Everyone else such as Sigma?
If forced to make the choice between Bayer sensor and daguerreotype, I would choose daguerreotype.
I am pleased Fuji isn't Kodaking on us, something I thought might happen earlier this year.
Signed, EXR fanboy
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X10 EXR and DR mode questions, aka, hating the Fuji manual.
- Thread starter Daniel Lauring
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- fujifilm x10
If forced to make the choice between Bayer sensor and daguerreotype, I would choose daguerreotype.
I am pleased Fuji isn't Kodaking on us, something I thought might happen earlier this year.
Signed, EXR fanboy
noobdprseller
Forum Enthusiast
I shot my Kodak Slrc at 6mp most of the time even though it was a FF 13.5mp. At 6mp it gave me lower noise at higher iso (according to my unscientific photoing)
Fuji are compensating for the small sized sensor with EXR DR & SN & im happy to use EXR DR & SN RAW @6mp as and when the scene needs it.
It straightforward.
--
HCB "Photography has not changed since its origin except in its technical aspects, which for me are not important."
That is how cars were in the old days, a starting handle on
the engine, or an ignition switching a solenoid.
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Glen Barrington
Forum Pro
Well, the X10 and the X100 have brought in a lot of new Fuji users, like me. And EXR is a mystery to me.
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Trevor G
Veteran Member
They are not being performed unless the option is switched on somewhere in the muliitude of ways that it can be.
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Trevor G
Veteran Member
Many photographers are like you and just want a P&S camera.
However, there are also many (like me) who clamour for complete control over all modes, hence the extra settings.
There already are several positions on your car's ignition switch that do essentially the same thing in the user's eyes (Accessories and On) but are functionally quite different. In both modes all the internal electrical eccessories are available, but in Accessories the ECU is not powered on.
--
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Trevor G
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JJJRRR768
Forum Pro
Do you mean 6 or 12mp by which mode?
thanks
D
Daniel Lauring
Guest
If you think that, you've made the same mistake as Fuji engineers, confusing complicated for configurable.
You can have a very complex device, with lots of control, without making confusing menus with features scattered into different spots.
Why do you need 5 different auto modes with different modes under each? That isn't offering more control or configurability. It is just adding more annoyance.
The controls of the X10 feel like they were done by 20 different engineers who didn't talk to each other.
You can have a very complex device, with lots of control, without making confusing menus with features scattered into different spots.
Why do you need 5 different auto modes with different modes under each? That isn't offering more control or configurability. It is just adding more annoyance.
The controls of the X10 feel like they were done by 20 different engineers who didn't talk to each other.
Trevor G
Veteran Member
I'm not here to argue, but to inform. ;-)
Simple modes, especially when they come with those neat little pictograms, and there are plenty of them (both simple modes and pictograms!), are provided for P&S guys who don't want to read the manual.
Ability to switch EXR modes on and off is provided for those who want to get the most sensor information out of a particular image, and don't mind making adjustments to do so.
Reading the manual and reading some of the posts in the forum should almost be enough to get you on track. Mind you, actually exposing some images with an EXR sensor camera would also be great - I'm looking forward to having one soon. ;-)
Some shooters do all their adjusting in PP - I shoot my Fuji S5Pro and Nikon D700 in aperture priority with no bells and whistles, since I do all my image work afterwards using RAW. Takes little time with Silkypix Pro.
--
Cheers
Trevor G
http://www.computerwyse.com
D
Daniel Lauring
Guest
What you said came across as a little condescending, as in, "These controls might be too complicated for you if you are just a point and shooter."
I assure you've I've had plenty of experience with cameras before, from my first Mamiya 35mm in 1980, to Nikon 9xx series, to Canon prosumer digitals, and many in between.
I am very familiar with camera controls and rarely have to read a manual.
I mostly shoot in aperture or shutter priority modes in RAW+jpeg with a sprinkling of manual mode.
I like a camera that has foolproof auto modes so I can hand it off to a newbie and they can get decent results. When I got my first digital SLR, the Canon D30 I was impressed how well it worked in "green" mode. My mantra was that it was the best P&S camera I had ever owned.
