1D or wait til PMA?

Newk said:

I had to chuckle a little when you asked if it was hard to
hand-hold a heavy camera like the 1D. To me it isn't at all... but
then I recalled my wife telling me she'd have hard time holding it
steady enough to take photo. Her last "heavy" camera was a Nikon FE
with a power drive. The EOS-1D is substancially heavier.

As 35mm cameras go, it IS a monster. It's not a lot different than
any other EOS-1 with a booster drive/grip on it, but it is a whole
lot different than an Oly-10.

I showed my wife the PROPER way to hold the camera, and I don't
think she'd have any problems with it, and I doubt you would
either. But with a zoom lens on it, it could be something you'd get
tired of carrying around all day.

That said, if you find a refurbished 1D for under $3,000, I don't
think you could go far wrong with it. It's a marvelous camera.

The D60 is very nice too. I have both, and the images from the D60
can be every bit as good as those from the 1D -- with post
processing. (The 1D has more controls for getting the image closer
to "right" in the camera, such as color temp control, saturation
control, etc.)

And something else you might consider is a used D30. I see them
selling for $1,000, and that's something that would give you more
of what you're looking for; you could start building your lens and
flash arsenal; and you could get used to shooting with a
full-system dSLR while you wait for that "just right" dSLR.

Click to expand...

Duane Kilby said:

Beth,

Having made the transition myself from the E-10 to the Canon world
recently, I understand your concerns. Despite what they say over
inthe OLY-SLR forum, Even the D30 is a considerable upgrade from
the E-10/20 mainly for the reasons you suggest, ISO range, Noise
and buffer speed. Even with the smaller file size of the D30, the
image is much easier to enlarge due to the substantially "cleaner"
image. The ISO 800 of the D30/60 is less noisy than the E10's 160,
and with the D's the wait is gone.......

I chose to get into the Canon system slowly, opting for the D30 and
the 28-135 IS lens. I pick up the pair for $1,500 with the BG-ED
battery pack, 4 batteries and a 256Meg card from ebay. This combo
will retain a lot of it's value for a year or two, while anything
new will be worth half (or less) the current cost in the same time
frame. I think (just as Nikon has done,) Canon will start making
glass specifically for their digital cameras, reducing the price
for good glass.

The D30/BG-ED 28-135 combo is heaver than the E-10 with the Lipo,
but I really haven't noticed. But, this lens is not an L series,
and L glass is substantially heaver.

What you will miss most about the move is great glass. To equal the
Oly lens on the E-10 you'll want "L" series lenses, and I'm sure
you already know what any of those will cost you.
You'll also miss the point and shoot ability of the E-10,
especially with the FL-40 flash. I rarely messed up a flash shot
with the FL-40, but the flexibility of the 420 and 550 EX series of
flashes takes a bit to master. You'll get better shots, but you'll
have to work a little harder to get it right.

If I had your talent (I've been admiring your work for some time
now.....) I'd pick up a few paying gigs with your E-10, saving up
for a few months. I'd then go out and borrow or rent the cameras
with good lenses you are interested in, and try them out. You wont
regret the few buck spent making a good decision. I also recommend
my method. I still have my E-10, and am happily exploring the
new/different world my D30 has opened up, knowing this is just a
step on the ladder.

Keep shooting,
Duane

Click to expand...

Beth said:

Actually, I may be making some money using the E10 which will go
into the "New Camera piggy bank." I hope to be able to purchase the
next body and a couple of lenses and will add more as possible. PMA
is very exciting this year! I feel like a kid waiting for the
winter holidays! Hope I'm not disappointed.

Beth

Duane Kilby said:

Beth,

Having made the transition myself from the E-10 to the Canon world
recently, I understand your concerns. Despite what they say over
inthe OLY-SLR forum, Even the D30 is a considerable upgrade from
the E-10/20 mainly for the reasons you suggest, ISO range, Noise
and buffer speed. Even with the smaller file size of the D30, the
image is much easier to enlarge due to the substantially "cleaner"
image. The ISO 800 of the D30/60 is less noisy than the E10's 160,
and with the D's the wait is gone.......

I chose to get into the Canon system slowly, opting for the D30 and
the 28-135 IS lens. I pick up the pair for $1,500 with the BG-ED
battery pack, 4 batteries and a 256Meg card from ebay. This combo
will retain a lot of it's value for a year or two, while anything
new will be worth half (or less) the current cost in the same time
frame. I think (just as Nikon has done,) Canon will start making
glass specifically for their digital cameras, reducing the price
for good glass.

