1D or couple of lenses?

I often take pictures in equestrian arenas that are poorly lit. With my current equipment that means high ISO and low shutter speeds to try to catch the action. I'm currently using a D30 with a 50/1.4, 28-135IS and a 100-400IS. Flash is not an option at most of the shows.

Question: Would I be better off purchasing a 1D and continue using my current lenses, or a 24-70/2.8 and the 70-200/2.8IS to go with my D30?

I'm not too happy with the D30s ISO 1600 performance, and I've reluctantly learned to live with it's autofocus issues, but it's resolution/file size has been adequate for the largest prints I make (8x10). Budget restraints mean I cannot do both!

I'm not a pro, just love taking pictures, especially of my children!

For those who've been in a similar situation, I would appreciate your input on your experience.

Thanks, Steve

.. you are having problems with out of focus shot or completely missed shots due to inability to focus lock. If that's the case, the great lenses you have mentioned won't help you at all. In fact, the lenses you have are quite good.

I think the 1D would provide the most dramatic improvement in shooting equestrian events. In the end, you may still want the lenses, but I would suggest that if you are looking for a marked improvement in the percentage of quality shots the 1D would be a better move. A bit more expensive one as well, unfortuneatly.
Regards,
Steve

Steve Wells said:

I often take pictures in equestrian arenas that are poorly lit.
With my current equipment that means high ISO and low shutter
speeds to try to catch the action. I'm currently using a D30 with
a 50/1.4, 28-135IS and a 100-400IS. Flash is not an option at most
of the shows.

Question: Would I be better off purchasing a 1D and continue using
my current lenses, or a 24-70/2.8 and the 70-200/2.8IS to go with
my D30?

I'm not too happy with the D30s ISO 1600 performance, and I've
reluctantly learned to live with it's autofocus issues, but it's
resolution/file size has been adequate for the largest prints I
make (8x10). Budget restraints mean I cannot do both!

I'm not a pro, just love taking pictures, especially of my children!

For those who've been in a similar situation, I would appreciate
your input on your experience.

Thanks, Steve

Click to expand...

You have to ask yourself.... what currently is in need of fixing ?

You've identified two areas.... you'd like a lower noise ISO 1600 and you'de like better AF. The 1D would easily give you both.

I'm not sure why you would feel the need for the 24-70 when you already have a 50/1.4 and 28-135. I can't see that much of a need for wide-angle at equestrian events and 70mm is short for an arena. What focal length do you find yourself using with the 100-400 ? Much past 200mm ? Going to the 70-200 would at best allow you to maybe use ISO 800/1000 on the D30 but at greatly reduced focal length.

It's definitely a set of compromises. My advice ? You get immediate ISO 1600 performance improvements and increase the number of in-focus "keepers" with the 1D... not to mention 8fps for the jumps when you need it. You can always get the 70-200IS down the the road when you eventually sell the D30 and then have BOTH. I'd skip the 24-70 for now.

Steve Wells said:

I often take pictures in equestrian arenas that are poorly lit.
With my current equipment that means high ISO and low shutter
speeds to try to catch the action. I'm currently using a D30 with
a 50/1.4, 28-135IS and a 100-400IS. Flash is not an option at most
of the shows.

Question: Would I be better off purchasing a 1D and continue using
my current lenses, or a 24-70/2.8 and the 70-200/2.8IS to go with
my D30?

I'm not too happy with the D30s ISO 1600 performance, and I've
reluctantly learned to live with it's autofocus issues, but it's
resolution/file size has been adequate for the largest prints I
make (8x10). Budget restraints mean I cannot do both!

I'm not a pro, just love taking pictures, especially of my children!

For those who've been in a similar situation, I would appreciate
your input on your experience.

Thanks, Steve

Click to expand...

I had a D30 for a year, almost all of my photos taken of my 4 kids in their various sports. Did I want to spend $4,300 just to get better AF, faster FPS and better quality at high ISO's? No, but 30 years from now I'll be glad I did. I went for the 1D, a 70-200L 2.8 non-is and a Sigma 24-70 DX 2.8. Would I rather have the 70-200 IS and 24-70L and 300 L 2.8? Yup, but I'll have thousands of pics taken by the time I do that.

The 1D has increased my keeper rate by 3 to 4 times over the D30, so I'm happy. BROKE, but happy. And like I said, 30 years from now the cost will be forgotten, but all the keepers I've got of kids will be as bright then as they are today...

Steve Wells said:

I often take pictures in equestrian arenas that are poorly lit.
With my current equipment that means high ISO and low shutter
speeds to try to catch the action. I'm currently using a D30 with
a 50/1.4, 28-135IS and a 100-400IS. Flash is not an option at most
of the shows.