Sticking with simple aperture and shutter priority this X10 does an impressive job.
However, I'd like to better explore it's EXR capabilities and there is where my frustration lies. It isn't clear what it does in PASM modes, relative to EXR, and the actual EXR mode is dumbed down to the point of being useless. On top of that, the other modes, that make it simple to hand to someone with less experience are buried under different auto positions. It would be much more useful to have these simple modes as wheel positions, instead of 5 different auto modes.
So far, it sounds like no one is really confident that you access the higher S/N ratio outside EXR. And, if that is so, why the heck is there even an EXR position. Why not just put those features into P mode, or SP mode...or one of the other 4 auto modes.
I'm going to do some further testing to see if I see much difference between the different auto modes and between 6Mp and 12Mp, but I shouldn't have to investigate. The manual should clearly state what features are being used in all modes...not just treat fully auto EXR mode like the magic one (unless it is?)
I assure you've I've had plenty of experience with cameras before, from my first Mamiya 35mm in 1980, to Nikon 9xx series, to Canon prosumer digitals, and many in between.
I am very familiar with camera controls and rarely have to read a manual.
I mostly shoot in aperture or shutter priority modes in RAW+jpeg with a sprinkling of manual mode.
I like a camera that has foolproof auto modes so I can hand it off to a newbie and they can get decent results. When I got my first digital SLR, the Canon D30 I was impressed how well it worked in "green" mode. My mantra was that it was the best P&S camera I had ever owned.
Sticking with simple aperture and shutter priority this X10 does an impressive job.
However, I'd like to better explore it's EXR capabilities and there is where my frustration lies. It isn't clear what it does in PASM modes, relative to EXR, and the actual EXR mode is dumbed down to the point of being useless. On top of that, the other modes, that make it simple to hand to someone with less experience are buried under different auto positions. It would be much more useful to have these simple modes as wheel positions, instead of 5 different auto modes.
So far, it sounds like no one is really confident that you access the higher S/N ratio outside EXR. And, if that is so, why the heck is there even an EXR position. Why not just put those features into P mode, or SP mode...or one of the other 4 auto modes.
I'm going to do some further testing to see if I see much difference between the different auto modes and between 6Mp and 12Mp, but I shouldn't have to investigate. The manual should clearly state what features are being used in all modes...not just treat fully auto EXR mode like the magic one (unless it is?)
I have an F70 EXR P&S and on that camera you are correct. If I select 5MP I get SNR mode in PASM without choosing EXR.
If I select DR400 in 5MP mode I get EXR DR extension.
I always use EXR, I never shoot 10MP, and I never use the marked EXR mode because it gives too little control.
Fuji built in very good capability with a very unclear manual. Once you figure out the rules it is nice to use.
Kim Letkeman has good guidance on this.
Does the X10 still work this way? Someone will have to test.
noobdprseller
Forum Enthusiast
In my mind, i simplified X10 UI to the way i like
:
Leave it upto to X10 to decide ( when no time to set things up )
Advanced mode top dial : Panorama, ProLight high iso low noise, Pro Portrait out of focus backgrounds.
EXR for full RES or DR or SN less noise
SP scene modes
I will decide ( when i have time to set things up )
A,S,M including setting DR at 100%, 200%, 400%
:
For both i will choose 6mp RAW unless i need speed.
--
HCB "Photography has not changed since its origin except in its technical aspects, which for me are not important."
:
Leave it upto to X10 to decide ( when no time to set things up )
Advanced mode top dial : Panorama, ProLight high iso low noise, Pro Portrait out of focus backgrounds.
EXR for full RES or DR or SN less noise
SP scene modes
I will decide ( when i have time to set things up )
A,S,M including setting DR at 100%, 200%, 400%
:
For both i will choose 6mp RAW unless i need speed.
--
HCB "Photography has not changed since its origin except in its technical aspects, which for me are not important."
Trevor G
Veteran Member
New technology, if you are to exploit it fully, demands that you read something.