The D30/BG-ED 28-135 combo is heaver than the E-10 with the Lipo,
but I really haven't noticed. But, this lens is not an L series,
and L glass is substantially heaver.

What you will miss most about the move is great glass. To equal the
Oly lens on the E-10 you'll want "L" series lenses, and I'm sure
you already know what any of those will cost you.
You'll also miss the point and shoot ability of the E-10,
especially with the FL-40 flash. I rarely messed up a flash shot
with the FL-40, but the flexibility of the 420 and 550 EX series of
flashes takes a bit to master. You'll get better shots, but you'll
have to work a little harder to get it right.

If I had your talent (I've been admiring your work for some time
now.....) I'd pick up a few paying gigs with your E-10, saving up
for a few months. I'd then go out and borrow or rent the cameras
with good lenses you are interested in, and try them out. You wont
regret the few buck spent making a good decision. I also recommend
my method. I still have my E-10, and am happily exploring the
new/different world my D30 has opened up, knowing this is just a
step on the ladder.

Keep shooting,
Duane

Click to expand...

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

Beth said:

Beth wrote:

I have been an Oly E10 shooter for a year and a half now. Though
it's a fine camera for the dollars, I think I have outgrown it. I
am tired of missing shots as it powers up. I'm tired of losing
shots to poor focusing in low light (partly my problem possibly).
I'm tired of limited usable ISO (ISO 80 is the best and most often
used/ISO 160 in a pinch). I'm tired of struggling with noise. This
camera CAN produce a images almost as nice as a D30's with lots of
work! I'm tired of losing shots as the buffer clears after 4 shots!
I'd like to be able to enlarge some of my photos to 20x30--well, at
least 13x19!

So, now what? Well, I thought I'd wait til after PMA to see what's
new. Then I read a 1D review. Wow! sounds like a super camera that
would solve all the problems I cataloged above. (I would think of
the D60, but I understand it suffers from similar low light focus
problems.)

I know that the 1D can do everything I need, but the question is,
can I carry around the extra weight? Will I need to take most of my
photos from a tripod? I'm told that a big camera like this is
almost impossible to handhold. Is that true? I'm used to taking my
camera EVERYWHERE with me and around my neck most of the time. Will
I develop wrestler's neck after a few weeks with a 1D? How large
will I comfortably be able to enlarge well-exposed, sharp photos?
This is important and the main impetus for the upgrade. I need to
be able to produce large prints from time to time. I like the fact
that this is a tank of a camera with seals to protect from moisture
too.

Where might I pick up a refurb? Anyone here dealt with refurbished
cameras? I'm still not sure it's the camera for me, but expect that
your answers will help me decide.

If you'd like to see my typical shooting style, please feel free to
visit my galleries (see url below).

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

laupi said:

Beth said:

Actually, I may be making some money using the E10 which will go
into the "New Camera piggy bank." I hope to be able to purchase the
next body and a couple of lenses and will add more as possible. PMA
is very exciting this year! I feel like a kid waiting for the
winter holidays! Hope I'm not disappointed.

Beth

Duane Kilby said:

Beth,

Having made the transition myself from the E-10 to the Canon world
recently, I understand your concerns. Despite what they say over
inthe OLY-SLR forum, Even the D30 is a considerable upgrade from
the E-10/20 mainly for the reasons you suggest, ISO range, Noise
and buffer speed. Even with the smaller file size of the D30, the
image is much easier to enlarge due to the substantially "cleaner"
image. The ISO 800 of the D30/60 is less noisy than the E10's 160,
and with the D's the wait is gone.......

I chose to get into the Canon system slowly, opting for the D30 and
the 28-135 IS lens. I pick up the pair for $1,500 with the BG-ED
battery pack, 4 batteries and a 256Meg card from ebay. This combo
will retain a lot of it's value for a year or two, while anything
new will be worth half (or less) the current cost in the same time
frame. I think (just as Nikon has done,) Canon will start making
glass specifically for their digital cameras, reducing the price
for good glass.

The D30/BG-ED 28-135 combo is heaver than the E-10 with the Lipo,
but I really haven't noticed. But, this lens is not an L series,
and L glass is substantially heaver.

What you will miss most about the move is great glass. To equal the
Oly lens on the E-10 you'll want "L" series lenses, and I'm sure
you already know what any of those will cost you.
You'll also miss the point and shoot ability of the E-10,
especially with the FL-40 flash. I rarely messed up a flash shot
with the FL-40, but the flexibility of the 420 and 550 EX series of
flashes takes a bit to master. You'll get better shots, but you'll
have to work a little harder to get it right.

