How about a Hunting Thread

Kim R said:

I thank you for the time you spent in assuring that we here in the US have the right to keep and bear arms.

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if Im not mistaken, thats much more about armed insurrection against your own Government than it is a potential invading force, ie. Canada ?

unless that is, you also have the right to keep and bear tactical chemical/biological/nuclear weapons, depleted uranium munitions for your artillery piece and tank, which the next effort against the west on their home turf will surely include.

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended

jim stirling said:

Kim R said:

Jim and other anti-hunting posters have in their own mind, consciously or sub-consciously a desire to paint all hunters as something we may not all be. Their assumptions are certainly far from correct.

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Hi Kim,

I am not anti-hunting as I made clear in previous posts; I am anti the gratuitous killing of animals for trophies. Hunting for animals you intend to eat is an entirely different matter and I apologies if I misinterpreted your post as being a trophy hunt as that is what the photo with the woman rather looked like to me.

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Yeah because it makes a better photo then blood... I usually try to avoid the gore part in the images but the truth of the matter there is blood involved.

I have hunted big game since I was 7 years of age (a long time ago), I harvested my first big game animal at 9 year and birds long before that. The main purpose was never for the trophy of antlers, feather, etc. but rather for food and the management of healthy herds.

Now as you directed a post directly to my image post in regards to your reference of "trophy hunting" I did assume you made another incorrect assumption. That is OK it does not bother me and I have a clear conscious for what I do as it is all ethical and responsible. The lady imaged with the antlers certainly may have them hanging upon her wall, I do not know that but I do hope she does or that they are now a cribbage board, table legs, a lamp, or something. It amazed me where she went and the endurance she put out to harvest that elk and she certainly deserves the beautiful antlers gracing her home as a by-product of the harvest. All edible parts of the animal were harvested, shared and consumed and that and herd management was the purpose of the hunt.

Granted... there are good hunters and there are bad hunters but then again there are good conservationist and there are bad conservationists too. These things get so blown out of proportion by some who do not realize what goes on that it is actually ridiculous. The thread is out of control now with some pretty idiotic and sad things said with no basis of fact.

For God sake we even have more then one poster in this thread who seems to be champions of and rejoicing about the death of other humans.
How sick and disrespectful is that?

Jim, thank you for your reply I do appreciate it.
--

KimR

Rriley said:

Kim R said:

I thank you for the time you spent in assuring that we here in the US have the right to keep and bear arms.

Click to expand...

if Im not mistaken, thats much more about armed insurrection against your own Government than it is a potential invading force, ie. Canada ?

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Whoa! That gives me a good idea.

Invade Canada and play hockey 12 months a year and hunt and kill the grizzly bears and cover my home with skins!

I'm definitely NOT breaking into your house Ben, for one of those lovely cameras in your collection!! Kidding...of course!

I do wonder though what you'll do with that lovely Webber BBQ in the background, seeing that you don't hunt. Nothing quite like a good steak!

Again - I'm not anti-hunting. And I'm far from a bleeding heart. If you have an animal that's a pest or danger I have no issues with it being legally killed. None. But I have to say - if the animal doesn't need population control, you're not eating it and you're not removing it as a pest - you're just going out to shoot it for simple sport, that's not something I have an interest in.

All I'm saying is the act itself isn't the point to me - it's the reason behind the act. Is killing animal "X" OK to me? If you're eating it, it's endangering someone or something, needs to have population reduced or is destroying property - yes, in general I have no problem. But if none of that applies and your sole purpose in killing it is just for fun - that's a bit different. I'm not interested in getting down to a fine list of criteria - that's pointless. You can either understand my point or not by now.

Similarly with humans. If someone threatens my self or family I have no moral objection to killing them - none. In service to my country I have no objection to killing an opposing soldier / combatant. But that doesn't mean I condone knowingly killing someone in other circumstances.

Whether it's a human or animal, I don't personally believe killing in and of itself is purely right or purely wrong - the devil, as they say, is in the details. Not saying your or anyone else has to agree with me or think like me. It's up to the courts to prosecute individuals that disobey the law. As for moral judgement - I can have an opinion, but that's all it is - an opinion.

You make so many assumptions of what other peoples feeling may be but you are not responsible for those feelings as they are not yours nor do you really know what their feelings are.

I am not responsible for the feelings of the lady in the image & do I know what they all were. I personally felt very "happy" at the time because shortly before the image was taken I had doubt that she was going to get out of the canyon without being carried out. With my encouragement and a tow holding on to a belt she made it though. I am thinking she probably felt some "joy" about that too and I know she felt relieved because I remember the big sigh from her when she let go of the belt I was towing her with. ;-)

You will have to be responsible and handle you own feelings including your feeling of disgust Oly and my advice is that you should probably concentrate on those instead of the feeling of others that you are not responsible for.