Question: Would I be better off purchasing a 1D and continue using
my current lenses, or a 24-70/2.8 and the 70-200/2.8IS to go with
my D30?

I'm not too happy with the D30s ISO 1600 performance, and I've
reluctantly learned to live with it's autofocus issues, but it's
resolution/file size has been adequate for the largest prints I
make (8x10). Budget restraints mean I cannot do both!

I'm not a pro, just love taking pictures, especially of my children!

For those who've been in a similar situation, I would appreciate
your input on your experience.

Thanks, Steve

Click to expand...

John-G said:

You have to ask yourself.... what currently is in need of fixing ?

Click to expand...

Great points, thank you for your response. I was looking at the faster aperature of 2.8 and hoping I could reduce the ISO on the D30. I bought the 50/1.4 for the same reason, but found it was much too short for 95% of the shots.

I guess I should research the amount of improvement from the D30 to the 1D at ISO 1600. From the responses, it sounds like a substantial improvement that makes it a usable setting.

Again, thank you for your input!

Steve

Phil B. said:

The 1D has increased my keeper rate by 3 to 4 times over the D30,
so I'm happy. BROKE, but happy. And like I said, 30 years from
now the cost will be forgotten, but all the keepers I've got of
kids will be as bright then as they are today...

Click to expand...

This is the EXACT rational that I use to justify my photography hobby to the wife! Too funny!

I also have a high rate of non-keepers with the D30 during soccer season. I've been trying to compensate by overshooting, but it is frustrating saying "that would have great if it were in focus..." as I'm hitting the delete key while sorting the images.

Thanks for you input, and even though I joke about rationalizing my photography purchases, I couldn't agree with you more. The memories are priceless.

Steve

Steve said:

.. you are having problems with out of focus shot or completely
missed shots due to inability to focus lock. If that's the case,
the great lenses you have mentioned won't help you at all. In
fact, the lenses you have are quite good.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's really two areas that I'm having problems with; focus and low light performance. I sounds as if the 1D could help if not solve both. Maybe I will wait until another year to consider a faster lens and hope the 1D helps me out this year.

Thank you for responding!

Steve

Yup, been there, done that! Soccer and ice hockey were the most frustrating. The 8 FPS is absolutely awesome... just get at least 1 gig microdrives or flash cards cause you'll need them!

Steve Wells said:

Phil B. said:

The 1D has increased my keeper rate by 3 to 4 times over the D30,
so I'm happy. BROKE, but happy. And like I said, 30 years from
now the cost will be forgotten, but all the keepers I've got of
kids will be as bright then as they are today...

Click to expand...

This is the EXACT rational that I use to justify my photography
hobby to the wife! Too funny!

I also have a high rate of non-keepers with the D30 during soccer
season. I've been trying to compensate by overshooting, but it is
frustrating saying "that would have great if it were in focus..."
as I'm hitting the delete key while sorting the images.

Thanks for you input, and even though I joke about rationalizing my
photography purchases, I couldn't agree with you more. The
memories are priceless.

Steve

Click to expand...

.. you might consider trading the 100-400 for the 70-200 2.8L. Unless you're using the longer lens alot you would benefit from the shorter, brighter lens. If your 100-400 is in good condition you could probably trade or sell it for a new 70-200 (non-IS) and come out even or ahead.
Regards,
Steve

Steve Wells said:

Steve said:

.. you are having problems with out of focus shot or completely
missed shots due to inability to focus lock. If that's the case,
the great lenses you have mentioned won't help you at all. In
fact, the lenses you have are quite good.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's really two areas that I'm having problems with; focus
and low light performance. I sounds as if the 1D could help if not
solve both. Maybe I will wait until another year to consider a
faster lens and hope the 1D helps me out this year.

Thank you for responding!

Steve

Click to expand...

The 1D is an exceptional camera, but I don't care for it's high ASA output. For that matter I don't care for the D60's eithier & I doubt I would like the D30's.

The events your shooting at don't require blazing AF since you can easily pre-focus where you know the action will be. I would start with faster prime lenses. A 85 f1.8 or 135 f/2 should suit your needs well & will AF faster while allowing a lower ASA.

Regards,
CLTHRS

Steve Wells said:

John-G said:

You have to ask yourself.... what currently is in need of fixing ?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Since I used the D30 for 2 years and then went to the 1D earlier this year... I kind of mirrored your situation.

Steven Wells said:

Great points, thank you for your response. I was looking at the
faster aperature of 2.8 and hoping I could reduce the ISO on the
D30. I bought the 50/1.4 for the same reason, but found it was
much too short for 95% of the shots.

Click to expand...

This is why I was saying I didn't see a real need for the 24-70. If 50 is too short, 70mm will be also. But... having just said that, keep in mind the D30 has a 1.6X magnification factor and the 1D is 1.3X. So review your images and get a feel for what focal length you use most often and compare that with the 1.3X of the 1D.