It seems clear as I read the manual what it does in EXR modes, and when EXR is enabled in RAW (it isn't, by default according to the chart at the back of the manual).
It would be hard to find out anything about EXR or what any of its modes did without reading something, somewhere.
How will you know how or what to test, if you don't know what result to expect, or when that result occurs?
Manuals from Japan/Asia are frequently obtuse. In contrast the manual which came with my Panasonic-cloned Leica Digilux 2 was extremely precise and well done. It originated in Germany.
Don't forget to follow my tips in the other thread for evaluating the EXR-DR mode. ;-)
--
Cheers
Trevor G
http://www.computerwyse.com
... Whilst I haven't yet played with an X10, I've always found it is better not to use EXR mode but instead use P mode. This is how I shoot my F200 EXR and also what I used when I had a play with an HS20 EXR. The settings are in the blog post :
http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/2011/05/fujifilm-hs20-exr-impressions.html
That being said, I also found that using EXR SN mode for low light works well, if you also pull the EV down :
http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/2010/10/fujifilm-f200-exr-sn-mode.html
--
Regards, Dave
http://www.eyemindsoul.com
http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/2011/05/fujifilm-hs20-exr-impressions.html
That being said, I also found that using EXR SN mode for low light works well, if you also pull the EV down :
http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/2010/10/fujifilm-f200-exr-sn-mode.html
--
Regards, Dave
http://www.eyemindsoul.com
D
Daniel Lauring
Guest
Not always. You don't have to read anything to enjoy cable modem speeds vs. dial-up. Anti-lock brakes just work...nothing to do on your part. Either way, I've actually read through the entire silly manual that came with the X10 several times...and to put it lightly, it hasn't been as helpful as I had hoped.
For example, on page 28, there is a chart that shows what "scenes" EXR chooses. There are symbols in the chart no explanation of what they mean, though you could guess by the headings. The round thing with little lines might be a ball moving suggesting the camera will pick higher shutter speeds. The picture of what looks like a Christmas tree might suggest greens are enhanced under "Greenery."
Now the weird part. These specific modes aren't all available in the SP (scene) position to choose manually. The ones that are in the SP position often have slightly different symbols. For example Sports mode has a classic symbol of a man running...not a ball moving. There is no "Greenery" mode or tree shown. There is no backlit mode let alone a backlit with a ball moving.
Going back to EXR mode. When you switch to it all these symbols flash on the screen so fast you can't see them all. Are they just trying to show the auto scene modes that might be chosen? It's like some of those numbers that fly past your computer screen when it boots up. Are we supposed to do something with them?
Normally, I wouldn't much care for any of that scene silliness anyway, because I shoot in AS&M modes, but if I'm handing the camera to someone else, or want to try and enjoy some of the automation myself (sometimes I actually use sport mode, with Canon cameras for example) it would be nice to better access them or know what they were actually doing.
Apparently, if I want to go over 400% with dynamic range, I have to use EXR mode, so I'm stuck there. But how do I know if I want to use 800%, or should, because it doesn't explain what the tradeoffs might be? Heck, it doesn't explain the tradeoffs of dynamic range at all.
Are you saying the chart implies that you get no EXR benefits if you shoot RAW, or just that you can't record RAW in EXR mode?
Please explain because what people are saying seems to be a leap from what the manual says. The chart has EXR at the top, in fact, the top looks to be the switch postions, while the left looks to be what is available under those switch positions. What that chart, at the end of the manual never addresses, is whether the benefits of the EXR (dual read speeds on sensor) would be used in PASM modes.
Another thing, what are the tradeoffs of shooting speeds? Why wouldn't you always choose the fastest one in PASM modes? On some cameras the file size starts going down at faster speeds. There is a comment, on page 122 about RAW+jpeg being limited to 8 frames...but no idea how that is enforced...slower speeds automatically or RAW disengaged if you pick a higher speed.) What is the difference between "best frame capture" and the other frame capture. Is it limited to 16-8 total frames where the other isn't? What is the tradeoff of limiting yourself to 16-8 frames? Is there a benefit?
Will any of the continuous modes attempt to track focus of a subject?