If I had your talent (I've been admiring your work for some time
now.....) I'd pick up a few paying gigs with your E-10, saving up
for a few months. I'd then go out and borrow or rent the cameras
with good lenses you are interested in, and try them out. You wont
regret the few buck spent making a good decision. I also recommend
my method. I still have my E-10, and am happily exploring the
new/different world my D30 has opened up, knowing this is just a
step on the ladder.

Keep shooting,
Duane

Click to expand...

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jason Stoller said:

Jason

Beth said:

Beth wrote:

I have been an Oly E10 shooter for a year and a half now. Though
it's a fine camera for the dollars, I think I have outgrown it. I
am tired of missing shots as it powers up. I'm tired of losing
shots to poor focusing in low light (partly my problem possibly).
I'm tired of limited usable ISO (ISO 80 is the best and most often
used/ISO 160 in a pinch). I'm tired of struggling with noise. This
camera CAN produce a images almost as nice as a D30's with lots of
work! I'm tired of losing shots as the buffer clears after 4 shots!
I'd like to be able to enlarge some of my photos to 20x30--well, at
least 13x19!

So, now what? Well, I thought I'd wait til after PMA to see what's
new. Then I read a 1D review. Wow! sounds like a super camera that
would solve all the problems I cataloged above. (I would think of
the D60, but I understand it suffers from similar low light focus
problems.)

I know that the 1D can do everything I need, but the question is,
can I carry around the extra weight? Will I need to take most of my
photos from a tripod? I'm told that a big camera like this is
almost impossible to handhold. Is that true? I'm used to taking my
camera EVERYWHERE with me and around my neck most of the time. Will
I develop wrestler's neck after a few weeks with a 1D? How large
will I comfortably be able to enlarge well-exposed, sharp photos?
This is important and the main impetus for the upgrade. I need to
be able to produce large prints from time to time. I like the fact
that this is a tank of a camera with seals to protect from moisture
too.

Where might I pick up a refurb? Anyone here dealt with refurbished
cameras? I'm still not sure it's the camera for me, but expect that
your answers will help me decide.

If you'd like to see my typical shooting style, please feel free to
visit my galleries (see url below).

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

--
Jason Stoller [email protected]
We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their
new products!

Click to expand...

Beth said:

I will keep eyes peeled for a refurb and if I get lucky, MAY not
wait for PMA. Getting lucky will be the key.
Beth

Robert Burkhalter said:

Beth,
first let me say thanks for the invite to look at your gallery. I
took one look at the shot of the chess set at the museum. It took
my breath away. Marvelous.

I would say get the 1D and experience it in all its wonderfulness
and then use it to be your reference for the next step. That is,
wait till you find something better. It might be a long wait.

As for how heavy it is, I was concerned about that too. After
visiiting my local camera shop several times, once a week, over a
period of two months, and spending at least 20 minutes playing with
the 1D each time, I noticed something -- each time I held it, it
seemed smaller and lighter. So, my guess is you too can become
accumstomed to its weight. I think a nice heavy like the 1D
actually hand holds better than a light camera. It takes more
twitching to move such a large mass.

By the way, the thing that most impressed me about the 1D is its
responsiveness. I shoot the D30, and the 1D gets off a shot so
quickly (by comparison) it's uncanny. I thought the D30 was
adequate until I started playing with the 1D. I cannot tell you
how many times I have filled the D30's buffer and THEN wanted to
shoot once more because what I saw in the viewfinder was that
fleeting moment -- and all I was able to do was just watch because
the D30 was busy. When I was playing with the 1D, I couldn't seem
to fill the buffer. It's definitely a good step up from what
you've got (and from what I've got).

And I'm curious to see what your pics will look like with it.

I hope this helps.

Bob

Click to expand...

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

Z (is real) said:

Two comments:

1) The 1D autofocus is incredibly good, but still quite fallible in
"low light." See the threads about "front focusing" for example. (I
have handled the camera, and the 1Ds. They totally rock, but don't
expect it to always get a focus lock. The world just doesn't work
that way.) Focus is also a somewhat different issue with larger
sensor cameras as the depth of field is less. (Which means you can
use shallow depth of field as a technique, which is difficult to do
on smaller sensor cameras.)

(I'll add here that focus is somewhat a matter of technique. I have
a friend who does a lot of concert shooting with a D30, often in
manual focus mode. She produces excellent results both in manual
and auto. It sounds like you've used the D30 and know its
capabilities. If not you should. The 1D/1Ds autofocus is a fair bit
better, but not perfect by any means.)

