Nikon did what I hoped Canon would do...

ladru · Dec 12, 2002

Imagine;

The sensor from the D60 is capable of taking great pictures, it does not have to be bigger!
The only reason to make it bigger, is to take advantage of excisting lenses.
So for professionals who own lots of expensive lenses the 1ds makes sense.

I was allways hoping Canon would make a IX7 (the aps slr) size body with D60 or D30 sensor and a line of "small sensor" lenses. These lenses will be cheaper, have better range and are smaller.

Canon, please take a good look at Nikon and make us EF mounted small sensor lenses!

Bas Ladru

--

D30, 420EX + omnibounce, Canon 20-35USMCanon 24-85, Canon 50 F1.8MKI, Canon 35 F2, Canon 75-300 IS, Cosina 19-35, Canon 28-105, Canon 28-135, Tamron 28-300, Set of extension tubes.

Zero · Dec 12, 2002

ladru said:
Imagine;

The sensor from the D60 is capable of taking great pictures, it
does not have to be bigger!
The only reason to make it bigger, is to take advantage of
excisting lenses.
So for professionals who own lots of expensive lenses the 1ds makes
sense.

That and to give more resolution, get rid of the FOV crop and provide a brighter viewfinder.

ladru said:
I was allways hoping Canon would make a IX7 (the aps slr) size body
with D60 or D30 sensor and a line of "small sensor" lenses. These
lenses will be cheaper, have better range and are smaller.

I like the existing lenses, size and all.

ladru said:
Canon, please take a good look at Nikon and make us EF mounted
small sensor lenses!

Where did you get the idea that Nikon "changed" their lens mount or made their lenses smaller. Are you implying they did not make it bigger because they saw the value in digital 20 years ago, and Canon didn't?

--
Zero my hero

Adam-T · Dec 12, 2002

ladru said:
The sensor from the D60 is capable of taking great pictures, it
does not have to be bigger!
The only reason to make it bigger, is to take advantage of
excisting lenses.

Bigger = less noise and less problems with diffraction, check out the Dimage 7 and Olympus 5050, they're noise generators - as more pixels are crammed into a tiny sensor noise levels increase, I reckon that a full frame 35mm sensor is probably good for only 22Mp at most - Nikon have made a bad move IMO and these new lenses only cofuse their messy setup even further.. same for the Olydak, it's fate is sealed before it's even released with it's small sensor..

--
Olympus C2100UZI +B300 +A28, Canon D60, EOS7

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

FUCK DPREVIEW!! · Dec 12, 2002

ladru said:
The sensor from the D60 is capable of taking great pictures, it
does not have to be bigger!

I don't mind - the 1Ds delivers medium format quality. That's more of a benchmark than 35mm anyway, which is not really fmaous for its stunning image quality.

ladru said:
The only reason to make it bigger, is to take advantage of
excisting lenses.

But that's a very important reason! It's also interesting for amateurs to have a very good set of lenses and having the choice between digital and film bodies.

ladru said:
Canon, please take a good look at Nikon and make us EF mounted
small sensor lenses!

Canon, pllease don't. You managed to do better than Nikon in the past, so please continue this tradition in the digital age...

Andi

--
http://www.andreassteiner.net/photography

Evrim72723 · Dec 12, 2002

Andreas Steiner said:
Member said:

The sensor from the D60 is capable of taking great pictures, it
does not have to be bigger!

Click to expand...

I don't mind - the 1Ds delivers medium format quality. That's more
of a benchmark than 35mm anyway, which is not really fmaous for its
stunning image quality.

himm, millions of people were wrong, I guess?

The small lenses make sense for the wide angles and also for telephotos though... It is a curious approach.

Teppo Hytönen · Dec 12, 2002

Evrim said:
himm, millions of people were wrong, I guess?

Uh, if you refer with this to the image quality of 35mm... well, 35mm film doesn't provide 'stunning' quality. It can be great, but not stunning. Just compare to medium format

Evrim72723 said:
The small lenses make sense for the wide angles and also for
telephotos though... It is a curious approach.

It is, yeah.

