why is my iPhone more versatile then a 5Dmk2 (time to open up canon)

gipper51 said:

To me, photography means prints...looking good only on a 4" screen is...I don't know what to call it.

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Call it "What most people want these days."

Many people have multiple collections of years of vacation photos on their phones and digicams. They haven't even bothered to copy them to a computer much less print them out. When they want to show people photos from their vacations, they pull their phone or digicam out and start a slide show on the tiny screen.

I'd love to have apps on my 5DII. They will eventually have to go that route. Some competitor might have to do it first to make them motivated.
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JMHO Adam

http://www.adamapalmer.com

gipper51 said:

Now, does that mean Canon should ignore features like HDR in high end cameras? No it doesn't. What it means is that Canon will wait until the feature is refined enough to make it a viable tool for the people willing to spend $2500 or more on a camera. Auto HDR and auto-panoramic stitching are neat tricks on a Sony A55, but are they good enough to keep a pro or serious enthusiasts from doing the task better in post processing? Until that answer is "yes", why botther adding useless features to the camera? We saw how well the "direct print" button worked out

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You seem to imply that universally, pros and enthusiast photographers must by default be accomplished post-processors? Just maybe there are phenomenal photographers out there with the "eye" who aren't so hot at post-processing, and that 'yes', in-camera software might achieve better results than their PP skills would, or results that they wouldn't attempt in the first place in a post-processing software environment.

Besides.. I presume most of these effects would yield in-camera Jpegs, so there would theoretically still exist the option to shoot Raw+Jpeg if so desired... for those who after review of in-camera 'gimmick' result, decide they want to try themselves.

gipper51 said:

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Check out the new site:
http://www.gipperich-photography.com
Or the portrait gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/gipper51/portraits

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'Everything in photography boils down to what's sharp and what's fuzzy.'
-Gaylord Herron

Scott Larson said:

gipper51 said:

To me, photography means prints...looking good only on a 4" screen is...I don't know what to call it.

Click to expand...

Call it "What most people want these days."

Many people have multiple collections of years of vacation photos on their phones and digicams. They haven't even bothered to copy them to a computer much less print them out. When they want to show people photos from their vacations, they pull their phone or digicam out and start a slide show on the tiny screen.

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True, and I don't mean to sound condescending...but "most" people just accept sh!tty results with most things they do. Wether it's doing a lousy job remodeling their house or taking pictures, very few people ever care about doing striving to achieve better than average results.

And the people who are happy to only show their pictures on an iphone really don't need to be buying a 5D camera.
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Check out the new site:
http://www.gipperich-photography.com
Or the portrait gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/gipper51/portraits

Adam Palmer said:

I'd love to have apps on my 5DII.

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speaking only for myself, "apps" will be a useless encumbrance on a camera that is to me a complicated, intricate tool that I use to collect images that I hope may have the potential to achieve print publication and/or large, beautiful frame-quality prints. I wish all the best to those using their 5DmkIIs to collect images they only want to display on 4x5" or smaller smart phone screens. But frankly, I'm happy with my cam just the way it is.

jedinstvo said:

But I'll bet it comes from the USA

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Now that's funny.

There have been a lot of negative responses to this, so I thought I would lend some support.

I think it would be very interesting to see a higher-end camera with an open-sourced feature set. Noting, of course, that the physical characteristics of the camera would not change, there are a number of features that could be added, changed, or removed that could prove useful to people with specific needs and interests.

For anyone thinking that a camera manufacturer would never allow this because of the support issues and even hardware risks, I posit the following: the manufacturer can develop an API (application programming interface) for control of the camera that has built-in safeguards from things such as exposing the sensor for too long, preventing overheating, etc. They could also provide a default UI and feature set that the user can aways get back to and that overrides any loaded software and allows it to be removed or reloaded. When a problem arises - go back to default. If the problem recurs - go back to the customizer.

For those thinking that the quality of the, as used as an example elsewhere, iPhone camera is because it is a multi-purpose device and a DSLR would not be as good if it were turned into a similar platform, I'd ask the following: would the 5DII take worse pictures if someone controlled the shutter from a custom user interface that implements an intervalometer than if it were triggered by a plug-in one or from a person controlling it manually?