I know that you are not speaking for "Jim and some others" but only for yourself. I accept your opinion for what it is. I do not take your opinions or your feelings into possession so they are quite simply not my problem.

A drum magazine and prison time - wow!.

That drum magazine holds twenty (20) - 12 gauge shotgun shells. That particular rifle is a Russian made Saiga semi-auto 12 Gauge shotgun (the Russians make some neat firearms). There are also 12, 10, and 5 round magazines available.

As an aside, I'm a retired US Marine Corps veteran with 26 years of active service. I've always enjoyed marksmanship and maintained my expert rifle/pistol qualifications during that time. When I retired from the Corps back in '92, my interest in firearms obviously waned a bit. But it wasn't until the last several years that I became interested in marksmanship again using various firearms - thanks toa local Sheriff's Department officer who showed me their excellent indoor range (which features a 125 yard rifle range and 50-yard pistol ranges). I have several really good ranges near my home and I now enjoy enjoy maintaining an excellent knowledge and familiarity with a variety of pistols, rifles, and shotguns.

The reason I say that I don't hunt is that quite frankly, although being a former warrior, I couldn't hurt a flea (unless it's in self defense). I'm the kind of guy who will stop in heavy traffic to help a turtle (yes, even a snake) across the road to safety. If I run over a frog or lizard while cutting the lawn, I feel bad about. I guess the best way to summarize my feelings is to say that I'm not God, and as such, I do not have the right to take other life - regardless of what it is. I know that sounds a big sissy-ish, but that's just me. Of course, if someone elects to break into my home, or threatens my life, then that's a complete other matter - at which time I can become quite vicious!

I do shudder to think that a government can take away anything you own - under the guise of protecting its citizens. Then only the bad guys will have the weapons since they always manage to find them illegally.

Oh well.....
--

if we can eat vegetarian (to a degree of course), we do. We tend to eat mostly chicken and fish products and the Misses is a gourmet cook. That Weber comes in handy for a wide variety of savory dishes. There's not a week that goes by where I don't experiment some form of gastro-intestinal orgasm!!!!
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Kim R said:

You make so many assumptions

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...as it seems, not as many as you do, but never mind, it's Friday afternoon here in Europe, so I don't care for this thread any more.

Bye

Ben Herrmann said:

I guess the best way to summarize my feelings is to say that I'm not God, and as such, I do not have the right to take other life - regardless of what it is.

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Yeah Ben, I always though that's what "Thou shalt not kill" meant.

--
Ted

Back to the original question and taking into account the 100+ posts since then

The answer is no!

You have a good argument
Those who oppose you have an equally good argument

The problem is that it is such a volatile subkject that threads will be long and boring without much discussion of photography or Olympus gear.

Despite being strongly in the anti camp, as I said earlier I am very much in the live and let live camp. So if you want to have hunting threads:

1) state clearly in the subject that you appreciate that some might find it offensive

2) brace youself that you will inebvitably get responses from people who have forgotten that this is a photography forum

--



My Galleries are at
http://picasaweb.google.com/trevorfcarpenter

Trevor you are correct its 2 porcupines involed in a a bum kicking compertition.

I support parts of both sides and know there is no black and white, there are only shades of grey.

--
Collin

(Aficionado Olympus DSLR )

http://collinbaxter.zenfolio.com/

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. (George Carlin)

New Seventh Wonder of the World.

CollBaxter wrote:
there is no black and white,

There is for Zebra hunters
Jim

Only Burchell’s The mountain and others are cites protected they also taste " Manky " like rancid horse meat I believe. Oh yes no Quaga’s as the where hunted to extinction in the late 1800’s

Collin

(Aficionado Olympus DSLR )

http://collinbaxter.zenfolio.com/

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. (George Carlin)

New Seventh Wonder of the World.

when I was in the US a few years back visiting my (now ex-) inlaws, my father-in-law let us shoot with him supervising (he's an ex-armyman) out in the field on practice targets (cast iron custom made and whatever trash we had that could be used like empty cans or old glass bottles).

I tried his Luger Mk II, I liked that recoil is minimal and noise tolerable with earplugs, shame it's so ugly though I also tried a .22LR rifle, can't remember the model though. My ex-wife shot her .357 and her dad's 9mm, but I didn't try them, too noisy and recoiling to my taste.

At any rate, I enjoyed it, like I enjoyed shooting a bow when I was a teenager, as long as it's on a practice target. Bummer that France is so restrictive, if you want to do that kind of shooting in a club, you have to start off renting the club's guns, and only after enough time in a club can you apply for a license (which also requires, among other things, that you own a bolted safe, and you need to prove it) to be allowed to own your own gun. Hunting guns (the bird shot/balltrap kind) are different, but still.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/airelle-info/

Collin:

I have to say that after several years of lurking here on the Oly forum, and seeing your numerous posts - I just FINALLY today visited your Zenfolio page(s). What incredibly beautiful work.