Though... I haven't noticed if anyone mentioned this. If there's a fullframe 10MP X3-camera coming, and with Nikon doing this... who's making the camera? Most interesting.

--
Teppo @ Finland

FUCK DPREVIEW!! · Dec 12, 2002

Evrim72723 said:
Evrim72723 said:

1Ds delivers medium format quality. That's more
of a benchmark than 35mm anyway, which is not really fmaous for its
stunning image quality.

Click to expand...

himm, millions of people were wrong, I guess?

No, not at all - but nobody chooses 35mm for quality reasons ONYL . 35mm has tons of other qualities (like availability of materials, highly light weight / portability, speed of film transport ans so on) - expect "quality". But its quality is good enough for a lot of applications, so 35mm offers a great compromise in terms of quality, price and functionality.

Andi

--
http://www.andreassteiner.net/photography

Hugo So · Dec 12, 2002

A full frame camera like 1Ds selling at US$2-3K will kill all these APS sized DLSRs!!!

ladru said:
Imagine;

The sensor from the D60 is capable of taking great pictures, it
does not have to be bigger!
The only reason to make it bigger, is to take advantage of
excisting lenses.
So for professionals who own lots of expensive lenses the 1ds makes
sense.

I was allways hoping Canon would make a IX7 (the aps slr) size body
with D60 or D30 sensor and a line of "small sensor" lenses. These
lenses will be cheaper, have better range and are smaller.

Canon, please take a good look at Nikon and make us EF mounted
small sensor lenses!

Bas Ladru

--
D30, 420EX + omnibounce, Canon 20-35USMCanon 24-85, Canon 50
F1.8MKI, Canon 35 F2, Canon 75-300 IS, Cosina 19-35, Canon 28-105,
Canon 28-135, Tamron 28-300, Set of extension tubes.

--
http://www.URphoto.com

See my equipment experience in my profile.

iMac therefore iAm · Dec 12, 2002

For those of us who are not enlightened and have no idea what ladru is talking about, could you fill us in?

ladru said:
Imagine;

The sensor from the D60 is capable of taking great pictures, it
does not have to be bigger!
The only reason to make it bigger, is to take advantage of
excisting lenses.
So for professionals who own lots of expensive lenses the 1ds makes
sense.

I was allways hoping Canon would make a IX7 (the aps slr) size body
with D60 or D30 sensor and a line of "small sensor" lenses. These
lenses will be cheaper, have better range and are smaller.

Canon, please take a good look at Nikon and make us EF mounted
small sensor lenses!

Bas Ladru

--
D30, 420EX + omnibounce, Canon 20-35USMCanon 24-85, Canon 50
F1.8MKI, Canon 35 F2, Canon 75-300 IS, Cosina 19-35, Canon 28-105,
Canon 28-135, Tamron 28-300, Set of extension tubes.

--
Olympus C2100 UZ, Canon D60 (on order), Macintosh
Powerbook G4 500Mhz, Epson 785 EPX

t_streng@t-online.de · Dec 12, 2002

-Earlier, people had to choose if they need medium format quality or 35 mm would be enough and therefore cheaper and lighter
-Many people said, the quality I get ou of 35mm is enough for me

-today: ex-35mm lenses combined with a 1Ds give us medium format quality, which is nice, BUT if I could get 35mm film quality with a lighter and cheaper system, I would really think about it.

Why do make people buy expensiv and heavy lenses if they dodnt need such big lenses and sensors for the image size they are interested in???

Hugo So · Dec 12, 2002

The time Waiting for a full useful line of lighter lenses will (IMHO) be much longer than getting the manufacturing cost of 1DS down to a reasonable level. Besides, do you think the new lighter and smaller lens will be cheaper? I don't think so, especially in the first two years and that is from Nikon. In the end, I will lose TIME of shooting precious pictures/memories, that maney cannot buy.

Nevertheless, I do think Nikon's move will drive down Canon camera prices more dramatically, otherwise both of its lenses and camera lines will be defeated. Remember both of success of D30 and D60 are built on consumer/prosumer class that is now being attacked.