Back to what could be in a customer firmware that I could see people valuing:

• an intervalometer (absolute control - as limited by the API - over frequency, duration, and braketing over a period of time)
• custom bracketing (aperture, shutter, exposure, focus at whatver number and "width" of brakets you want)
• plug-in noise reduction (let someone else pour R&D into the absolutely best NR)
• custom/smarter auto modes (ugh! right? But what if you could create an auto mode that fits exactly what you think the best settings are for different situations. Hmm, sounds like a custom C mode that we already use, but more configurable. Control the ISO range as well, for example)
• custom tagging/EXIF for images
• complete control of the functions of button/switches/dials on the camera

To support even greater customization, the camera maker could add some extra RAM/buffer, maybe a programmable DSP for image processing, and a means of communicating wirelessly (Bluetooth, etc). The options for in-camera processing and sending image data to backup devices or computers (without the need for a hand grip) would be great. Although others have mentioned that HDR may be best done on an image-by-image basis, I think many people would appreciate a well programmed capability built-in, which could leverage the buffer/memory and DSP for quick an high-quality processing. (And your custom software could be set up to save the source images as well as the end result if you want to work it yourself).

How many of you would buy a 5DIII that had our normal firmware configuration, or maybe $3-500 more for one that allowed custom firmware and wireless connectivity to a laptop/tablet/phone/wifi network?

I know I would certainly get the custom one.

David

At what cost would flexibility come?

Would HDR capability slow down other functions?

Would there be a longer "boot up" time?

My 5D2 has never crashed or locked up, but my iphone does fairly regularly, and I've neither jailbroken it nor loaded it up with lots of apps.

I do like the iphone 4 "places" tagging for photo organization, although sometimes the locations are off by several miles.

My final comment in this rambling response is that I've far more often wished the iphone camera was more like the 5D2 than the other way around!

An in between step is something like "DSLR Controller" (android) running on an external device like a tablet, or a smart phone. This is effectively a third party version of the PC/Mac controller software that Canon provides.

plus mr magoo should be very happy as iPhone 5 is announced tomorrow....

unlike 5d3.....

Bob Blount said:

Can you imagine what Canon would charge for fixing a DSLR bricked after downloading some destructive code downloaded from the web? I would not download any code not provided by Canon who would never get in the business of standing behind any other programmer.

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You mean that the camera has hardware commands that can cause self-destruction? That's very interesting...

void smashmirror();
void short_capacitor();
void heat_sensor_until_solder_melts();

Just think of all those PC motherboards toasted by rogue, home-brewed Linuxes!

All you need is immutable hardware feature to load the original firmware back in.

The cameras aren't open source because the manufacturers are arrogant, and think that they understand photography better than photographers.

Canon is probably the most arrogant of all, refusing to allow auto-ISO to work with flash enabled, one of the most basic practical camera functions in 2011.

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John

RedFox88 said:

Your camera is designed specifically to be a camera while your smart phone is designed to do a multitude of things: voice conversations, text messaging, computer programs, earth locations, voice recorder, video recorder. Plus the iphone sells probably in the 10s of millions of units per year where a 5D-series camera probably sells in the 100s of thousands of units. Plus a smart phone is often carried at all times by its users unlike a large SLR camera.

Simply different beats and different tools.

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Many P&S cameras do these same things. It doesn't seem to take much of a chip to do them. My Casio superzoom does a number of neat tricks, and only cost US $279 with a good lens, and a set of 4 eneloops lasts a couple days of shooting or more.

The HDR function works very well, I wouldn't change a thing about its tone-mapping most of the time; I just wish the images were 21MP instead of 9MP; they could be aligned more accurately.

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John

James Van Artsdalen said:

Wake me up when an iPhone photo has good Bokeh

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You would have to have something out of focus to evaluate the bokeh. Because of the DOF, that would have to be something extremely close to the lens. Bokeh is not the ability to have something way OOF; bokeh is the WAY things go out of focus when they go out of focus.

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John

dry - Thank you.

to the man who reads 'more versatile' as 'more gimmicky', HDRs (not tone mapped into the same colour palate) are necessary for some lighting situations, good sound on video is needed... that is not gimmicky... yes people will do things with it, i put a lens baby on my 5Dmk2 for fun... gimmicky, but so was HBC when he did street photography or Adams when he wanted all the tones or most of Weegee's output... what you consider 'gimmicky' may not be want the rest of us do. At the Professional photographers print awards in Autralia 2 years ago, there was every colour manipulation except real... even in the people category.

While telling me that this is not desirable one poster put up the programme i referred to in my original post that fixes a lot of issues with video on the 5Dmk2. That is the point. I would like to set the programme so that it doesn't photograph low light with the lens wide open... just one stop would be enough... and would like to dictate the speed to warn me at. For you men who only make still photos in the old way, printing each one. This makes no sense to you, i accept that.