Why can't I view all the pictures I took in the high frame modes, on the camera? It never mentions that in the manual, but when you go back to view a burst it only shows the first picture in the burst. So, if I'm out one day, using the continuous modes to say, get the best pics of a surfer, I can't go back and view and delete any of the bad ones in the camera?
That is a great question. I won't necessarily because it seems like even the experts here in this forum disagree. So, I will have to try to find out myself. For example, I'd like to know if I get any dynamic range benefit, of shooting at 6Mp vs. 12Mp. The only way to tell is to set up a shot, shoot both, and then view the shots and histograms back on my computer.
The Canon manuals are pretty decent.
Not sure how exactly to evaluate it and know it's really working other than EXR mode.
D
Daniel Lauring
Guest
Why P mode and not SA&M mode? Any benefits to letting the camera have P control?
In the this part are you implying that improved SN only works in EXR mode? That you don't get any SN benefits from the sensor otherwise?
Boo
Veteran Member
I haven't read all of this thread, or other similar current ones in respect of EXR functionality but some of the same points seem to keep cropping up. I don't have an X10 but I do shoot an HS20 EXR.
I routinely use 400% DR in the two modes that I use most - Aperture Priority and Manual, so you do have it available in those modes. If you want 800% DR on the HS20, you need to move to the EXR mode and choose the dynamic range priority option of the various sub-modes available there.
I've found using 400% DR excellent at protecting highlights in general scenes with a high degree of contrast - sunlit landscapes etc.. I particularly love the skies I get with it in landscapes - white fluffy clouds have nice detail and where in the past I would almost always have had to dial in some -ve EC to prevent highlights like that from being blown (leading to underexposure elsewhere), I now find that I shoot the vast majority of shots at 0EC as can be confident that it won't over-expose bright areas. So I now tend to shoot it by just exposing for the general scene and knowing that clouds and the like will be protected.
In the past and with my DSLR I've routinely shot RAW to then manually blend two different developed exposures for scenes with high contrast, to get detail in shadows and highlights like sky and reflections etc. Using the HS20 as my walk around camera I've decided to stick with shooting JPEGs, as RAW is problematic for me with the supplied software and an inadequate computer - but I'm actually very happy with it, it does a good job for the types of things I shoot , using a combination of high DR, low sharpening and noise reduction and then my own PP routine to taste. On a few shots where I've taken JPEG+RAW, I've actually liked the results from the JPEG better than what I could achieve from the RAW. RAW certainly has its place for some aspects of image quality, but for me, at this time, the JPEGs with 400% DR suit my personal needs better.
See this post for a somewhat unscientific example of what I mean:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=38983152
These are the sort of scenes where EXR shows its advantage - these are tonally as they came out of the camera, I've PP'd for contrast, saturation and sharpening, but tonally I've not adjusted them - I like that I can take scenes with dark areas and the highlights are retained too. I must do a more direct comparison of the same scene with and without EXR at some point to illustrate the difference more scientifically.
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Daniel Lauring
Guest
Those are great shots, especially the last one.
So are you saying all these shots were done in A or P modes....or in EXR mode?
Do you shoot exclusively at half resolution (to take full advantage of EXR), or full resolution?
One of the main points of the discussion was how to fully utilize the EXR capabilities of the camera.
Right now, I'm very pleased with the basic AS&M operation of the X10. It produces the most pleasing, detailed jpegs of any of the cameras I've used before (Oly XZ-1, S100) however I'd like to know I'm maximizing the benefit of the technology in this camera and not neutering it with the wrong settings.
So are you saying all these shots were done in A or P modes....or in EXR mode?
Do you shoot exclusively at half resolution (to take full advantage of EXR), or full resolution?
One of the main points of the discussion was how to fully utilize the EXR capabilities of the camera.
Right now, I'm very pleased with the basic AS&M operation of the X10. It produces the most pleasing, detailed jpegs of any of the cameras I've used before (Oly XZ-1, S100) however I'd like to know I'm maximizing the benefit of the technology in this camera and not neutering it with the wrong settings.
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