2) The 1D does not strike me as a "carry it all the time, anywhere"
kind of camera at all. It is fiarly sizeable and heavy. You'll want
an extra lens or two as well. Maybe a batter pack and a flash.
Basically, you'll be carrying at least a small camera bag. Add to
that the expense of all this equipment and you might feel a little
uneasy about it. (Or you might not. Depends on who you are.)

3) In terms of "hired to shoot something" use, a good tripod and
lighting setup might be a more profitable investment than the 1D.
Unless you are shooting sports or weddings.

4) Definitely keep your eye in the 4/3rds effort. For the smaller
carry it all the time type cameras, this is likely the most
promising vaporware.

-Z-

Click to expand...

Andy Meng said:

Lots of comments in here saying wait. Prices will drop. But when
PMA happens and you see your target camera, you're faced with the
same. Wait a little while and prices will drop, and just around
the corner is (fill in the blank).

go to http://www.samys.com and be ready to pay 2500 for your camera
refurb. You will have to get on a wait list.

I just stepped up from the D30 to the 1D, and it's nothing short of
amazing. focus is stunning and dead on. As someone else stated,
if you have it in 1 shot mode, you will have trouble filling the
buffer, image quality is superb. Solid as a tank. My only
reservation for you - it is in fact a heavy camera, particularly
when you put a 70-200 on it (Canon of course). I think it holds
like a dream, but I'm a big guy. You gotta make that call.

Below is a sample image that I worked up for another post. It was
talking about how the 1Ds doesn't have enough resolution compared
to film/MF, etc. I don't understand where people are coming from
on this resolution stuff to be honest. This photo is shot in high
jpg mode, not even RAW. I don't see a need for RAW with results
like this. It's also a randomly selected image, not even the best
of the shoot, just random. It's straight out of the camera on the
main image. No PS except downsize and copyright. No color, no
sharpening, no anything. The inset was upsized using
http://www.fredmiranda.com Stair Interpolator (SI) action to 20x30@300dpi
(actually using the action for the D30, so not the optimal tool),
then I cropped in on the head just to demonstrate the resolution
and detail available.

The 8x10 print looks perfectly usable as well as what you see for
web display. So how much more do you need? I'm looking at 20x30
easily, with larger certainly possible if everything else done
right in the exposure.

Full frame



crop of head and shoulders:



Remember, random image selection, I may have a better image, but
delivered it to the customer and they are very happy. Haven't done
my own review yet. No sharpening or color management - NONE.

Again, how much do you need. Just my humble opinion, but too many
purists out there that can only look at numbers, and won't ever be
happy. They'll complain about the detail in that 100mp camera and
tell you to wait for the 150mp.

Anyone want to comment on image degradation, please feel free to
either e-mail me, reply here, or if the thread is getting too long,
break to a new thread.

Andy

Beth said:

I will keep eyes peeled for a refurb and if I get lucky, MAY not
wait for PMA. Getting lucky will be the key.
Beth

Robert Burkhalter said:

Beth,
first let me say thanks for the invite to look at your gallery. I
took one look at the shot of the chess set at the museum. It took
my breath away. Marvelous.

I would say get the 1D and experience it in all its wonderfulness
and then use it to be your reference for the next step. That is,
wait till you find something better. It might be a long wait.

As for how heavy it is, I was concerned about that too. After
visiiting my local camera shop several times, once a week, over a
period of two months, and spending at least 20 minutes playing with
the 1D each time, I noticed something -- each time I held it, it
seemed smaller and lighter. So, my guess is you too can become
accumstomed to its weight. I think a nice heavy like the 1D
actually hand holds better than a light camera. It takes more
twitching to move such a large mass.

By the way, the thing that most impressed me about the 1D is its
responsiveness. I shoot the D30, and the 1D gets off a shot so
quickly (by comparison) it's uncanny. I thought the D30 was
adequate until I started playing with the 1D. I cannot tell you
how many times I have filled the D30's buffer and THEN wanted to
shoot once more because what I saw in the viewfinder was that
fleeting moment -- and all I was able to do was just watch because
the D30 was busy. When I was playing with the 1D, I couldn't seem
to fill the buffer. It's definitely a good step up from what
you've got (and from what I've got).

And I'm curious to see what your pics will look like with it.

I hope this helps.

Bob

Click to expand...

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

--
Brand new baby EOS 1D
1V HS
28-70 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8, 2x adapter
ST-E2, 550EX, 380EX
lots of assorted filters and goodies
D30 and D60 for sale

Click to expand...