Steven Wells said:

I guess I should research the amount of improvement from the D30 to
the 1D at ISO 1600. From the responses, it sounds like a
substantial improvement that makes it a usable setting.

Click to expand...

Been there, done that. The 1D is much better than the D30. I'm currently using the 1D for shooting indoor soccer in what could best be described as a "cave". I'm using the 70-200IS (I also have a 100-400IS) and I find ISO 1600 is a MUST to get useable shutter speeds. Shutter speeds run around 1/180 to 1/200 at ISO 1600 and f/2.8. The real enemy of ISO 1600 is underexposure. If exposed properly (or maybe + 1/3) the noise is very manageable. If the image is underexposed the noise will get nasty when you adjust the levels in PS. The 1D AF is very good even in this cave. So good in fact that I can actually use auto AF point selection in AI Servo. The f/2.8 helps of course. This dark venue with kids running around makes the f5.6 of the 100-400 impossible.

With my D30 and 100-400 I shot baseball, outdoor soccer, cross country, auto racing, and equestrian and I can tell you one thing... going to the 1D was the best move I ever made. Prior to the D30 I had been using a 1V film camera so was completely spoiled by great AF. With the 1D I am "home again!".

Get the 1D now.... then sell the D30 and buy a 70-200.

If you email me I will show you some of my ISO 1600 soccer pix.

Steven Wells said:

Again, thank you for your input!

Steve

Click to expand...

If I were in your situation, I might go with the lenses, but probably not the ones you're looking at. It sounds like, except for the 50/1.4, the glass you have is very good, but slow. The two zooms you're looking at are faster, but if that's what you're after ... why not go for gusto?

Zooms can be convenient, but I think fast primes are a lot more versatile. I've managed to get shots with my 50/1.4 when I couldn't see through the viewfinder to focus or compose with my 16-35L ... and that's at f/2.8.

If you can live without zooms, I would look into lenses like the fabled 135/2 -- a full stop faster than either zoom you're considering, and very sharp even at f/2. The 85/1.8 gets very good marks, too ... although the 135 is one of the best in Canon's line-up. I'm not sure how you could cover the long end -- a 200/1.8 is very, very expensive, and just as heavy.

Anyway, it's something to think about.

Steve Wells said:

I often take pictures in equestrian arenas that are poorly lit.
With my current equipment that means high ISO and low shutter
speeds to try to catch the action. I'm currently using a D30 with
a 50/1.4, 28-135IS and a 100-400IS. Flash is not an option at most
of the shows.

Question: Would I be better off purchasing a 1D and continue using
my current lenses, or a 24-70/2.8 and the 70-200/2.8IS to go with
my D30?

I'm not too happy with the D30s ISO 1600 performance, and I've
reluctantly learned to live with it's autofocus issues, but it's
resolution/file size has been adequate for the largest prints I
make (8x10). Budget restraints mean I cannot do both!

I'm not a pro, just love taking pictures, especially of my children!

For those who've been in a similar situation, I would appreciate
your input on your experience.

Thanks, Steve

Click to expand...

I'd go for the couple of lenses - they'll be with you forever, the 1D is going to be replaced sooner or later with a fast FPS camera with a proper CMOS sensor (probably about 8Mp at a guess) it's about due, also the 1DS for most is probably the better upgrade from a D30 and it won't be £7000 forever..

The D30 is a great camera, I'd ,make the most of it with some classy "L" glass and see what happens..

--
Olympus C2100UZI +B300 +A28, Canon D60, EOS7

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

Got to dis-agree with you. Equestrian events do need real fast AF. Prefocusing really isn't an answer since your shooting at such a high ap the DOF is restricted and you will miss a lot of shots. They keep barns real dark at these events. I would say go for the 1D. The AF will help out a ton. I have a D-30 and am probably going to make the same switch and the extra res will provide ample enough information for an 11x14. I would like the 1Ds but this is just the beginning of a business for me and as yet can't justify the 8G.

Dave

CLTHRS said:

The 1D is an exceptional camera, but I don't care for it's high ASA
output. For that matter I don't care for the D60's eithier & I
doubt I would like the D30's.

The events your shooting at don't require blazing AF since you can
easily pre-focus where you know the action will be. I would start
with faster prime lenses. A 85 f1.8 or 135 f/2 should suit your
needs well & will AF faster while allowing a lower ASA.

Regards,
CLTHRS

Click to expand...

--
Dave

http://www.gammadesignstudios.com/gallery.htm

You really don't know where the action is going to be? If your only reponding to the action then the 1D is the best answer, but sports photographers usually know where they should be concentrating ahead of time for these type of situations.