Thank you to the poster who pointed out the hardware limitations. Personally, i'd like 20 bit as i worked in Australia and 12 bit is not enough. In China where i live atm, it's fine, some days we have shadows that are 3 stops darker (but most less), compared to Australia which can be 6 stops. Focus drives me nuts! Yes i would pay for a programme that keeps the red focus light on when it is focused! I would prefer to have a system like the D300 (i know it's not full frame), as it is a quick system and works. I can only be assured that the middle point will focus, so i'm cropping a lot to 1:1 and 4:5.

To the poster (stuff) who thought i didn't have a 5Dmk2, i got mine in the first week of release. In most ways it produces better prints then the C500 and Sinar F2 i had before. (as long as I'm using lenses that can resolve 21mpx.) you should read better...and don't' be so snide.

nekrosoft13, check your spelling I'm not 'mango' i'm 'magoo'. this rather large error calls into question your ability to prosecute your case. Oh you that's right, you just said the Nancy Regan line, 'just say no'. This is not an argument and thus not to be considered. A waste of your time and mine.

gipper51 - it would be so much better for HDR if the mirror didn't go up and down, less vibrations and quicker exposure. intact are we up to making readings at certain points in the exposure, than it would be just one exposure...

James Van Artsdalen - again way off the mark. I'm a stills shooter, the video example is used as one where someone saw a use that Canon didn't understand, and fixed issues (and you can find a link to the software on this thread). I learnt photography on, and used a Sinar F2 for portraits and exhibitions.

Adam Palmer - yes. you are right. Probably Sony. There are very few camera companies left now.

Scott Larson and gripper51, we are in an age of mediocrity, sometimes mistakenly referred to as democracy. Were everyone is a prosumer (a producer and consumer). I'm amazed that people don't find it condescending when they tell me 'you make great photos', to which i normally reply 'you do good (insert career here)'

Nolock - that is the Christian argument, I'm happy with these rules and ways of doing so, so all the rest of you should be too. We are not. We will not change your camera, it will function as Canon wanted you to use it, many of us want more.

tremorhand really you would? what you'd like the iPhone to be bigger and more bulky? do less?

My point in the beginning was that Canon can't imagine all the ways we'll use their gear and want to use it. Then give us an option of fixing these issues. It's not good enough to say, we know best keep buying (and if you are in Australia pay 40% more then Hong Kong!). Also it's about time we took back some control over our lives and stopped being brainwashed into accepting corporate interest as our good, (that goes for Apple, Canon and everyone).

Oh if you wish to see what i've done on the 5D (including making panoramas and HDRs)
http://www.garriemaguire.com/Changzhou

I think that is all that needs comment on at this stage.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0735714500/how-the-iphone-changed-my-photography

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magoo on safari

Yes, my point is, you can't take a good DOF-style photo with an iPhone in a practical way, whereas it's no big deal on a 35mm SLR (other than finding a decent lens wide open) and even easier medium-format. A small-sensor camera may be a good compromise but there are desirable things out of reach.

magoo_on_safari said:

Scott Larson and gripper51, we are in an age of mediocrity, sometimes mistakenly referred to as democracy. Were everyone is a prosumer (a producer and consumer). I'm amazed that people don't find it condescending when they tell me 'you make great photos', to which i normally reply 'you do good (insert career here)'

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I have hundreds of prints and negatives from Kodak Instamatics that prove the "age of mediocrity" goes back to at least 1972. Bad photography certainly existed before that. The shots from today's cell phones and digicams far exceed the quality of these 110 format photos and I think it's great that people can carry around hundreds of photos in their pocket. The people who design these products know what their customers want and it's not a bulky DSLR.

well an update to this tread...

Canon does have a SDK (found it while i was trying to find Digital Photo Professional, (Canon would you release this to Lightroom/phase one/aperture please) but i've not heard of any programme made with this! going to do more research now...

cheers

g
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magoo on safari

magoo

Whilst camera, Iphones and cars all share microprocessors, and by extension you may feel that all ought to be able to duplicate a range of software based tasks, the programming environment on any computer/phone doesn't have any particularly demanding jobs to do, whilst the specialist chip/control interfaces for real life mechanical tools does.