Matthew Cromer said:

However I wouldn't do large groups at weddings with it.

It also doesn't have enough resolution for large prints of
landscape and architectural images (or still lifes).

This is not a knock on the 1D, the only camera with enough
resolution for all these tasks (AFAIAC) is 1Ds and the Kodak 14n or
some scanning backs.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work

Click to expand...

Beth said:

Beth wrote:

I have been an Oly E10 shooter for a year and a half now. Though
it's a fine camera for the dollars, I think I have outgrown it. I
am tired of missing shots as it powers up. I'm tired of losing
shots to poor focusing in low light (partly my problem possibly).
I'm tired of limited usable ISO (ISO 80 is the best and most often
used/ISO 160 in a pinch). I'm tired of struggling with noise. This
camera CAN produce a images almost as nice as a D30's with lots of
work! I'm tired of losing shots as the buffer clears after 4 shots!
I'd like to be able to enlarge some of my photos to 20x30--well, at
least 13x19!

Click to expand...

Beth said:

Thanks for the advice, but we all are in different places and
advice that would be perfect for some people, would be financial
disaster for others.

Beth

laupi said:

Beth said:

Actually, I may be making some money using the E10 which will go
into the "New Camera piggy bank." I hope to be able to purchase the
next body and a couple of lenses and will add more as possible. PMA
is very exciting this year! I feel like a kid waiting for the
winter holidays! Hope I'm not disappointed.

Beth

Duane Kilby said:

Beth,

Having made the transition myself from the E-10 to the Canon world
recently, I understand your concerns. Despite what they say over
inthe OLY-SLR forum, Even the D30 is a considerable upgrade from
the E-10/20 mainly for the reasons you suggest, ISO range, Noise
and buffer speed. Even with the smaller file size of the D30, the
image is much easier to enlarge due to the substantially "cleaner"
image. The ISO 800 of the D30/60 is less noisy than the E10's 160,
and with the D's the wait is gone.......

I chose to get into the Canon system slowly, opting for the D30 and
the 28-135 IS lens. I pick up the pair for $1,500 with the BG-ED
battery pack, 4 batteries and a 256Meg card from ebay. This combo
will retain a lot of it's value for a year or two, while anything
new will be worth half (or less) the current cost in the same time
frame. I think (just as Nikon has done,) Canon will start making
glass specifically for their digital cameras, reducing the price
for good glass.

The D30/BG-ED 28-135 combo is heaver than the E-10 with the Lipo,
but I really haven't noticed. But, this lens is not an L series,
and L glass is substantially heaver.

What you will miss most about the move is great glass. To equal the
Oly lens on the E-10 you'll want "L" series lenses, and I'm sure
you already know what any of those will cost you.
You'll also miss the point and shoot ability of the E-10,
especially with the FL-40 flash. I rarely messed up a flash shot
with the FL-40, but the flexibility of the 420 and 550 EX series of
flashes takes a bit to master. You'll get better shots, but you'll
have to work a little harder to get it right.

If I had your talent (I've been admiring your work for some time
now.....) I'd pick up a few paying gigs with your E-10, saving up
for a few months. I'd then go out and borrow or rent the cameras
with good lenses you are interested in, and try them out. You wont
regret the few buck spent making a good decision. I also recommend
my method. I still have my E-10, and am happily exploring the
new/different world my D30 has opened up, knowing this is just a
step on the ladder.

Keep shooting,
Duane

Click to expand...

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

Beth said:

Perhaps some other reputable manufacturer will unveil a 4/3 system?
Anyone hearing rumors?

Click to expand...

Bill Harris said:

I personally think the low light issue your concerned with with the
D60 is overblown, but on the same token I'll fully admit it's
nowhere nears as good as the 1D, but with the right lens it can be
a compromise that will work especially with a STE2 mounted.

Click to expand...

Arnie Mauer said:

The camera is absolutely phenominal.

The best to you in the new year.
--
--Arnie

Beth said:

Beth wrote:

I have been an Oly E10 shooter for a year and a half now. Though
it's a fine camera for the dollars, I think I have outgrown it. I
am tired of missing shots as it powers up. I'm tired of losing
shots to poor focusing in low light (partly my problem possibly).
I'm tired of limited usable ISO (ISO 80 is the best and most often
used/ISO 160 in a pinch). I'm tired of struggling with noise. This
camera CAN produce a images almost as nice as a D30's with lots of
work! I'm tired of losing shots as the buffer clears after 4 shots!
I'd like to be able to enlarge some of my photos to 20x30--well, at
least 13x19!

Click to expand...

Click to expand...