
open presents. I point the camera at my Mom by the fire and the
picture's all blurry. I point the camera at my Dad with a reading
light behind him, and he's as dark as can be.. but the reading
light is nice and bright. Then I take a picture of Grandma in the
kitchen with all the lights on. The shutter was open FOREVER!

I know everyone's going to tell me "well you have to adjust the
settings." Then why did my cheap ol' C2020z take perfect pictures
all evening in all different settings!?!?!?!?!?!

The only time's I've ever gotten a satisfactory picture with this
thing is when I'm out in complete daylight taking pictures of
things that aren't moving.

Now, I'm sure there's someone just ready to spout their
intelligence over me and chew me out telling me I should'nt've
bought an E20 and not being prepared for it. If you're that type,
kindly click the Back button.

However if you're a nice person who's willing to help out an
armature, please assist! : -)

I know an E20's a professional camera. I knew it when I bought it.
But having to readjust and have a darn tripod for every picture I
wanna take is ridiculous.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
TrentMcD said:
Phil Rose said:
TrentMcD said:
I get almost no camera shake from my 2020. I think that the larger
size of the E-10/20 magnifies camera shake a little more than the
small 2020 -
Click to expand...
This is contrary to most experience (including my own)--unless
you're shooting with the camera held in your outstretched hand(s).
The "outstretched hands" shooting style is common for many
beginners, and it may be the reason that the lighter 2020 produces
less "shaking blur". But when a camera is used normally (held
firmly against the head) a heavier camera tends to reduce (dampen)
the shake. Ask Newton.
Phil
Click to expand...
I wasn't talking weight but length.

Actually, my assumption was wrong for different reasons. I was
thinking that if the sensor were farther from the pivot point, the
same amount of rotation would cause it to change more. I was right
that the sensor would move farther, but I was wrong that the effect
would be increased: it would still move through the same portion of
the field of view and have identical results.

I hold my 2020 in front of me because it is impossible to compose a
picture with it unless you use the LCD. I hold the E-10 against my
face. I have to be much more careful when I use the E-10. If I
concentrate I can get 1/2 second shots hand held pretty
consistently, but I have to concentrate. With the 2020 I can get
the same shot without thinking.

Here is an e-10 shot, hand held at 1/2 second:

Click to expand...
Nice picture, but, ohhhh, that chromatic aberration!
Ken
 
rejuvesite: I have read through everyone's comments and they seem to have you on the right track. I use all the modes in the camera and I have no problem with P mode. That may be due to experience in that I know what to expect so I prepare for it. I do know that the manual states that digital cameras need a straight line in order to focus. This is even more critical in low light. I usually look for an object with a straight line-or at least a definite line that the focus sensor can see-make sure it is the same distance as the subject, focus and hold the focus and move the camera to the subject and shoot. But....even with a flash, in P mode, there will be blur if someone moves during the shot. Have you ever fired a rifle. You squeeze the trigger not the rifle. Same with the camera: Squeeze the shutter button and not the camera. I use an E10 and I have used the other Olympus models and I have been satisfied with all of them. GC
 
This is such great advese. this is not your point and what ever
Jason Stoller said:
The E-10 and E-20 are wonderful cameras so please take the time to
learn your camera. Patience is a must. Do not expect to get
things right the first time you attempt them. Keep in mind, even
the most experienced photographers do not capture perfect images
every time. That is why Photoshop and other programs like it exist.

Jason
rejuvesite said:
Thanks again guys,
Dan
danny de dios said:
No offence intended but what I think you need is a basic course in
SLR photography to get the most out of this camera. Plus you'll
also learn what all those manual settings are all about. You have a
very good camera and you just need sometime to learn it.

danny
rejuvesite said:
It's perfect! Only thing different is there's no fire behind her
tonight. Now, how'd this work? I've read page 83 in the manual and
it sorta makes sense.

Thanks Ernie.
Ernie T. said:
rejuvesite said:
Thanks Walt. Here's some info...

I usually take pictures in the Program setting
I keep the ISO at Auto
I do not know how to read EXIF data. Is that the bar chart thing?

Here are a few samples...
http://www.rejuvesite.com/e20samples/

I know this is a high-end camera and needs some special
configuration. But I had no idea I'd have to go through this much
bologna for every picture. I don't understand why when comsumer
rigs take fine pictures without all the configuration.

If there's something in the manual you can point me to I'll reread
it and try to grasp it.

And Phil, I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I've read enough
posts on enough message boards to know when to cover my bases to
prepare for the replies of the few people who enjoy schooling
people the hard way.

Walt Palmer wrote:
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Jason Stoller [email protected]
We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their
new products!
Click to expand...
 
rejuvesite said:
I know, I didn't expect this thing to be a point-and-shoot like my
C2020 was. I just didn't expect THIS amount of tinkering. But with
anything complicated, once I get the hang of the controls and what
I need to do for each situation, it'll be easy.

Thanks!
Jason Stoller said:
The E-10 and E-20 are wonderful cameras so please take the time to
learn your camera. Patience is a must. Do not expect to get
things right the first time you attempt them. Keep in mind, even
the most experienced photographers do not capture perfect images
every time. That is why Photoshop and other programs like it exist.

Jason
rejuvesite said:
Thanks again guys,
Dan
danny de dios said:
No offence intended but what I think you need is a basic course in
SLR photography to get the most out of this camera. Plus you'll
also learn what all those manual settings are all about. You have a
very good camera and you just need sometime to learn it.

danny
rejuvesite said:
It's perfect! Only thing different is there's no fire behind her
tonight. Now, how'd this work? I've read page 83 in the manual and
it sorta makes sense.

Thanks Ernie.
Ernie T. said:
rejuvesite said:
Thanks Walt. Here's some info...

I usually take pictures in the Program setting
I keep the ISO at Auto
I do not know how to read EXIF data. Is that the bar chart thing?

Here are a few samples...
http://www.rejuvesite.com/e20samples/

I know this is a high-end camera and needs some special
configuration. But I had no idea I'd have to go through this much
bologna for every picture. I don't understand why when comsumer
rigs take fine pictures without all the configuration.

If there's something in the manual you can point me to I'll reread
it and try to grasp it.

And Phil, I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I've read enough
posts on enough message boards to know when to cover my bases to
prepare for the replies of the few people who enjoy schooling
people the hard way.

Walt Palmer wrote:
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Jason Stoller [email protected]
We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their
new products!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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