Thomas Streng said:
-Earlier, people had to choose if they need medium format quality
or 35 mm would be enough and therefore cheaper and lighter
-Many people said, the quality I get ou of 35mm is enough for me
-today: ex-35mm lenses combined with a 1Ds give us medium format
quality, which is nice, BUT if I could get 35mm film quality with a
lighter and cheaper system, I would really think about it.
Why do make people buy expensiv and heavy lenses if they dodnt need
such big lenses and sensors for the image size they are interested
in???

--
http://www.URphoto.com

See my equipment experience in my profile.

jonlg · Dec 12, 2002

the smaller framed DSLR's is what Nikon have announced a 12-24mm.
Other wise I like the FOV lengthening effect it has on telephotos.

You DON'T need a series of DX type lenses to cover all lengths, just the wideangle.
John

Gorham · Dec 12, 2002

jonlg said:
the smaller framed DSLR's is what Nikon have announced a 12-24mm.
Other wise I like the FOV lengthening effect it has on telephotos.
You DON'T need a series of DX type lenses to cover all lengths,
just the wideangle.
John

I agree. I truly love the 1.6 factor; it lets me handle lenses that'll handle distances without further breaking my back ... or bank account.

As I say, I'd love that kind or range. But why f/4? Strictly an outdoor lens? I guess actually it would be but ...

Gorham

--
Shooting Digital in Maine!
Please respond only through the forum.

Clemens Knoerzer · Dec 12, 2002

Do you think it is good for you to have a lens, you know you can't use it anymore when you upgrade you camera?

Do you think it is of interest for canon to produce a lens which is a restraint for their customer to upgrade?

I think canon should concentrate on the lens format they already have and try to make them even better.

Clemens

--
http://64.164.136.26/Portfolio/
D60, Canon: 28-135mm IS, 50mm f/1.4 Sigma: 15-30mm, 135-400mm

Richard127566 · Dec 12, 2002

Are you in Canon sales?

I personally do not want to go out and restock my lense assortment....only thing needed is a wider angle lens.....14mm gives you 22mm....not many people would need anything wider than that....
--
-- dive

Kbone · Dec 12, 2002

iMac said:
For those of us who are not enlightened and have no idea what ladru
is talking about, could you fill us in?

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0212/02121201nikondxlenses.asp
--

Canon D60, BG-ED3, 50mm f/1.8, 28-135mm IS/USM, 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro, 420EX, Alien Bees monolights, Sekonic L358 flash meter, Sunpak PZ5000AF, Epson 2200
See some of my photographs at:
http://pages.cthome.net/cassella/index.htm

Calvin Chann · Dec 12, 2002

This is all well and good, but what happens when Nikon go full frame sensor? This can't be too far off now that Canon have done it.

So when you sell your D1, D1X, D1H and D100, what then, do you sell your DX Nikkor lenses as well?

When you've upgraded from the D1, D1X, D1H and D100 to a ful frame sensor DSLR from Nikon, wull you need a lens that wide anymore? I think not.

This is a short term solution to a short term problem. Problem is, how expensive is it likely to be if Nikon have to recover their development costs from a small and short marketing period?

Kbone said:
iMac said:

For those of us who are not enlightened and have no idea what ladru
is talking about, could you fill us in?

Click to expand...

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0212/02121201nikondxlenses.asp
--
Canon D60, BG-ED3, 50mm f/1.8, 28-135mm IS/USM, 100mm f/2.8 USM
Macro, 420EX, Alien Bees monolights, Sekonic L358 flash meter,
Sunpak PZ5000AF, Epson 2200
See some of my photographs at:
http://pages.cthome.net/cassella/index.htm

hyslopc1 · Dec 12, 2002

While this announcement is probably (depending on price) great for non-pro (it's f4) Nikon DSLR owners in the short-term, it's got to be depressing for them from a long-term perspective. Basically Nikon has admitted defeat - they are saying that they will not be able to release a full-frame camera in the medium-term, if ever, and essentially abandoning their excellent lens line. What I can't believe is that they didn't simultaneously announce an enhanced electrical interface - it would seem to be an ideal time to finally make the switch from the ancient lens-body interface they have been sticking to for so long.