Regards,
CLTHRS

Steve said:

.. you might consider trading the 100-400 for the 70-200 2.8L.
Unless you're using the longer lens alot you would benefit from the
shorter, brighter lens. If your 100-400 is in good condition you
could probably trade or sell it for a new 70-200 (non-IS) and come
out even or ahead.
Regards,
Steve

Click to expand...

I LOVE that lens! Couldn't part with it if I tried! It really works great for the outdoor arenas and for soccer. Plus I have an obsession with wildlife and use it to stalk animals at every opportunity! Thanks for the input though!

Steve

Phil B. said:

Yup, been there, done that! Soccer and ice hockey were the most
frustrating. The 8 FPS is absolutely awesome... just get at least
1 gig microdrives or flash cards cause you'll need them!

Click to expand...

8 FPS will absolutely kill me! I'm horrible about culling images even now at 3FPS. When it comes to family shots, even if the composition isn't good, if it's in focus and exposure is workable, it's a keeper because they are memories. Then I copy just one or two of the best from each shoot to another directory as the "printers".

After being digital since the Nikon CP950 came out, my cd and hard drive collection is monsterous! The only sharp images I can bring myself to delete are the duplicates when shooting continuous if the face or expression hasn't changed, but even then my hand shakes when reaching for the delete key!

I guess I will need to work on my editting/cutting skills and not look back.

Steve

CLTHRS said:

You really don't know where the action is going to be? If your only
reponding to the action then the 1D is the best answer, but sports
photographers usually know where they should be concentrating ahead
of time for these type of situations.

Regards,
CLTHRS

Click to expand...

It's not so much as knowing were the action is going to be, you generally know where the rider will be positioned + - 5 feet or so, but they are moving quite fast at times which means manual focusing or one shot are unusable.

AI Servo problems are really the position of the focus sensors for me. Composition wise, the horse will generally be were the focus sensors are in the D30, but the rider's face is a full 3+ feet above that point. Unless it's a direct flank shot, the shallow depth of field using telephoto with a large aperature usually means the rider will not the the sharpest area in the picture. I've tried to select either the right or left sensor on the D30 and keep that point on the same plane as the rider, around their leg on frontal and quartering shots, but its hard and seldom seems to work, especially if its not outdoors in the day.

Vertical composition partially solves the focal point problem, I can keep the upper on the face, but now it's a bullseye shot that either has be be severly cropped which quickly reduces how big of a print I can make and how well the riders face stands out, or part of the horse may be out of the frame. So while I can achieve the focus point I want, I do not get many usable pix this way.

I guess the draw to the 1D for me is to have sensors in the upper left and right of the frame controlling focus. From what I've read on the 1D focus system, it would allow me to lock on to the riders face, recompose and maintain that same point in focus as it moves across the frame. Or I could manually select a focus point in the upper left/right.

Again, thank you for your input. Everyone's ideas and thoughts are helping me think thru my decision and are a valuable resource.

Steve

I've got one as well, and use it for outdoor sports and nature photography as well. Buy as we've shifted to indoor sports I find myself wishing I had a lens with similar reach but no less than f2.8. Or maybe even a 70-200/1.8 or 2.0! Sadly just wishful thinking.
Good luck,
Steve

Steve Wells said:

Steve said:

.. you might consider trading the 100-400 for the 70-200 2.8L.
Unless you're using the longer lens alot you would benefit from the
shorter, brighter lens. If your 100-400 is in good condition you
could probably trade or sell it for a new 70-200 (non-IS) and come
out even or ahead.
Regards,
Steve

Click to expand...

I LOVE that lens! Couldn't part with it if I tried! It really
works great for the outdoor arenas and for soccer. Plus I have an
obsession with wildlife and use it to stalk animals at every
opportunity! Thanks for the input though!

Steve

Click to expand...

Forrest said:

If you can live without zooms, I would look into lenses like the
fabled 135/2 -- a full stop faster than either zoom you're
considering, and very sharp even at f/2. The 85/1.8 gets very good
marks, too ... although the 135 is one of the best in Canon's
line-up. I'm not sure how you could cover the long end -- a
200/1.8 is very, very expensive, and just as heavy.

Anyway, it's something to think about.

Click to expand...

Although I am partial to zooms, I will look into the 135/f2. Talking with other forum members here has made me analyze my shooting a little more and the focus sensors in the 1D are tipping the scales for me.

135 is a little short for some events, but that just means I have to move around a little more and not be so lazy!

I dont know what the 200/1.8 goes for, but it sounds like it would eat quite a bit of my budget and not provide me with much flexibility. I would imagine the depth of field at 1.8 on a target 50' away would be an inch, maybe two?

Thanks for pointing me toward the 135/f2 option. I'll have a look...

Steve