I have to admit that I thought a hunting thread was a great idea - being from the Southern USA that's just something we see a lot of around here - but your images are something to behold. So, this is off-subject here, but a standing ovation to you Collin. Magnificant work. Just simply beautiful.

Brad
--
Shoot lots of images of your kids - they grow up fast!

Thanks for looking I Must actually sort out the Zenfolia Site. It’s a bit higgledy pigeldy.

What I have gleaned from this post is the rural and city situation. Those that come from a rural back ground are far more pragmatic about wild life and animals. City people look at animals as pets . I can see that myself with the amount of money we spend on toys , food , grooming and other trikets and baubles for or pets.

Due to there final destination farmers and rural people seldom give their food names . As this lands up on the table and one does not want to ask “who is it we are eating today. “ . In the cities your food is packaged without a face , its just lumps of stuff. In the rural areas game and live stock are often looked at the same. The problem is game is a bit of a bugger to catch and drag off to the slaughter house so it is shoot . The game also has a chance of escaping. I live in the city ( well suburbia) but have lived on a farm and in rural areas and have seen both sides.

I still appose hunting to kill and unbridled , uncontrolled hunting. I am ok with hunting for conservation funtions and income generation for preservation.

--
Collin

(Aficionado Olympus DSLR )

http://collinbaxter.zenfolio.com/

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. (George Carlin)

New Seventh Wonder of the World.

I probably did a poor job of explaining myself in a prior post when I used the term "culture".

One member rapidly proclaimed that I was mistaken when he said: "It also appears to me that YOU are the one who lack the knowledge, since you mix culture with hunting. Hunting is as much of a culture here as it is there, maybe even more in some parts of Sweden."

I feel this entire post has revealed many diverse views, and many of the opinions that surfaced are the direct result of a diverse group of people. I will go so far as to say that the emotional variations carry well beyond just the City v. Rural "cultures". We've seen firearm ownership variations from one nation to another...species of animals that are hunted/killed....terms/language differences that cross both geographic and "cultural" barriers. There are probably more variations in rules, laws, regulations, and "cultural" differences in conservation than there are species of animals that are hunted. As a U.S. citizen I can vouch that the same "cultural" differences are experienced within our nation...particularly the City V. Rural elements.

Maybe I am biased towards the hunter because I do consider myself a "hunter" (ethical, conservation based, species/animal survival minded...but from a "rural" background). I understand and respect the opinions of those that don't want to personally be involved in the killing of an animal. I understand that the topic is completely "gray"...hunting isn't for everyone and shouldn't be for everyone...that would probably create an even greater strain on the "balance" I feel is needed. Debating this topic widens the color of "gray" as parties move to polar opposites. Some even immediately assumed that the contributions made by "hunters" immediately placed all hunter/hunting into the dirty "trophy" hunter side of "killing".

What troubles me the most is that the tragic death of two humans (even if they were "hunters") was used as a point of "humor" by an "anti-hunter"....and it was declared that the deceased "deserved" what they got...apparently because they were hunting/killed a deer.

On the positive side I appreciate each of you that expressed your reasons (in a perfectly civil manner) for not personally wanting to be involved in the death of any animal. In many ways this entire thread represents "photography" in some odd manner...thankfully we are a diverse group and don't all focus on the same topics, techniques, subject matter. Most odd of all this has driven me to want to take more pictures....of all that I find interesting (including hunting).

Thank You (particularly Collin),
Gary

there are issues of

• survival of the fittest - barefoot man with knive aginst the bear
• killing in slaughterhouses vs. killing by hunting
• farming in farms vs farming in the nature (whereby I do not beleive what hunters believe that they farm the wildlife by killing the right animal for imporvin populationes etc. populations for sure react on these farming attempts by overproduction of certain species etc.)
• killing because of farming or "making food" versus killing because of superiority of mankind or superiority of the social class
• killing because of killerlust and joy.

so, there are pros and cons. but those superiority social class killers out of lust and joy are no good advertizing for hunting. and the impact of hunting on population development should be better assesssed by sciences.

BR gusti

"so, there are pros and cons. but those superiority social class killers out of lust and joy are no good advertizing for hunting. and the impact of hunting on population development should be better assesssed by sciences."

So it should. We already know what happens when surburbia growth and forest clearing affect animal habitat.

This begs the question which is worse for animals; making new suburbs and shopping centers or hunting? My bet is on new burbs and shopping centers.