If this is a one-off stop-gap for current owners who need something cheap and wide, then I think it's great, but a whole new lens line? It doesn't make much sense. There are many benefits to having a full-frame 35mm sensor besides the obvious benefit of more MP (taking the 1Ds as an example). Definitely the larger the pixel size, the lower the noise levels. I'm no expert on the optical issues of 35mm vs 23mm glass - anyone care to comment on that?

In looks like it will be a LONG time before Nikon has anything that even remotely challenges the Canon digital system. Let's look at the top-of-the-line pro system from both manufacturers, including the new lens announced today:

Canon's best (all available now):
1Ds 11MP, 3fps, 10 frame RAW+JPEG buffer
16-35/2.8 USM
24-70/2.8 USM
70-200/2.8 USM IS

Nikon's best (as of next Spring, all lenses adjusted for 1.5 crop):
D1X 6MP, 3fps, 14 frame RAW buffer (with RAM upgrade)
18-36/4 AF-S
25-52/2.8 AF-S
42-105/2.8 AF-S
120-300/2.8 AF-S

The Canon system offers almost twice the resolution, with continuous f2.8 coverage from 16mm right up to 200mm, and IS from 70mm upwards. Nikon can't do f2.8 below 25mm, can't go below 18mm at all, and has no image stabilisation. Most people would agree that the 1Ds has better AF than the D1X as well. On the surface it looks like the only place where the Nikon system pulls ahead is above 200mm but considering the MP difference, that's actually not the case: a x1.5 crop of an 11MP 200mm 1Ds image will give you a better final result than the D1X's 6MP 300mm image.

I haven't added up the cost of these two systems, there are only three Canon lenses compared to Nikon's four, but the Canon body is a lot more expensive. You could take the Canon cost down a bit by going for the 28-70 instead. I'd guess that the Canon system is significantly more expensive, but it's a heck of a lot better!

hyslopc1 · Dec 12, 2002

I agree with everything you wrote. Nikon has recognized that they cannot fight the 1Ds, so they have given up the high ground and are throwing everything they have at the prosumer category, which is a wise move. If Canon doesn't release any new DSLRs before next Spring, then this new Nikon lens will definitely make the D100 a far more attractive proposition price/performance wise.

At this point, Nikon's nightmare would be either or both of the following happening before next Spring:
1) Canon releasing an affordable ultra-wide zoom.
2) Canon releasing a D60 replacement with 1.3x (or larger) sensor.

Hugo So said:
Nevertheless, I do think Nikon's move will drive down Canon camera
prices more dramatically, otherwise both of its lenses and camera
lines will be defeated. Remember both of success of D30 and D60
are built on consumer/prosumer class that is now being attacked.

Thomas Streng said:

-Earlier, people had to choose if they need medium format quality
or 35 mm would be enough and therefore cheaper and lighter
-Many people said, the quality I get ou of 35mm is enough for me
-today: ex-35mm lenses combined with a 1Ds give us medium format
quality, which is nice, BUT if I could get 35mm film quality with a
lighter and cheaper system, I would really think about it.
Why do make people buy expensiv and heavy lenses if they dodnt need
such big lenses and sensors for the image size they are interested
in???

Click to expand...

--
http://www.URphoto.com

See my equipment experience in my profile.

Derek Clarke · Dec 12, 2002

The limited maximum aperture is what keeps the front element sane.

Even with the restricted coverage circle there is still the ful 35mm back focus, and a wider aperture lens would have to have a much bigger front element to avoid vignetting.

Gorham said:
jonlg said:

the smaller framed DSLR's is what Nikon have announced a 12-24mm.
Other wise I like the FOV lengthening effect it has on telephotos.
You DON'T need a series of DX type lenses to cover all lengths,
just the wideangle.
John

Click to expand...

I agree. I truly love the 1.6 factor; it lets me handle lenses
that'll handle distances without further breaking my back ... or
bank account.

As I say, I'd love that kind or range. But why f/4? Strictly an
outdoor lens? I guess actually it would be but ...

Gorham

--
Shooting Digital in Maine!
Please respond only through the forum.

--
Derek

Nikon did what I hoped Canon would do...

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