Don't for a second think that your Iphone could ever duplicate the functions of car control electronics and software - its way too slow to monitor engine performance in real time and undertake the most appropriate management for a range of performance criteria. Similarly, try shunting the volumes of video data you get off a 5DII through your Iphone. It might be able to do it in the end, but probably very very slowly, badly and you'll have stop and recharge the battery every 4 hrs because you're running the processor flat out for minutes/hours at a time (its not designed to do that but optimized for power saving by running variable clock speeds) .

Cars can do what they do because the chipset and instruction sets are optimized to do specific jobs - Knowing the needs and limits of their hardware. That optimization or the real life limits of hardware constrains a wide range of other processes.

Thus back to cameras - why shouldn't I be able to alter the EV compensation (or bracketing) breadth. Answer - because there is 40 years of design and operational experience that has demonstrated that using the sensor at a sub-optimal exposure produces really sub-optimal results. The irony is that you'll blame the camera and the manufacurer if you set a three shot sequence with limits at +- 5EV brackets and two of the shots are rubbish - not your own ignorance of what is possible with the sensor - or the mirror - or the power management or the buffer or whatever. You complained about not dropping the mirror during HDR - do you know if the 5DII can recock the shutter without moving the mirror? Would you pay yet more money, and add extra weight and bulk to provide a second motor just to facilitate that rather unusual circumstance - would you expect every one to pay for that extra hardware feature just to facilitate 0.5% of users. Until you know the limits of what the hardware is designed to achieve you can't get all aspirational about software control.

Do canon deliberately limit what the camera can do - of course, because they uniquely know what the hardware is capable of. If the 1D4 can do 12fps, then surely the 600D can too - its the same mirror and stuff isn't it - no its a completely different set of hardware designed to do different jobs and with different limits.

GPS has been mentioned as one feature we all love in our phones and should be in cameras. Well even I'll stretch to acknowledge that GPS might be useful if that fits in with the function of a serious tool and is not a toy. Thus I don't want the GPS to flatten the battery in 2 hrs (i.e. like some current P&S applications) - I'd want it to work indoors because that where a lot of my pictures are taken, and I'd want it to either always be right, or if it knew it was struggling to achieve a reliable spatial description - to tell me or not report a completely erroneous location. So the fun thing is that achieving many of those things I can do with my hand help GPS unit I use for trekking - it has a mix of specialist software and optimized hardware to achieve the lower power drain and processing you need to achieve the goal. However, the geoloctors I've got on my Iphone are so poor that I'll only use them in an emergency, in a city and I NEVER TRUST them. As far as I'm concerned, it was a waste of someones time trying to program the code limited by the Iphone hardware and a waste of my time and money acquiring it.

And one final thing - much is made of yielding control of camera operation to external devices - especially shutter operation. For intervalometers - fine - you program them up and away you go, but for real time control of features and especially the shutter you really don't want to get into either changing controls or firing the shutter away from the camera for most users most of the time. We celebrate top end SLRs for direct external controls of important functions. We hate slow and poorly designed menu driven UIs in P&S. How are you going to make settings changes on anything other than the camera - through a menu driven UI - even a quick well designed one will be worse than a well placed camera body button click and wheel spin. We also celebrate minimal shutter lag in serious cameras - do I really want my Iphone to spend 150ms thinking about the touchpad sequence I've just made before then translating that into a cable or bluetooth pulse (another 50ms) and finally engaging the necessary camera based hardware checks (another 100ms) before doing anything.

"I want my camera to do more software tricks" and "they'll be able to change that in firmware - its just a marketing ploy" are common and ignorant cries which forget the extraordinary specialist functions achieved by our highMP opto-mechanical electronic marvels. The hardware is designed and integrated within specific sensible operating parameters - why do you think that different operating software will change the physics of the hardware.

James

If I were telling Canon what I wanted I'd go in the opposite direction - give me a basic manual camera with the build quality of the 1Ds MarkIII, something in digital much like the old Pentax 67 (not the 67II). Take off all the auto this and that, all the frills, menus, custom functions, all that stuff - just give me something to which I can attach a lens, set a shutter speed and aperture, focus and shoot. I'd like to keep the built-in meter (but needle in a circle would be fine), Live View and ISO adjustments, maybe one or two other features I've forgotten but that's about it. And while we're at it lets forget autofocus and return to manual focus, it's what I do much of the time anyhow because those little rectangles are often not where I want to focus.

Of course such a camera would have a tiny market and would probably sell in the thousands, not the millions that Canon needs to be profitable, but I'd buy it in a heartbeat at the right price.

All sorts of products of great enlightenment come from here, Apple being a good example. I realize they're manufactured in China, but the design is American. Check out the Red video camera.